[Warlord] Project Z News & Rumors: Dec 2 Pre-Order Spec Ops Compound Deal (p 15)

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**AlexHolker**

CptJake wrote:
Not many games call for 30 male and 30 female survivors. Not many modern games played in 28mm need dozens of troops, most are squad to platoon minus level.

It isn't like ancients or black powder era games where masses of troops are needed. Packaging the figures to better suit players of the types of games the figures are being bought for makes a lot of sense.

But it doesn't better suit them. One sprue doesn't even give you ten survivors, it gives you one kid, one overweight survivor, and eight other survivors with a variety of outfits. Don't want skirts and high heels? You're down to six per sprue.

Put thirty models in the box and it doesn't matter so much if a third of it is dead weight. Put only ten in the box and charge 15 pounds for it and the diversity becomes a liability instead of an asset.

**NewTruthNeomaxim**

Yeah... looking at the 30-count boxes, I plan to cut the hat off of a female model to make Not-Carl, but in a box of ten it means that same head is now not available to me to use on a female survivor.

If for the same price (largely) I can have both options, I will always jump at the one that benefits me as the consumer.

Again, if I find an online seller with a killer discount on this whole bundle I might still consider it, but i'll probably just be doing this piece-meal now.

**Tyr13**

Gallahad wrote:
CptJake wrote:
Gallahad wrote:
Those prices kill my interest in the game and miniatures. The plastic spec ops look nice, but not that nice. Several of the poses are fairly awkward, further decreasing the value to me. It is so backwards to try and sell hips plastic miniatures in smaller numbers for higher prices.

Not many games call for 30 male and 30 female survivors. Not many modern games played in 28mm need dozens of troops, most are squad to platoon minus level.

It isn't like ancients or black powder era games where masses of troops are needed. Packaging the figures to better suit players of the types of games the figures are being bought for makes a lot of sense.

I wasn't making a comment about the number of miniatures per box, but the price per miniature. I think it makes perfect sense to package them in groups of ten. What doesn't make sense is pricing middling quality plastics in a price range where you are competing with metals. The practice of pricing plastics in the "sell less sprues for more money" range is that you are trying to make money off of keeping your already low production costs a tiny bit lower. You are trying to squeeze margins out of tiny costs instead of blowing your competition out of the water with market penetrating volume and price. Warlord probably saved $0.50-$1.00 by not including another sprue of bodies in the box. I was interested in picking up a couple boxes of the special forces to play Osprey's "Special Ops" game. Not anymore. I can buy miniatures I have a more pressing need for at those prices.

Except it doesnt cost Warlord $.50 - $1. It costs them selling another box. Possibly even selling a single box, after all, these are mainly meant as boosters for the starter set. Some people might actually be put off by having to buy 20 models just to get 3-4 more survivors they actually want/need.

As to the question of why they didnt just lower the price... economies of scale dont really work that well if each customer is unlikely to buy more than one box apiece. These models werent put into HIPS because WGF/WL wanted to sell them in huge amounts (well, theyd still like to, I suppose, but its unlikely and they know it). Theyre HIPS because people prefer using plastic over metal, for ease of converting, transporting, resilience.
Making them cheap just doesnt make sense from any perspective apart from consumers. And even they should generally be okay.

Just my 2c.

**ced1106**

"The reason that God was able to create the world in seven days is that he didn't have to worry about the installed base." -Enzo Torresi

Project Z wasn't made in a vacuum. It's a zombie game in an oversaturated market, and it uses Wargames Factory miniatures. Wargames Factory miniatures are known for three things: good sculpts, cheap prices, multitude of parts to assemble. Guess which one stands out in a market that's (pun intended) buried in zombie miniatures. If Project Z wasn't attached to Wargames Factory, I think it could more easily set whatever prices and format it wanted to, but then would have to stand alone as a zombie miniatures game. Does the present gaming market really have enough interest in another zombie game to support it? I know as a boardgamer, the zombie boardgame market is pretty much saturated. CMON's release of Zombicide: Black Plague shows that they're spreading out from the modern-day zombie genre.

**NewTruthNeomaxim**

ced1106 wrote:
"The reason that God was able to create the world in seven days is that he didn't have to worry about the installed base." -Enzo Torresi

Project Z wasn't made in a vacuum. It's a zombie game in an oversaturated market, and it uses Wargames Factory miniatures. Wargames Factory miniatures are known for three things: good sculpts, cheap prices, multitude of parts to assemble. Guess which one stands out in a market that's (pun intended) buried in zombie miniatures. If Project Z wasn't attached to Wargames Factory, I think it could more easily set whatever prices and format it wanted to, but then would have to stand alone as a zombie miniatures game. Does the present gaming market really have enough interest in another zombie game to support it? I know as a boardgamer, the zombie boardgame market is pretty much saturated. CMON's release of Zombicide: Black Plague shows that they're spreading out from the modern-day zombie genre.

Except a weekend's worth of research shows that the war-gaming side of zombie games is much leaner... with MAYBE two decent campaign/skirmish games, both of which are super indie affairs. Given great rules this game could do well on its own merits beyond models alone.

The only problem is... they're asking us to preorder, currently, with ZERO information regarding said rules. :-p

**Pacific**

There is a post by a Warlord staffer on the Warlord Games forum with some interesting tit-bits (http://www.warlordgames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=24161)

Yikes! Lots of activity and interest - keep it coming, guys!

Ok... to address a few points raised...

There's more info on the way - building up to the release... I'm angling to film a gameplay video in the coming weeks - most likely a Battle Report, showing the game in action... keep watching the Warlord Facebook page and Newsletters... I'll also keep you Forumites updated on this...

With regards to product releases, and whether individual sprues will be available... as yet, I believe we're still working-out the exact details...

There are plans for scenery, and I've seen some awesome things around the Warlord web office... we also work closely with a number of scenery manufacturers, so there *may* be even more stuff in-the-works.... you won't be disappointed, trust me!

Salute - I believe there'll be a demo game where you can try to game first-hand... and you'll be able to pick-up a copy of the game (and probably a number of the expansion kits) exclusively from the Warlord stand. We'll take as much stock as we can fit into the vans, but make sure you head over to the stand early to ensure you grab your copy...
The plan is to ship-out the 'Complete Zombie Bundle' pre-orders ahead of Salute, so that pre-orderers (is that a real word?!) will be the first people to get their hands on the game....

By all means keep the questions coming!

Rich.D

**NewTruthNeomaxim**

Fingers crossed regarding rules insights or a bat-rep in the next couple of weeks.

As it stands, its sort of a non-Kickstarter, Kickstarter, as I would have to go in hard for the bundle to ensure getting some of all of those sets early, but with gameplay being sight-unseen. :-p

I'm also worried if I hesitate too much, remaining WGF boxes will dry up, and I won't have too many options BUT direct from Warlord.

**BobtheInquisitor**

CptJake wrote:
Gallahad wrote:
Those prices kill my interest in the game and miniatures. The plastic spec ops look nice, but not that nice. Several of the poses are fairly awkward, further decreasing the value to me. It is so backwards to try and sell hips plastic miniatures in smaller numbers for higher prices.

Not many games call for 30 male and 30 female survivors. Not many modern games played in 28mm need dozens of troops, most are squad to platoon minus level.

It isn't like ancients or black powder era games where masses of troops are needed. Packaging the figures to better suit players of the types of games the figures are being bought for makes a lot of sense.

That seems like a myopic and market-blind approach to selling miniatures. Why try to snag more customers or steal some other game's thunder with your can't-miss sets when you can just charge too much for okay-to-decent plastics? I guess that approach worked for Frostgrave, though...right?

It seems like they're skipping Mantic's early period, when people actually bought their minis at retail because they were a good deal, and moved straight to Mantic's mid and later periods (sans Kickstarter).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyr13 wrote:

Except it doesnt cost Warlord $.50 - $1. It costs them selling another box.

And how many consumers will buy 0 boxes instead of 1+ now? Probably more than will buy multiple boxes at obvious rip-off pricing. Customers who are immune to price hikes will probably stay with GW.

Possibly even selling a single box, after all, these are mainly meant as boosters for the starter set. Some people might actually be put off by having to buy 20 models just to get 3-4 more survivors they actually want/need.

That makes no sense at all. You're saying people would have a problem paying $25ish for 30 minis because of the 20 extra, but wouldn't have a problem paying the exact same amount for 10?

As to the question of why they didnt just lower the price... economies of scale dont really work that well if each customer is unlikely to buy more than one box apiece. These models werent put into HIPS because WGF/WL wanted to sell them in huge amounts (well, theyd still like to, I suppose, but its unlikely and they know it). Theyre HIPS because people prefer using plastic over metal, for ease of converting, transporting, resilience.
Making them cheap just doesnt make sense from any perspective apart from consumers. And even they should generally be okay.

Just my 2c.

They haven't tried using the economy of scale with their own worldwide distribution and a game. WGF never had a game for their minis, nor very good distribution. Still, they were a staple of many gamers' armies. Those days are probably gone now.

**timd**

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

I'm also worried if I hesitate too much, remaining WGF boxes will dry up, and I won't have too many options BUT direct from Warlord.

Already happening. All boxes are Out of Stock from Miniature Market. Still some Women Survivors and male zombies at Warstore.

T

**GrimDork**

Amazon too, and they once were a pretty sweet price there (which is atypical for wargaming/miniatures). Skip the male zombies, they don't scale well with the rest of the range. Maybe ok for bits swaps and prone corpses, but more than a few mixed in with other zombies and you'll have a disproportionate amount of short dudes.

**NewTruthNeomaxim**

timd wrote:
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

I'm also worried if I hesitate too much, remaining WGF boxes will dry up, and I won't have too many options BUT direct from Warlord.

Already happening. All boxes are Out of Stock from Miniature Market. Still some Women Survivors and male zombies at Warstore.

T

Oh hell... It isn't worth waiting on it. Ebay still has a handful left from good sellers for $25 or so... I don't doubt I can do some cool hobby things with all those modular bits, and honestly... i'll just buy a biker gang and spec-ops box or two once they hit retail.

That bundle just isn't the value I would hope for when I can still buy literally the same survivors for double(ish) the value to myself.

**judgedoug**

Did Warlord announces prices for anything other than the mega set yet, or did I miss something?

**Azazelx**

I dunno. After examination it seems like the pricing model on this stuff is much more GoA than Bolt Action, Black Powder or Hail Caesar.

Whether that's due to a lack of competition on these models - Romans and Hussars are easy to find from a variety of manufacturers in plastic or metal from a variety of eras, but the Zombie Survivor market isn't exactly tight with high quality stuff from Hasslefree, etc.

Basically, WGF's pricing was pretty good for what it was, but it seems like they weren't exactly making much money doing it. I'd ave been happy with regular Warlord Games pricing on the new stuff, which would have resulted in buying lots of moderns and bikers, simply because.

But, you know. I can get very nice moderns from Eureka and Empress. I can get survivors from Hasslefree. I can (presumably) get the rules from Warlord, and I've already got more zombies than I'll ever need. The only "hard" part is bikers, and I've got plenty of unmounted bikers from the old Grenadier ranges sculpted by Mark Copplestone, which are still available from a variety of sources. Leaving bikers on bikes, and doing 2 versions (mounted, unmounted) of biker individuals.

**BobtheInquisitor**

judgedoug wrote:
Did Warlord announces prices for anything other than the mega set yet, or did I miss something?

A retailer lists the box prices in pounds that would translate into $20-something. Boxes have one sprue of figures plus the option sprue, so 10 minis. If you have better information, please share it.

**MrMoustaffa**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
judgedoug wrote:
Did Warlord announces prices for anything other than the mega set yet, or did I miss something?

A retailer lists the box prices in pounds that would translate into $20-something. Boxes have one sprue of figures plus the option sprue, so 10 minis. If you have better information, please share it.

Wow that's like a 1/3rd of the value of the original boxes by WGF, I really hope that's wrong.

**JoshInJapan**

All this talk of horrible repricing pushed me over the edge. I ended up having to order from overseas, but I have one of each set of survivors coming. Interestingly, none of the survivors appear to be available at any of the hobby stores here that do online ordering.

**ingtaer**

Male and female survivors and 'zombie horde' boxes are US$24.
Boxed game is US$50 and the biker gang is US$40.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
No news on the modern soldiers yet.

**Gallahad**

ingtaer wrote:
Male and female survivors and 'zombie horde' boxes are US$24.
Boxed game is US$50 and the biker gang is US$40.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
No news on the modern soldiers yet.

Don't forget, that is for ten miniatures (survivors and zombies, idk others). Those are GW level prices.

**ingtaer**

Yeah mate, Judgedoug asked earlier but I forgot to add the quote.
As for GW prices, well in the US maybe, in NZ that's a bargain in comparison.
Though I really don't get the pricing on the bikers, as I understand it they are two bikes with four models on foot for near the price of twenty foot models? Seems excessive for what they are, although the bikes themselves look pretty nice.

**CptJake**

I think the biker set comes with the leader sprue as well.

**judgedoug**

From today's newsletter (edited to add original size pics, pics on website are reduced size)

SHOWCASE: PROJECT Z

Fight to survive in the abandoned streets of a post-apocalyptic world infested by unnatural creatures hungry for your flesh.

Take control of Survivors or a Street Gang in the fight to survive against the environment and an ever-growing horde of Zombies!

Scavenge for scarce supplies whilst battling against the dead and the living alike; there are no laws, there are no rules, only the fight.

Superb plastic multi-part models just oozing with detail and extras from Wargames Factory

Complete fast play rules for skirmishing against the horde, or each other!

A mere fence will not stop the unrelenting nightmare, fight the fear & fight the dead!

Strike a pose whilst defending your brothers & sisters in a fight that has no end!

How will you make your last stand?

PRE-ORDER NOW FOR SHIPPING EARLY APRIL –

The Complete Zombie bundle deal contains the full Project Z range (main game and one of each expansion set) plus FREE Feral Dogs!

Project Z – The Zombie Miniatures Game

Zombie Horde Expansion Set

Male Survivors Expansion Set

Biker Gang Expansion Set

Female Survivors Expansion Set

Special Operations Team Expansion Set

Feral Dogs FREE!

NB PRE-ORDER WINDOW ENDS ON 11TH MARCH
http://us-store.warlordgames.com/products/the-complete-zombie

**CptJake**

judgedoug wrote:

I like!

It will look great painted like:

**jmurph**

Gotta say that the paint work on those is outstanding!

**rwwin**

ingtaer wrote:
Male and female survivors and 'zombie horde' boxes are US$24.
Boxed game is US$50 and the biker gang is US$40.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
No news on the modern soldiers yet.

Where are those prices from?

**MLaw**

Anyone have a good link to leftovers of the WGF kits? The only ones I've seen are already marked up.. like.. stupidly high..

Looking for Female Survivors.

$40 for the biker gang might not be as outrageous as we've assumed. Even if it's 1 sprue of the 2 bikes plus the leader or 2 sprues of 2 bikes.. Find me any 28mm bikers at that rate and I'll happily snap them up. All the ones I've seen are about $15 per biker (or more). Now... if that's just one sprue of 2 bikers.. yeah.. that's bonkers.

Speaking of the bikers. I just spotted everything I've been needing to make a female Catachan Commissar.

**judgedoug**

Man, it's amazing how the value of the WGF kits have skyrocketed. Throughout the 2015 convention season, WGF kits direct from WGF were buy 4 get 1 free, or $10/box on last day of the con. They gave away free zombie vixen sprues at Historicon 2014 to everyone, and free sprues every year at the Muster.

Now everyone's chomping at the bit to pay WGF MSRP after several years of being able to purchase them for anywhere from 20-50% off depending on whichever online retailer had them.

I guess you really do appreciate the things you don't have anymore.

**NewTruthNeomaxim**

MLaw wrote:
Anyone have a good link to leftovers of the WGF kits? The only ones I've seen are already marked up.. like.. stupidly high..

Looking for Female Survivors.

$40 for the biker gang might not be as outrageous as we've assumed. Even if it's 1 sprue of the 2 bikes plus the leader or 2 sprues of 2 bikes.. Find me any 28mm bikers at that rate and I'll happily snap them up. All the ones I've seen are about $15 per biker (or more). Now... if that's just one sprue of 2 bikers.. yeah.. that's bonkers.

Speaking of the bikers. I just spotted everything I've been needing to make a female Catachan Commissar.

The Warstore still has the female survivors (and only those) left in stock. I grabbed a box yesterday for like... $23 shipped.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: Oh and the biker sprue is two sprues. Each has one biker and I believe four torsos (and then riding or standing sets of legs).

The kit, supposedly, builds two bikes, and a total of six bikers in some combination of standing, or riding the bikes.

**carlos13th**

Firestorm games have the wgf stuff for about £15 a box but the shipping to the USA may remove any value that has for you

**MLaw**

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
MLaw wrote:
Anyone have a good link to leftovers of the WGF kits? The only ones I've seen are already marked up.. like.. stupidly high..

Looking for Female Survivors.

$40 for the biker gang might not be as outrageous as we've assumed. Even if it's 1 sprue of the 2 bikes plus the leader or 2 sprues of 2 bikes.. Find me any 28mm bikers at that rate and I'll happily snap them up. All the ones I've seen are about $15 per biker (or more). Now... if that's just one sprue of 2 bikers.. yeah.. that's bonkers.

Speaking of the bikers. I just spotted everything I've been needing to make a female Catachan Commissar.

The Warstore still has the female survivors (and only those) left in stock. I grabbed a box yesterday for like... $23 shipped.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: Oh and the biker sprue is two sprues. Each has one biker and I believe four torsos (and then riding or standing sets of legs).

The kit, supposedly, builds two bikes, and a total of six bikers in some combination of standing, or riding the bikes.

Chaosorc.com has them $17 before shipping. I picked up a box plus some Ex Illis for 50% off for $40 shipped (for both).

Also, I'm almost 100% positive there are 2 bikes per sprue. Those aren't halves from my understanding. Similar to the Black Reach Deff Koptas.

EDIT: I didn't see the bottom part about the standing bikers. Hm.. that's another consideration. As to the contents.. if you're reading an official description on the bike contents is there a link I missed? I looked on the Warlord site and didn't see it.

**NewTruthNeomaxim**

The biker sprues were spoiled recently. I found them via this thread, but can't recall precisely where.

Somewhere it was clarified that the box makes something like four standing gangers, two bikes with 1-2 riders, and the boss-biker which is a set model (w/girl carrying rocket-launcher), on a third bike... but supposedly this biker leader would be sold separately outside of the Warlord mega-bundle.

Even so... if the box is msrp $40, for two bikes + four solo models... it isn't a bad deal, especially with an online store discount added into it.