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HoundsofDemos wrote:
Assault 3, Pinning Shred. Still not perfect but makes them mobile and more likely to score wounds/hold a squad in place.

This makes HBs better against Monstrous Creatures than Autocannons are. This may be fine, but they're supposed to be light infantry killers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and again there's the issue that if HBs should get Pinning, then Burst Cannons, Splinter Cannons, Gatling Cannons etc etc etc should have it; after all, all of them have a higher RoF.

Actually, burst cannons are an interesting comparison. Same cost (10) and same strength, but only AP5 and 18", but with one more shot and assualt. What makes them a useful, viable option, when HBs aren't?

price lowered to 8pts per model like scouts do, with 5 points for hellfires again like scouts

Chaos Space Marine only

Heavy Hel-Bolter

36" s5 ap5 heavy 5 rending...

If you wanna see heavy bolters on the field, make windrider jetbikes have a 4+ save.

Did that for my house games (I am the eldar player, btw) and there are one or two every game I play against imperial players. Killing a bike every turn (or every other with cover/jink but they lose shooting capabilities) is well worth the 10 points.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Actually, burst cannons are an interesting comparison. Same cost (10) and same strength, but only AP5 and 18", but with one more shot and assualt. What makes them a useful, viable option, when HBs aren't?

One more shot and assault. The AP doesn't matter anymore. The range is nice, but not when mixed in with bolters.

Alcibiades wrote:

and again there's the issue that if HBs should get Pinning, then Burst Cannons, Splinter Cannons, Gatling Cannons etc etc etc should have it; after all, all of them have a higher RoF.

I think Pinning is fine. I mean, it's not just high RoF, you're being shot at with high caliber explosive shells.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1PrIY3Mgf4&t=1m50s

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Actually, burst cannons are an interesting comparison. Same cost (10) and same strength, but only AP5 and 18", but with one more shot and assualt. What makes them a useful, viable option, when HBs aren't?

The best platform for a Burst Cannon is a Crisis Suit which can spend 20 points to take 2 guns. Two Heavy Bolter marines have the same durability but worse points efficiency as a Crisis Suit with 2 Burst Cannons who also has a load of extra benefits like relentless, deep strike, jump shoot jump, markerlight support, supporting fire, etc. Stealths have never been considered a cost effective combat unit while you aren't taking vehicles for their burst cannons. Possible exception for the Piranha which when factoring the value of the drones and burst cannon comes to a 6 point AV 11 skimmer chassis so having a dirt cheap AV11 skimmer with a burst cannon isn't that bad of a proposition. Even then very few people are really interested in burst cannons when the best platform can just take plasmas, fusions, or cyclic ions for 5 points more per crisis suit weapon.

Naaris wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Due to the D6 system, there is no mathematical niche for them. Also, 4+ armor is relatively rare, and that kills them as well. Maybe if you could upgrade them to AP 3...

What version of 40k do you play Martel?

All Eldar- minus bikes and some aspect warriors
Dark Eldar are affected by AP4 - except maybe some MCs
Harlequins
All Nids except big beasts
All Orks except a few bigger elite models
All Tau infantry and fast attack infantry
All Astra militarum infantry
I'd also assume most inquisition
Necron Warriors and tombblades have a 4+ save, same with crypteks
Most Admech

Tau take Battlesuits and Mechs, which have 3+ or better
Nids/Orks/Imperial Guard don't care about your AP4.
Necron warriors have 4+ RP, Tomb Blades also have jink, DE have Jink, Eldar run bikes with Jink or Wraithknights.

I think the "If CWE Jetbikes were 4+" is an underrated answer.

Bharring wrote:
I think the "If CWE Jetbikes were 4+" is an underrated answer.

The misprint from Rogue Trader must be preserved at all costs!

Seriously though, IK exist, and with them there is a hard, hard break point on S5 vs S6. Actually there are a lot of AV 12 vehicle/walkers and that makes long range S6 SOOOOOOO much better than S5. Heavy bolters could be free and I still wouldn't use them because of the movement problem.

If the S5/S6 breakpoint were as critical as you suggest, the most common troop with access to S6 across the board - Tac Marines - would clean house.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The movement problem is where Salvo 2/3 becomes interesting - its a heavy weapon that still beats Boltguns on the move.

But the HB isn't supposed to answer an IK. That's what nearly every other Heavy option is supposed to be better against.

Bharring wrote:
If the S5/S6 breakpoint were as critical as you suggest, the most common troop with access to S6 across the board - Tac Marines - would clean house.

S6 ranged. Scatterlaser. Multilaser. Autoannon. Web Spinner. Not goddamn krak grenades. Which can't even hit the side of an IK unless you throw one. Remember assault doesn't exist really for marines in 7th. They're too busy being scooped up by scatterlasers, multilasers, autocannons and webspinners.

Multi lasers aren't on every IG Guardsmen.

Autocannons aren't on every CSM.

Web Spinners cannot be taken on any troops in any way.

SL Spam is bullcrap OP. But that isn't their "common troop" in fluff or intention.

My point is that S6 isn't the end-all-be-all. Other factors make the most ubiquitous source of S6 matter very little, whereas spammed S5 can be scary (Tau have some good S5).

A good fix for a lot of that would be to make the scatter laser and the deathspinner S5. I'm less sure about multilasers - make them S5 and they become strictly worse than heavy bolters (make them assault, and none of the platforms that carry one even notice).

Autocannons are mostly fine IMHO, though I think the high-yield missile pods on Broadsides could stand to be toned down or made more expensive.

That said, I'd still want to be able to fire a heavy bolter on the move, for them to be interesting. Assault or Salvo, either is fine IMO.

So the current proposal is:
HB: Salvo 2/3, still S5AP4
CWE Jetbikes: 4+
CWE Spinners and SL: S5

?

Seems like "Balance other things" is a critical part of the answer.

Oh, no doubt. There's a lot of other things that need tuning - and probably not just nerfing into uselessness. (Yeah, I know, funny me saying that, when I've proposed to nerf the Riptide into uselessness a few times, mostly to try to get a handle on what people really object to about it.)

Bharring wrote:
Multi lasers aren't on every IG Guardsmen.

Autocannons aren't on every CSM.

Web Spinners cannot be taken on any troops in any way.

SL Spam is bullcrap OP. But that isn't their "common troop" in fluff or intention.

My point is that S6 isn't the end-all-be-all. Other factors make the most ubiquitous source of S6 matter very little, whereas spammed S5 can be scary (Tau have some good S5).

No S5 really isn't. Even for BA. Who suck out loud. S5 kills my Rhinos at half the rate of S6, and wounds me 20% less. And can't hurt AV 12 at all. And the units with S5 aren't as mobile as scatterbikes or warp spiders. S6/7 is THE sweet spot in this game. Wounds almost everything at a high rate, can glance out almost everything from the side, and has high ROF frequently. If the click from S7 to S8 was remotely as good as 5 to 6, it wouldn't be quite as bad. S8/S9 just sucks now.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
So the current proposal is:
HB: Salvo 2/3, still S5AP4
CWE Jetbikes: 4+
CWE Spinners and SL: S5

?

Seems like "Balance other things" is a critical part of the answer.

Not quite, because the AP 4 is so incredibly niche. Cover, which is ubiquitous and FREE, is one of the biggest downfalls of the heavy bolter. Compare to a a weapon like webspinner or scatterlaser that just spams wounds and doesn't care about penetrating armor. Wound spam always works. Rely on AP gets worse the more terrain there is.

So:
Xenos APing Power Armor is broken and OP.
IoM APing Xenos is niche and pointless, because cover.

Sure, losing 3+ saves is worse than losing 4+ saves, but they both matter.

And Cover is rarely "free". It forces where you put your models - which can he her important. Force those 4+ models into the open to get to your juicy bits, and things change. Or flank their position, where possible. Where not possible, many platforms (jetbikes, Warp Spiders) need to take DT tests. Sometimes, a player will need to expose one unit or move them out of position to give another a 5+.

Cover really isn't free.

The AP4 isn't the main selling point of the HB. Its just one of its stats. Mostly, its supposed to be additional small arms shots, just a little stronger. Basically, for all the situations you list where S6 beats S5, the HB shouldn't be the answer. Want to pop an IK? Don't use a machine gun. Wound Marines like Eldar or IG? Not the HBs job. Pop a battletank (AV12)? Heck, it should (and does) struggle vs AV11/10. Tanks antitank.

Heavy Bolters are heavies which perform as Boltguns +1, better range. Better S. Better AP.

They wound anything not as tough as Marines on a 2+. They AP anything with less than Marine armor. They shoot faster than a Rapid Firing Boltgun. Take them to kill anything less than Marines.

For all the complaints about Marines, they still either outshoot or out chop almost every other Troop in the game, point for point. For many, they do both better. Its just that you never see these options, because there is so much that destroys them so easily. These "less than Marines" choices are what HB are for. IG. Ork 'Ard Boys. Dire Avengers. Kalabites. Even the Boltgun does a number on them. The HB is designed to hurt them.

" Want to pop an IK? Don't use a machine gun."

But S6 machine guns do it so well...

"Xenos APing Power Armor is broken and OP. "

Hardly. Eldar aren't scary because they pen power armor. They make it save 75 times a turn.

Tau don't just pen power armor; they slather it with ignore cover at will.

Necrons don't pen power armor; they just glance out ever vehicle ever and never die.

"
The AP4 isn't the main selling point of the HB."

Looking at its stats, that appears to be the intention. S5 ROF 3 sucks.

" they still either outshoot or out chop almost every other Troop in the game, point for point."

That's not really true. Only when other lists gimp themselves. Scatterbikes are THE Eldar troop now. Accept it.

IG have their counter meta thing going on, though. All your anti-meq weapons are now inefficient.

Because multi*Lasers* are machine guns?

Oh, you meant scatter*LASERS*? Because such an OP platform obviously has nothing to do with Scatter Bikes being OP.

Do Multi lasers really do well against IKs? SL bikes only do so because you get so much, for far too cheap.

At any rate, if you're looking for an SM Gatling cannon, that's the Assault Cannon, not the Heavy Bolter. They are, and should be, very different weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Scatter Bikes are one of the top troops right now. They outshoot SM by a mile. But:
1) SM are better at choppy than CWE Bikes, per point or per model, by a lot. The bikes are OP because their shooty is absolutely stupid, so of course Tacs aren't as shooty.
2) I said almost every troop choice in the game. Not only was the statement true about SL bikes anyways, but also, that is only one troop option. There are many troop options in the game. You may not care about anything but BA troops and SL Bikes, but many of the rest of us do.
3) Making a weapon that slaughters so many other troops choices that already can't compete won't help them compete. It won't do anything to fix the situation. It'll just reinforce the current situation. Are DE "gimping themselves" when they chose Kalabites? And when they chose Wyches?
4) Does every thread really need to devolve to "But Scatter Bikes!"? Is that really what we need to do to make HB viable?
5) Making HB-toting Tacs as good at shooting as SL Bikes even really a good idea?

Three shots that wound on 2s for most targets at 36"? For a negligible price, doesn't seem so bad.

It's because you can't move.

Being able to outchop in 7th ed is incredibly not useful. I live it every time I play this game. Even other marine lists just grav my dudes before they can chop.

Necron warriors are better than tacs because of gauss.
Fire warriors are inferior in a vacuum but superior on the table because shooting counts for so much and they get synergistic buffs.
Scat bikes are scat bikes.
Guardsmen are inferior in a head to head but are counter meta in a game where 3+ is either denied or scrubbed through by mass wounds. More wounds is better in a game where quality of wound means nothing lives until you get to godly mcs.

The 3+ isn't denied by massed wounds. It cuts those wounds into thirds. Those with a 5+ lose twice as much, and 4+ lose half again. Works out well for IG dudes, as they cost less than half a Marine, but much less well for Kalabites, Wyches, Kroot, Fire Warriors, Guardians, Dire Avengers, Rangers, Harlequins and Scouts. In other words, unless the selling points of the models is eating a lot of firepower (Guards, Orks, Gaunts, and Necron Warriors), Marines lose *less* point-for-point from S6 AP6 firepower. Even SL Bikes lose more points per shot (but have insane shooting).

The quality of the wound does mean something. If you want to play as a general who believes otherwise, stop taking units that pay for survival.

I'm not arguing that Tacs are the best troop in the game. I'm saying that the things the HB is good against are in a worse spot than Tacs right now.

That's possibly true. But the hull point mechanic still puts s6 so far ahead of s5 its crazy.

Yeah, because anti-Infantry weapons aren't as good at popping vehicles as heavy lasers or cannons or shaped charges

Shouldn't heavy lasers and cannons and shaped charges be better for popping vehicles?

When you take a weapon designed to kill sub-MEQ units, shouldn't it not be great at popping vehicles?

I get that S5 is worse vs IKs and battle tanks than S6. I don't get why that is a bad thing.

Because s6 gives too much utility for the cost. And difference in capability is too stark.

Sounds counter intuitive, but give heavy bolters ap3. Now it can do something in return for being heavy and not generating enough wounds.

So you think the HB should be S6 so that it can do everything?

Why should a Heavy Bolter be a good choice for killing battletanks and IKs?

What makes S6 more appropriate than Fleshbane + Haywire?

Eldar have multiple guns that do evertything while the imperium have a bunch of guns that don't do enough.

So, you want the HB to be the IoM SL?

Bharring wrote:
So, you want the HB to be the IoM SL?

No, not really. There's already the multilaser. My main thesis is that the heavy bolter is a useless weapon in 7th ed because of the limitations of gw's system. It has no mathematical niche against 7th ed lists. It's not worth not moving to fire one of these things. Eldar never have to make these choices because eldar.