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Make Tyranids not suck, while retaining their 4+ statline. Then you'll see HB with a niche.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Make Tyranids not suck, while retaining their 4+ statline. Then you'll see HB with a niche.

A single army is not enough. Heavy bolters suck vs the whole field currently.

So... Resolved that scatter lasers should not be S6, and probably deathspinners and most other S6 spamguns shouldn't be either. Got it. I'll even concede that HYMPs need to be nerfed too. (Missile pods and CIBs, we'll say the jury is out - apparently Crisis Suits don't attract all that much rage).

If the heavy bolter were R36 S5 AP3 Salvo 2/3, Pinning, would they have any use at all? I agree that as they are - Heavy, especially - they're lackluster at best, and useless at worst. I think at that point they'd be pretty good against MEQs and below while having some utility against MCs. (Remember that, as much as you revile the Riptide, Tyrannofex, Ghostkeel and NDK for their defenses, most MCs are T6/Sv3+, not Sv2+).

Even with a 3+, heavy bolters will clear VERY few wounds against MCs. Even scatterlasers start to look less overpowered against T6, because the 3+ has to save against so many fewer wounds.

HYMPs at least aren't supermobile and T4 2+ W2 is not that hard to neutralize in 7th ed. Crisis suits don't get rage because they die like meqs. Even faster than meqs against S8. I mean crisis suits are weak to krak missiles, a garbage heavy weapon if there ever was one.

If AV 13/14 were more common, then the S6 spam would have a real downside. But they aren't, and most AV 13 has very vulnerable sides. If IK had AV 13 sides, for example, they'd be a real counter to scatbikes. But they don't, so they are just trivial victims for them.

S5 ap3 salvo 2/3 pinning would make it perhaps more effective vs infantry than its points. Remember that it still wounds Marines on 3s, and now it APs them.

Bharring wrote:
S5 ap3 salvo 2/3 pinning would make it perhaps more effective vs infantry than its points. Remember that it still wounds Marines on 3s, and now it APs them.

Which would be something, even though my "meq" opponents usually have lists of bikes, invis centurions, or are huddled in 12 free razorbacks that the heavy bolter would still be ass against. See, meqs suck now, and my knowledeable opponents minimize their ACTUAL usage of meqs. But it would be something. I STILL wouldn't use it though. How dumb has this game gotten?

Oh no. Bikes. It only kills them on 4s!

On a more serious note, how many models in the top 10 lists from LVO were T3/4 3+/4+?

Hint: tons.

Bharring wrote:
Oh no. Bikes. It only kills them on 4s!

On a more serious note, how many models in the top 10 lists from LVO were T3/4 3+/4+?

Hint: tons.

But then they get their jinks and laugh at you.

I need to look at these magic lists using the crappy models in 7th ed. Infantry has very poor life expectancy in this game now.

Well, T6 surely has its advantages - point-for-point, splinter cannons are far better at bringing T6+ MCs down than scatter lasers are. (Actually, those are the exact cases that start seriously favoring the shuriken cannon due to Bladestorm, and I play against 'nids a lot, so I tend to think of that first...)

That said, with AP3, a squad of BS4 guys with 4 HBs (12 shots) gets 2.66 wounds on a Carnifex, versus 1.9 with AP4. I ran the numbers - S6 helps a lot more here. S6 AP3, that's a dead 'fex. S6 AP4, that's only 2.66 wounds. Hm.

Versus Marines, that's 5.33 expected wounds at AP3, versus 3.1 at AP4. So, at AP3, I think they'd be at least a little more useful.

The problem with most of these suggestions is the existence of the autocannon.

The autocannon is the light vehicle and monstrous creature killer. If you implement things like giving HBs S6 (or even 5), or Shred, or AP3 in the case of MCs, you make the autocannon obsolete.

This is also the case against MCs if you increase RoF beyond a certain point.

The HB is supposed to be an anti-light infantry weapon. These proposals turn it instead into a superior version of the autocannon.

What pops into my mind is giving it Shred and an increase in RoF to 4, but reduce S to 4. Yes you heard that right. Mathematically S4 with Shred will give it better killing power against infantry (S4 is better than S5 against anything below T7 I think), but it will not step over into a light vehicle killer.

Alcibiades wrote:
The problem with most of these suggestions is the existence of the autocannon.

The autocannon is the light vehicle and monstrous creature killer. If you implement things like giving HBs S6 (or even 5), or Shred, or AP3 in the case of MCs, you make the autocannon obsolete.

This is also the case against MCs if you increase RoF beyond a certain point.

The HB is supposed to be an anti-light infantry weapon. These proposals turn it instead into a superior version of the autocannon.

What pops into my mind is giving it Shred and an increase in RoF to 4, but reduce S to 4. Yes you heard that right. Mathematically S4 with Shred will give it better killing power against infantry (S4 is better than S5 against anything below T7 I think), but it will not step over into a light vehicle killer.

Clever. I like that a lot.

Like I said before, the primary issue is that there isn't a problematic unit in the game that it would fill the role of eliminating. Heavy bolters and autocannons are terrifying to eldar jetbikes according to the fluff, they don't even need to try and Dodge them in game.

No evasive maneuvers needed against something that could tear you apart because they will probably bounce off of your armor. You know, that exact same front plate the Harlequins have on their jetbikes of similar design that can't possibly stop those bullets...

The fluff has almost no bearing on the tabletop game. By the model of the game, space marines are not a match for Eldar. The scatterlaser would dominate every engagement.

To be fair, the scattlaser dominates nothing in regards to land raiders.

Space marines die too easily, according to the bolter porn books anyway. The eldar in the codex written fluff have always taken evasive maneuvers when fired upon by heavy bolters and autocannons. For them to warrant doing that their armor would have to not be proof against it.


Again, eldar jetbikes have only granted a 4+ save in my games since the DAY the 6th ed codex came out and heavy bolters (and grenade launchers) have been a staple for imperial armies around my tables for years now because of it. Also, it makes heavy flamers and manticor scary as all get out as well.

I would want to take heavy bolters if foot Howling Banshees and Scion squads were super popular and the most spammed units in the game.

It has to be those two, because other 4+ units like fire warriors can stay in cover and you'd just use weight of fire.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
, the primary issue is that there isn't a problematic unit in the game that it would fill the role of eliminating.

See?

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
To be fair, the scattlaser dominates nothing in regards to land raiders.

Space marines die too easily, according to the bolter porn books anyway. The eldar in the codex written fluff have always taken evasive maneuvers when fired upon by heavy bolters and autocannons. For them to warrant doing that their armor would have to not be proof against it.


Again, eldar jetbikes have only granted a 4+ save in my games since the DAY the 6th ed codex came out and heavy bolters (and grenade launchers) have been a staple for imperial armies around my tables for years now because of it. Also, it makes heavy flamers and manticor scary as all get out as well.

Too bad land raiders are unusable garbage.

Point I was making is scatterlasers aren't the answer to everything, and wouldn't be a problem if they weren't too cheap on a unit that has too much survivability.

4+ save on the jetbikes removes how scary the scatbikes are, +5 points on the scatterlasers (or, in my houserules, they become 24") makes them on par with most heavy weapons in the game. If a single 10 point heavy bolter forces 60+ points of scatbikes to jink, then the heavy bolter becomes worth taking.

But the bikes are 3+, not 4+ in the actual game. Heavy bolter would still be garbage, because it isn't even good vs Orks.

Heavy bolters are Str5, which is the most useless strength value in the game. Its not high enough to wound MEQ on a 2+, and its not high enough to ID T3 (Eldar/Tau/Guard) characters. Its not high enough to scratch AV12, and against AV 11 its waste of 3 shots trying for a HP, when a simple Lascannon or Missile Launcher could do the job much better. If a weapon is strength 3 or below, at least you know it'll be cheap or have a rule like poisoned. Str 4 comes standard on most things. Str 6 is that sweet spot where you do 2+ wounding on MEQ/Necrons/Orks, and ID T3. Str 7 is similarly useless as the only bonus it really grants is vs T6 and AVs, but at that stage you might as well go all the way and get Str8 for the MEQ ID, 2+ vs T6 and ability to harm AV14.

Except this is the proposed rules section of the forum where you are supposed to... Propose rules changes.

So, my proposal is to simply change the windrider jetbikes to grant a 4+ save as opposed to a 3+ and change the windrider jetbikes dataslate accordingly. This would thereby give a viable target that is very common in the meta for the heavy bolter, has fluff validation, and would add a weakness to a unit most people agree is an issue.

So, that would be a win, win, win situation!

Edit: so except for these very useful scenarios, these strength ratings stink.
How about str7 versus toughness 5? Are there not a lot of biker space marines or orks in your area?

Make e'm work like HMG's, you can use those to do indirect fire and it increases the range of the weapon dramatically.

So give e'm a small STR 5 AP 4 barrage blast at 24-60'' to represent that (do the same with Hvt Stubbers, too, but with their own Str/AP) this kills mortars, but hey, its another topic. Make it apply to infantry hvy bolters only.

Easiest way to not make them suck, remove Heavy weapon Tag.

That way they can move and fire 3 times. Keep them limited as a heavy weapon but add suspension web or something to allow them full RoF on move.

That way no str increase to challenge other wpns but they now become a mobile support wpn.

Makes the most since and doenst increase their effectiveness terribly, and would maybe actually get people to play them.

Im actually like the idea of making them salvo, but something more like:
S5 AP 4 Salvo 3/5. Pinning
Im not really ok with them auto penning power arrmor, but they throw up enough shots to maybe matter... and suddenly they are actually useful against armies with lots of units. To me the heavy bolter has always been a weapon thatis designed to fill that roll against orcs and nids, and other squishy zerg lists. If someone else said the same I apologize.

Sorry, at AP 4, it's still too narrow of a niche.

Martel732 wrote:
Sorry, at AP 4, it's still too narrow of a niche.

ok so what reasoning is there to make it AP3? At what point do we stop making armor saves totally pointless in the game? That has to stop at some point. Heavy bolters are specifically used against targets like orcs and nids not against heavily armored targets.

 Dyslexican32 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Sorry, at AP 4, it's still too narrow of a niche.

ok so what reasoning is there to make it AP3? At what point do we stop making armor saves totally pointless in the game? That has to stop at some point. Heavy bolters are specifically used against targets like orcs and nids not against heavily armored targets.

3+ armor is already so poor that I'd rather have a gun that does something to dangerous Xenos than worry about it killing my marines that already don't live. Back when scatterbikes dropped, I said make autocannons and heavy bolters AP3 and be done with it. The guard becomes more dangerous as well. 3+ armor is no longer heavy armor. It just lasts a bit longer against wound spam than 4+ armor. This is a game with D-scythes and ion acclerators in it. Who cares about AP 3 anymore?

Str 5 AP4 Heavy 3 blast....giggles

Can't remember if it's been suggested, but give Heavy Bolters specialist ammo? Being able to choose between AP3, Ignores Cover, and Poisoned (2+) would certainly make the Heavy Bolter a much better generalist weapon.

3+ armor is already so poor that I'd rather have a gun that does something to dangerous Xenos than worry about it killing my marines that already don't live. Back when scatterbikes dropped, I said make autocannons and heavy bolters AP3 and be done with it. The guard becomes more dangerous as well. 3+ armor is no longer heavy armor. It just lasts a bit longer against wound spam than 4+ armor. This is a game with D-scythes and ion acclerators in it. Who cares about AP 3 anymore?

So the answer is " there are other strong things so lets make everything strong" that is the reasoning... I don't see how that even makes them able to compete against things like scatter bikes? And as things are now nothing can compete with D so lets not even compare those things.. Its like comparing a club and a nuclear weapon! And yes it will survive a bit longer against wound spam then 4+ and that does and should mean something. if ALL the weapons in the game just deny armor then what is the point, it makes shooting EVEN stronger then it already is!




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Can't remember if it's been suggested, but give Heavy Bolters specialist ammo? Being able to choose between AP3, Ignores Cover, and Poisoned (2+) would certainly make the Heavy Bolter a much better generalist weapon.

Im coll withthat, but they need to be paid for upgrades, not necessarily super expensive but you need to pay points for those for sure. Either way I think they need to get them away from the way heavy weapons currently work.

It gives more strong shooting to more lists, especially IG. Why limit which lists have strong shooting among those that should all have strong shooting?