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Also, mauls ID Guard/Eldar/Skitarii characters, for the most part, and that's pretty useful.

They let non-BA marines beat AV 12 to death 2-3 times faster than krak greandes.

While Mauls and HBs share the same primary job (cashing out xenos) mauls actually succeed in being decent all-around weapons. Against things outside their ideal target, they still get the extra S to spam wounds, and concussive as a little bit of gravy. S6 is pretty good against anything you need to be in CC with. Barring AV13 walkers and some of the nastier GMCs, you should be able to get some hits in. And it’s not unwieldy.

I think the two main things holding them back is the fact that people like to specialize, so avoid the jack-of-all-trades maul, and the scarcity of bits. I’d field more if I owned more.

You can make them from thunder hammers by cutting off the hammer part.

Martel732 wrote:
You can make them from thunder hammers by cutting off the hammer part.

I’ve done that, and it works OK. Ends up being more “shock baton” and not as much “Your head is an over-ripe melon” then I’d like. Putting together a few more is still on my to-do list.

Heavy Bolters make sense on certain platforms. For instance the Land Raider Prometheus is a good example of a perfect place to put HB.

two twinlinked HB per sponson. A total of 12 shots with -1 cover. As with all Land Raiders it IS still overcosted but its function is good.

I was talking about the Power Sword.

 Nevelon wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You can make them from thunder hammers by cutting off the hammer part.

I’ve done that, and it works OK. Ends up being more “shock baton” and not as much “Your head is an over-ripe melon” then I’d like. Putting together a few more is still on my to-do list.

You could always just use the more ornate designed Thunder Hammers as Thunder Hammers, and the plain ones could be Mauls.

I'm not picky. As long as my opponent knows what's what.

I used thunderhammer heads, cut them off and then cut the two ends of the hammer head itself off of and then glued them to the end of the handles.

Worked out pretty good on my thunderwolves. (Heck yeah str7 ap4 rending at initiative!)

I've always seen Power Mauls as "Power [Blunt]. So staves, clubs, battons, maces, etc.

I want to do a Dire Avenger Exarch with 2xTonfas(/billy clubs). I doubt anyone would have issue with me considering that a Power Maul (technically, 1xPower Weapon + pistol, but as long as I include a pistol, it has the same effective rules).

Bharring wrote:
I've always seen Power Mauls as "Power [Blunt]. So staves, clubs, battons, maces, etc.

I want to do a Dire Avenger Exarch with 2xTonfas(/billy clubs). I doubt anyone would have issue with me considering that a Power Maul (technically, 1xPower Weapon + pistol, but as long as I include a pistol, it has the same effective rules).

The DA kit has a pistol mounted on the back of the wrist arm, on a pointing hand. With a little work, the pointing hand could be made to look like it’s holding a beatstick. Sounds like a cool idea.

On topic: HBs do ugly thing to Dire Avengers.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
I used thunderhammer heads, cut them off and then cut the two ends of the hammer head itself off of and then glued them to the end of the handles.

Worked out pretty good on my thunderwolves. (Heck yeah str7 ap4 rending at initiative!)

I nabbed a bunch of the dark angel biker power mauls. They look like baseball bats, pretty awesome weapons. Every bit of theory crafting I did just put wolf claws miles ahead of power mauls though, even against ap4 or 5 targets. Shred is just so awesome. Even a 2 claw/1 naked vs 3 maul was in favor of the claws.
My plan was to have a unit of 4 or 5 with mauls and a lord with the wulfen stone, so on the charge they are all S8. The mauls do pull ahead against AV, so you could drop a dreadnought.

I throw my thunderwolves at hard targets, so I am always wanting to drop initiative on whatever I am hitting. I rarely charge something I will kill in one round, so mitigating their retaliatory capabilities is a big part of my strategy. I normally have one powerfist in the group as well, simply because I may need some str10 at some point.

How bout leave HB stats the same but make it a rapid fire weapon? 3 shots/6 shots at 1/2 max distance.

I would like to see some special rule on all bolter weapons, but a rule in line with what a bolter is expected to do.

Being bolter ammo little missiles that explode on impact, I'd like something like this:

Every units (except vehicles) hit by a bolter weapon with S equal or higher than unit's T, would be slowered down fot that and the successive turn ( representing the stopping power of bolter type ammo)

Am I the only person that likes his heavy bolters?

It's useless against all the big stompy crap that's dominating the game right now, but none of the proposed changes in here would change that anyway. Against hordes, it's a mighty fine weapon because it's crazy cheap.

I've had a lot of success with my razorback's heavy bolters when I decide to forego lascannons, as well as the two guys in my devastator squad that have them. Compliments the two guys with Gravcannons quite well when I'm playing Orks or Tyranids. Obviously I'd do more Gravcannons if I had them but might as well use the other weapons that come in the box, right?

 SRSFACE wrote:
Am I the only person that likes his heavy bolters?

It's useless against all the big stompy crap that's dominating the game right now, but none of the proposed changes in here would change that anyway. Against hordes, it's a mighty fine weapon because it's crazy cheap.

I've had a lot of success with my razorback's heavy bolters when I decide to forego lascannons, as well as the two guys in my devastator squad that have them. Compliments the two guys with Gravcannons quite well when I'm playing Orks or Tyranids. Obviously I'd do more Gravcannons if I had them but might as well use the other weapons that come in the box, right?

Don’t get me wrong, I like HBs. They just are in a bad place right now. While inexpensive, they aren’t quite cheap enough. Generally the 10 points they set you back could be spent better, elsewhere. Especially when replacing a bolter on a tac marine. Because the points you spend upgrading could almost get you another battle brother tapping out his bolter alongside his friend.

There is also the opportunity cost of not taking a different heavy. We only have a few spots in out lists to put decent guns. Will you fill one of those slots with something that fills a role we don’t really need to worry about?

I don’t think they are the pure garbage others make them out to be, but they are a little sub-par. And when talking competitively, that’s a deal breaker.

 Nevelon wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:
Am I the only person that likes his heavy bolters?

It's useless against all the big stompy crap that's dominating the game right now, but none of the proposed changes in here would change that anyway. Against hordes, it's a mighty fine weapon because it's crazy cheap.

I've had a lot of success with my razorback's heavy bolters when I decide to forego lascannons, as well as the two guys in my devastator squad that have them. Compliments the two guys with Gravcannons quite well when I'm playing Orks or Tyranids. Obviously I'd do more Gravcannons if I had them but might as well use the other weapons that come in the box, right?

Don’t get me wrong, I like HBs. They just are in a bad place right now. While inexpensive, they aren’t quite cheap enough. Generally the 10 points they set you back could be spent better, elsewhere. Especially when replacing a bolter on a tac marine. Because the points you spend upgrading could almost get you another battle brother tapping out his bolter alongside his friend.

There is also the opportunity cost of not taking a different heavy. We only have a few spots in out lists to put decent guns. Will you fill one of those slots with something that fills a role we don’t really need to worry about?

I don’t think they are the pure garbage others make them out to be, but they are a little sub-par. And when talking competitively, that’s a deal breaker.

I agree with this. I think the HB is fine as is, but it is just drained out because of what the current state of all the competing best options are. For example.. HBs would be great against Nids.. if warriors and other 4+ MCs were fielded more often, but currently why pay for those when you could just roll a Flyrant..

I have had success with my Sentinal of Terra running HB/missle Centurians (and i have mentioned this to criticism in other threads), but they work, and they are cheap for the bubble of death they bring to infantry and light transports in their 42" effective killzone.

Putting that all aside, I think adding pinning would be a good idea.. but we need to fix pinning first... pinning right now is worthless.. What gets pinned? Maybe orks? Maybe Tau? (which literally doesn't matter w/ markerlights, assault jumps etc).. Most things that you want to pin down have high enough leadership, are fearless, or are immune to pinning..

Possibly... one solution is for pinning weapons instead of "on hit take a pinning check", to be "a unit hit by a weapon with pinning, takes a modified leadership check (L - #of wounds taken)" ... just a thought i had, but it would make pinning more viable.

** edit ** it was a mistype to be 2d6.. i meant just the units Leadership value

** edit 2 ** I meant centurians not normal marine devastators =/

 SRSFACE wrote:
Am I the only person that likes his heavy bolters?

It's useless against all the big stompy crap that's dominating the game right now, but none of the proposed changes in here would change that anyway. Against hordes, it's a mighty fine weapon because it's crazy cheap.

I've had a lot of success with my razorback's heavy bolters when I decide to forego lascannons, as well as the two guys in my devastator squad that have them. Compliments the two guys with Gravcannons quite well when I'm playing Orks or Tyranids. Obviously I'd do more Gravcannons if I had them but might as well use the other weapons that come in the box, right?

It's not even that good against hordes once you factor in cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:
Am I the only person that likes his heavy bolters?

It's useless against all the big stompy crap that's dominating the game right now, but none of the proposed changes in here would change that anyway. Against hordes, it's a mighty fine weapon because it's crazy cheap.

I've had a lot of success with my razorback's heavy bolters when I decide to forego lascannons, as well as the two guys in my devastator squad that have them. Compliments the two guys with Gravcannons quite well when I'm playing Orks or Tyranids. Obviously I'd do more Gravcannons if I had them but might as well use the other weapons that come in the box, right?

Don’t get me wrong, I like HBs. They just are in a bad place right now. While inexpensive, they aren’t quite cheap enough. Generally the 10 points they set you back could be spent better, elsewhere. Especially when replacing a bolter on a tac marine. Because the points you spend upgrading could almost get you another battle brother tapping out his bolter alongside his friend.

There is also the opportunity cost of not taking a different heavy. We only have a few spots in out lists to put decent guns. Will you fill one of those slots with something that fills a role we don’t really need to worry about?

I don’t think they are the pure garbage others make them out to be, but they are a little sub-par. And when talking competitively, that’s a deal breaker.

I agree with this. I think the HB is fine as is, but it is just drained out because of what the current state of all the competing best options are. For example.. HBs would be great against Nids.. if warriors and other 4+ MCs were fielded more often, but currently why pay for those when you could just roll a Flyrant..

I have had success with my Sentinal of Terra running HB/missle devastators (and i have mentioned this to criticism in other threads), but they work, and they are cheap for the bubble of death they bring to infantry and light transports in their 42" effective killzone.

Putting that all aside, I think adding pinning would be a good idea.. but we need to fix pinning first... pinning right now is worthless.. What gets pinned? Maybe orks? Maybe Tau? (which literally doesn't matter w/ markerlights, assault jumps etc).. Most things that you want to pin down have high enough leadership, are fearless, or are immune to pinning..

Possibly... one solution is for pinning weapons instead of "on hit take a pinning check", to be "a unit hit by a weapon with pinning, takes a modified leadership check 2d6 - #of wounds taken" ... just a thought i had, but it would make pinning more viable.

They're so fine I avoid them like the plague.

Martel732 wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:
Am I the only person that likes his heavy bolters?

It's useless against all the big stompy crap that's dominating the game right now, but none of the proposed changes in here would change that anyway. Against hordes, it's a mighty fine weapon because it's crazy cheap.

I've had a lot of success with my razorback's heavy bolters when I decide to forego lascannons, as well as the two guys in my devastator squad that have them. Compliments the two guys with Gravcannons quite well when I'm playing Orks or Tyranids. Obviously I'd do more Gravcannons if I had them but might as well use the other weapons that come in the box, right?

It's not even that good against hordes once you factor in cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:
Am I the only person that likes his heavy bolters?

It's useless against all the big stompy crap that's dominating the game right now, but none of the proposed changes in here would change that anyway. Against hordes, it's a mighty fine weapon because it's crazy cheap.

I've had a lot of success with my razorback's heavy bolters when I decide to forego lascannons, as well as the two guys in my devastator squad that have them. Compliments the two guys with Gravcannons quite well when I'm playing Orks or Tyranids. Obviously I'd do more Gravcannons if I had them but might as well use the other weapons that come in the box, right?

Don’t get me wrong, I like HBs. They just are in a bad place right now. While inexpensive, they aren’t quite cheap enough. Generally the 10 points they set you back could be spent better, elsewhere. Especially when replacing a bolter on a tac marine. Because the points you spend upgrading could almost get you another battle brother tapping out his bolter alongside his friend.

There is also the opportunity cost of not taking a different heavy. We only have a few spots in out lists to put decent guns. Will you fill one of those slots with something that fills a role we don’t really need to worry about?

I don’t think they are the pure garbage others make them out to be, but they are a little sub-par. And when talking competitively, that’s a deal breaker.

I agree with this. I think the HB is fine as is, but it is just drained out because of what the current state of all the competing best options are. For example.. HBs would be great against Nids.. if warriors and other 4+ MCs were fielded more often, but currently why pay for those when you could just roll a Flyrant..

I have had success with my Sentinal of Terra running HB/missle devastators (and i have mentioned this to criticism in other threads), but they work, and they are cheap for the bubble of death they bring to infantry and light transports in their 42" effective killzone.

Putting that all aside, I think adding pinning would be a good idea.. but we need to fix pinning first... pinning right now is worthless.. What gets pinned? Maybe orks? Maybe Tau? (which literally doesn't matter w/ markerlights, assault jumps etc).. Most things that you want to pin down have high enough leadership, are fearless, or are immune to pinning..

Possibly... one solution is for pinning weapons instead of "on hit take a pinning check", to be "a unit hit by a weapon with pinning, takes a modified leadership check 2d6 - #of wounds taken" ... just a thought i had, but it would make pinning more viable.

They're so fine I avoid them like the plague.

Which weapon choice is better for that then?

Autocannons. Oh wait, marines don't get those. Both the ML and heavy bolter are complete dumpster fires that Xenos lists like the one YOU apparently use as your main list can completely ignore and laugh at as my marines die in droves like little bitches to scatterlasers and ion accelerators. Before I get stepped on by a Stormsurge or Riptide.

Martel732 wrote:
Autocannons. Oh wait, marines don't get those. Both the ML and heavy bolter are complete dumpster fires that Xenos lists like the one YOU apparently use as your main list can completely ignore and laugh at as my marines die in droves like little bitches to scatterlasers and ion accelerators. Before I get stepped on by a Stormsurge or Riptide.

Neither of which I use, as they are both a lore change I greatly disagree with, and are not fun to use. I get that you are upset, but there is no need to be like that. If you want to make a convincing argument, attacking people is not the way to go.

I'm just trying to illustrate that Tau weapon options are so far ahead of the Imperium, that I feel like I shouldn't even show up to fight. Tau grunts get weapons as strong as heavy bolters. That's so incredibly frustrating.

Worrying about where a specific weapon stands in the meta of competitive Warhammer is stupid. It's just dumb. I am not sorry of you're hurt by my opinion.

Competitive Warhammer in general is really, really stupid. If you're playing Marines to begin with, you're not really a competitive player to begin with, for starters. Changing Heavy Bolters wouldn't make Marines more competitive, as they are not Eldar or Necron.

Unless they made it so Heavy Bolters were rending and ignored cover. And I'm not in favor of that because WH40k needs less totally stupidly broken stuff, not more of it.

It's 3 shots at 36" inches as stength 5. That's not bad. Saying "it's worse once you factor cover in" is factually untrue because it's still 3 shots at S5. It's as long distance rate-of-fire as you can get for marines. Oh NOES, people get to make saving throws against it! THE WORST THING IMAGINABLE, people being able to position their army against you in a way that actually stops your weapons from ripping them apart.

I don't bother with high AP stuff that much anymore, outside of Plasma and that's mostly because as Dark Angels, I have access to twin-linked plasma in droves which is about as high-volume high powered shooting as you can get with any Marines these days. It's just that Tau ignore cover so my entire army dies on turn 1 so it's kind of pointless.

Honestly, if they toned back all the "I ignore all your rules" crap Eldar and Tau do, the game in general would be in a pretty good spot.

The game is incredibly unbalanced, I will agree. But for TAC squads and other things that don't have access to autocannons, the HB is not a bad anti-horde weapon. It could certainly be better, the salvo 4/3 thing that's been suggested sound good. Or maybe just giving it 4 shots and give TACs a special "bracing" ability that allows them to fire as if they had not moved. It's just a pity that horde isn't a particularly strong army type, as big stompy robots have taken over the game, much to my dismay.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The game is incredibly unbalanced, I will agree. But for TAC squads and other things that don't have access to autocannons, the HB is not a bad anti-horde weapon. It could certainly be better, the salvo 4/3 thing that's been suggested sound good. Or maybe just giving it 4 shots and give TACs a special "bracing" ability that allows them to fire as if they had not moved. It's just a pity that horde isn't a particularly strong army type, as big stompy robots have taken over the game, much to my dismay.

A heavy bolter kills 1.33 Orks who are in the open. It kills 0.89 Orks in 5+ cover. That's your anti-horde weapon? It can't glance out AV 12. It's math against most MCs is awful. It literally has no role in this game. I'd be happier if they just admitted it and got rid it.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm just trying to illustrate that Tau weapon options are so far ahead of the Imperium, that I feel like I shouldn't even show up to fight. Tau grunts get weapons as strong as heavy bolters. That's so incredibly frustrating.

Thats also pretty in line to the actual fluff though, which I particularly enjoy to some extent. Quite literally Tau have picked up marine plasma weapons and basically said.. hmm s7 is nice.. but we dont like gets hot.. so ours will be s6 intead and lose the penalty.

As for effective shooting against tau... marines have grav.. the best anti MC weapon in the entire game. Not to mention every marine comes stock with a krak grenade.

If you are trying to gunline against tau.. you are going to lose, that is not how you beat them by any means.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm just trying to illustrate that Tau weapon options are so far ahead of the Imperium, that I feel like I shouldn't even show up to fight. Tau grunts get weapons as strong as heavy bolters. That's so incredibly frustrating.

Thats also pretty in line to the actual fluff though, which I particularly enjoy to some extent. Quite literally Tau have picked up marine plasma weapons and basically said.. hmm s7 is nice.. but we dont like gets hot.. so ours will be s6 intead and lose the penalty.

As for effective shooting against tau... marines have grav.. the best anti MC weapon in the entire game. Not to mention every marine comes stock with a krak grenade.

If you are trying to gunline against tau.. you are going to lose, that is not how you beat them by any means.

Grav guns are spectacularly average. Which is what BA have. I don't see anywhere in the fluff that BA lose every battle, but yet that's basically what happens. Feth the fluff.

Martel732 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The game is incredibly unbalanced, I will agree. But for TAC squads and other things that don't have access to autocannons, the HB is not a bad anti-horde weapon. It could certainly be better, the salvo 4/3 thing that's been suggested sound good. Or maybe just giving it 4 shots and give TACs a special "bracing" ability that allows them to fire as if they had not moved. It's just a pity that horde isn't a particularly strong army type, as big stompy robots have taken over the game, much to my dismay.

A heavy bolter kills 1.33 Orks who are in the open. It kills 0.89 Orks in 5+ cover. That's your anti-horde weapon? It can't glance out AV 12. It's math against most MCs is awful. It literally has no role in this game. I'd be happier if they just admitted it and got rid it.

Ok. 1.33 orks at 36" where you are not getting charged, compared to in the open boltguns in rapid fire doing 0.66 wounds and getting charged...