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My player in the rpg didn't think much of melee anyways. This suits me just fine.

I am going to pair some Vanguards rocking Heavy Thunder Hammers with my Frag Cannon and Shotgun squads. Probably will give the Sergeants a Xenophase Blade and a Stormshield (possibly Stormshields on a couple of the other dudes) and park them up front to try to tank wounds. The dudes up front will take the hits, then when the time is right the Vanguards will come busting in with the Heavy Thunder Hammers. Not entirely sure, but I might pair a Biomancy or Telepathy Librarian with those squads for good measure.

Frag cannons of death spam for me!

 Gamgee wrote:
i think testing will see if they are at a similar power level to the Tau or just under it. For which I am thankful. I wish they would tone down the power of all the super powered codices. I might actually be able to convince the scrubs around me to play me again. Despite not even using cheesy lists in the first place.

Its far weaker than the Tau codex, Riptides and Stormsurges will just rip any DW up with long range shooting and intercept. The codex itself lacks long range shooting, zero beat stick characters or any impressive assault units that the SM codex don't have. Every unit if kitted out will cost a lot, so you can't run a efficient MSU army with it either.

Although that flyer is pretty good, probably is one of the best flyers the imperials got with re-rollable jink is ridiculous. Maybe load a squad of Termicide on it armed with those melta PFs and just go to town.

 Gamgee wrote:
Frag cannons of death spam for me!

I am not going to go bits hunting and paying an arm and a leg for Frag Cannons. I have one, Death Masque comes with one, and I will get two more Veteran Squad boxes for the remaining two. That should give me a ton of stuff to work with for this army.

Really seems like a solid alpha strike army - rewarding proper target selection, assigning the right squad to the right enemy unit, and using the proper weapons in order to mitigate the return hits.

So, they're powerful, but must be used tactically. I like this - you can minimize their weaknesses by playing intelligently.

Gotto say, the commander in Terminator armour being unable to take a Storm Shield thing really bothers me.

It reminds me so much of the current Chaos Codex where, as written, Chaos Terminators can either upgrade their ranged weapons or their melee weapons, but not both - a rule written that way when it wasn't intended that way yet still went to print because no one bothered to check.

Hm that is a good point - Dwatch seem excellently equipped to handle the majority of xenos with 3+ or worse saves -- but what weapons or tactics would bear the most fruit if faces with multiple riptides, storm surges, or a wraith knight?

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Hm that is a good point - Dwatch seem excellently equipped to handle the majority of xenos with 3+ or worse saves -- but what weapons or tactics would bear the most fruit if faces with multiple riptides, storm surges, or a wraith knight?

Heavy Thunder Hammers in a Dominatus Killteam for S10 AP2 Instant Death on a 6 with re-rolls to wound vs Elites Choices, which the Riptide is.

Storm surge and WK would be harder as the DW has no Anti-LoW Choice, perhaps Aquila Killteam so they can at least re-roll their 1s.

Sigh...looks like I might be making a squad that has gravguns or plasmaguns in one hand and shotguns in the other. God this game has gotten ridiculous. And yet, I actually could see the Deathwatch doing something ridiculous like this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Hm that is a good point - Dwatch seem excellently equipped to handle the majority of xenos with 3+ or worse saves -- but what weapons or tactics would bear the most fruit if faces with multiple riptides, storm surges, or a wraith knight?

Heavy Thunder Hammers in a Dominatus Killteam for S10 AP2 Instant Death on a 6 with re-rolls to wound vs Elites Choices, which the Riptide is.

Storm surge and WK would be harder as the DW has no Anti-LoW Choice, perhaps Aquila Killteam so they can at least re-roll their 1s.

Strategium Command Team with a Chaplain and a Xenophase Blade wielding Sergeant could probably put a wound or two on a GC, but it isn't something I would count on. Dropping several Frag Cannons in a WK's face might be the best option. One will probably have to get an ally in to deal with the big stuff, which is quite disappointing. I guess the Xenos big, scary things are too much for the Deathwatch.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Sigh...looks like I might be making a squad that has gravguns or plasmaguns in one hand and shotguns in the other. God this game has gotten ridiculous. And yet, I actually could see the Deathwatch doing something ridiculous like this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Hm that is a good point - Dwatch seem excellently equipped to handle the majority of xenos with 3+ or worse saves -- but what weapons or tactics would bear the most fruit if faces with multiple riptides, storm surges, or a wraith knight?

Heavy Thunder Hammers in a Dominatus Killteam for S10 AP2 Instant Death on a 6 with re-rolls to wound vs Elites Choices, which the Riptide is.

Storm surge and WK would be harder as the DW has no Anti-LoW Choice, perhaps Aquila Killteam so they can at least re-roll their 1s.

Strategium Command Team with a Chaplain and a Xenophase Blade wielding Sergeant could probably put a wound or two on a GC, but it isn't something I would count on. Dropping several Frag Cannons in a WK's face might be the best option. One will probably have to get an ally in to deal with the big stuff, which is quite disappointing. I guess the Xenos big, scary things are too much for the Deathwatch.

It's actually rather fluffy- Death Watch is more a special forces group specializing in Xenos. When Xenos pull out a wraithknight or stormsurge, you don't call for the Astartes Team 6, but for the Titan legions.

From the looks of it, this is how Deathwatch should be- small model count, high tech specialists. Like Assassins and Inquisition, they are not really meant to be a full sized army, but a tool for allied forces. Grey Knights are similar, but have expanded into a larger force since the daemonic often means that no one else can face them, so GK need to cover the bases.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Gotto say, the commander in Terminator armour being unable to take a Storm Shield thing really bothers me.

It reminds me so much of the current Chaos Codex where, as written, Chaos Terminators can either upgrade their ranged weapons or their melee weapons, but not both - a rule written that way when it wasn't intended that way yet still went to print because no one bothered to check.

It's particularly silly when you consider any Joe Deathwatchmarine from the basic squad can take one(which is good, IMO, it just highlights the issue with the HQ). Giving every Watch Master exactly the same gear is also a bit wonko IMO.

It really does seem like the 'dex is a bit half-arsed - I can't fathom why they didn't just give them all Bolt Pistols and then make the upgrades melee for melee and ranged for ranged.

Honestly I'm glad I was only planning to put together one Kill Team and am basing the loadouts on fluff, because trying to build a proper army out of this slightly shambolic setup does not appeal.

 Gamgee wrote:
i think testing will see if they are at a similar power level to the Tau or just under it. For which I am thankful. I wish they would tone down the power of all the super powered codices. I might actually be able to convince the scrubs around me to play me again. Despite not even using cheesy lists in the first place.

That was my impression as well. I think vanillans will wipe the floor with these guys.

Regarding how to represent Bolter + Shotgun wielders, clearly the best thing to do is to get those sweet double-barreled Bolters that FW has for the Alpha Legion Headhunters.

Stormsurges (usually taken in two) will be tough since they can out melee you so you will need to rely on out shooting them. This at at a hyper competitive level.

I think against Gargs and SHV the DW will need to play the objective game or try find a cheap way to tie up those units for a turn or two. The DW are also going to have a lot of problems with high end flyer spam like the Tau Barracuda which could become a thing depending on your meta. It will be even worse if you have the flyers supplement where their spamming is even more insanely good.

Edit
No doubt as time goes by they will be fleshed out more. They are already better than most armies.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Regarding how to represent Bolter + Shotgun wielders, clearly the best thing to do is to get those sweet double-barreled Bolters that FW has for the Alpha Legion Headhunters.

Make Combi-Bolter Shotguns! As in take the bolter and graft the shotgun on top of it. One could also take the Thunderwolf Cavalry "bolter in a sling bit" and attach it to the backpack. The older Tactical Squad kit used to have bolters that still had the handle on them, I think I might have one or two of those that I could attach to the backpacks. Good news is that Drenn Redblade has the exact backpack needed for this, I will just swap his arms out for shotgun arms.

That is a good plan to use the Head Hunter bolters!

I would consider doing that if I didnt already have 3 full squads of DW marines with different FW bolters (phobos is my fave look) as they are the unifying theme for the squad since they are all so varied.

I am just going to give my list an easy way out with "Every bolter marine has a shotgun hidden somewhere" universal rule.

Where these guys are really going to shine is zone mortalis. They've got the perfect toolkit and it's concentrated into potent troop units.

They are probably going to be super as allies since they are such a potent unit. When they have some IK backup or something big they will be quite scary.

I don't like most of the IoM stuff so I'm just running them solo if I ever get a game.

...or i guess I could strap a whole bunch of these to the underside of the the powerpacks

 Gamgee wrote:
They are probably going to be super as allies since they are such a potent unit. When they have some IK backup or something big they will be quite scary.

I don't like most of the IoM stuff so I'm just running them solo if I ever get a game.

My guys will be running around with a Knight Errant for dealing with big stuff. Yes, it takes a chunk out of my DW fun times, but I want to be able to at least attempt to take a WK or Stormsurge out.

Tau heresy! The Stormsurge is glorious. Sorry reflex. All this talk of DW and Imperium is affecting my head. If I don't get that out I'll lose it.

I like the way IK look but the inner hipster in me doesn't like playing the same army as another especially in the small group who used to play with me. One player had an IG/IK army. So that's a nope.

I'll just wait until they get something of their own to handle it. If it ever gets to the point they can beat the most casual of lists I might look into an IK. I'll likely grab a FW one if I did just to distinguish mine from his. Considering they were having difficulty taking down firewarriors, kroot, and vespid I don't think I'll have any issues.

One of the players is thinking of selling his CSM or shelving them and starting Grey Knights.

Knight Errants get rekt by Stormsurges and Wraithknights.

I'm thinking of starting a Deathwatch force to go with Inquisition and Assassins, and build them up to their own thing. Maybe I can find someone selling the Harlequins for super cheap as well - kind of want to start a Xenos army, and this one isn't considered op cheese.

Hopefully GW releases DW faq soon. That bolter+shotgun sounds a lot like what GW might not have intended(whoops) and I can see possibility of them errating that. Better that comes sooner than later so nobody has to re-model their conversions! Or clear that it's intended(at which point why not just have that as standard loadout...) once and for all.

Personally I like it, gives the option to go things like stalker/shotgun or similar combinations building in some diversity of options. There is no reason to stick with a CCW so might as well get an assault weapon. Also it is better than a bolt pistol in almost any circumstance

Yeah but c'mon, there's no way they intended DW squads to walk around with a bolter in one hand and a shotgun in the other.

The codex isn't even officially out. It would be funny to see a faq that fast. Honestly if they are allowed to have both it's not really all that strong in the grand scheme of the over powered factions. I kind of like the idea they are loaded down with guns, but it's up to GW.

I've got a rough 2000 point list planned out, but to start I think I'll end up grabbing a Watch Captain, Veterans, and Corvus Blackstar. Soon as my Taunar is done which is going to start when I'm done my Tidewall. Only two pieces of that left. Man I need more time.

 Leth wrote:
Personally I like it, gives the option to go things like stalker/shotgun or similar combinations building in some diversity of options. There is no reason to stick with a CCW so might as well get an assault weapon. Also it is better than a bolt pistol in almost any circumstance

Yes gamewise it makes sense to replace it. But it feels very weird(is there another unit with two basic guns per model?) so feels like it's possible it was not intended(GW is not known for quality of rules...Just look at how there's no reason whatsoever to NOT take free lightning claw upgrade! Better or equal in every scenario to power sword, same price) so it's not beyond realm of possibility.

So it would be better for GW to clarify it one way or another soon. Imagine how pissed people are going to be if they convert(possibly with not-that-cheap FW parts) their models and 5 months later GW says "oops sorry that was correct. No more that from now on".

Which is why I hope it gets clarified in a FAQ sooner rather than later.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gamgee wrote:
The codex isn't even officially out. It would be funny to see a faq that fast. Honestly if they are allowed to have both it's not really all that strong in the grand scheme of the over powered factions. I kind of like the idea they are loaded down with guns, but it's up to GW.

I've got a rough 2000 point list planned out, but to start I think I'll end up grabbing a Watch Captain, Veterans, and Corvus Blackstar. Soon as my Taunar is done which is going to start when I'm done my Tidewall. Only two pieces of that left. Man I need more time.

They put out FAQ for generals handbook in AOS before it was on sale so it's not impossible. And updates to product on day of release is pretty typical these days.

Now I couldn't really care myself since if I get deathwatch army I need to create rules from scratch since GW never gave me DW rules I could use but since people are already talking how to model it...Just would be nice to have it cleared up as soon as possible. Either way is fine, just clear it soon.

The best space marines use their mouths to fire a shotgun.

Plenty of units have been able to do this before, we just never heard about them because they were seldom beneficial. A Space Marine Tactical Squad Sergeant can trade his bolt pistol for a second boltgun, for instance. It serves no benefit, so no one ever did it, but he CAN do it. An example of one that can do it and it IS beneficial is a Scout Sergeant can exchange his bolt pistol for a boltgun and his boltgun for a sniper rifle. Ridiculous, but possible.