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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
The Rune Golems don't seem badly priced at 35 bucks when you get two dreadnought-sized models in the box. Same with the big carrion-worm things. Plus the online discount means they will probably be 30 or less, even with the horrible Asmodee discount rules.

And yeah. Spear shaft rebending is basically something every single Forge World buyer has to do with anything that's a melee weapon, so big deal.

...I believe anyone who finds that a fair price is probably already already so invested in Warmahordes he or she won't have space for Runewars.

On the plus side, if this game takes off, Bones 4 will probably offer us better sculpts of similar designs for half the price at most.

Wait, so you're saying 15 bucks each for a pair of Dreadnought-sized models is too much? I mean, yeah the infantry is too damn expensive (especially four heroes at that price), but damn.

Yeah, $15 for a big fantasy golem thang is too much, if it's of approx Bones quality. This guy is currently in resin and metal but I don't expect the Bones version to be more than $6 or so.

http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/golem/latest/03696

Considering even overpriced infantry packs are about 50%-60% of current GW boxes I'm fine with it. If we're going to compare everything to Bones even Mantic is incredibly expensive. Besides, there's the game and support to consider. For most of those interested in runewars the game is a huge draw.

Besides, after the incredibly overwrought designs of GW these past years the simple, clean nature of these minis is actually refreshing.

I hate to see how much more expensive it is overseas but it's a comparably affordable game system for me.

dosiere wrote:
Considering even overpriced infantry packs are about 50%-60% of current GW boxes I'm fine with it.

By "current", are you really comparing them with the likes of GS Cult Hybrids, which are £5 each RRP but are probably the best multipart plastics in the world?

Better to compare like with like:

10 GW skeletons, RRP £15.50, i.e. £1.55 each
8 RW skeletons, RRP £25, i.e. £3.12 each -- over twice the price!

Discounts are somewhat better for GW too (20% rather than 10%), so I'm being generous by not applying those...

And the GW ones, despite being old sculpts, are at least as good as the RW ones. There is no way that the RW ones are even approaching the same league as recent GW multipart plastics.

I like the idea of the game and I don't hate the sculpts -- but I don't see this taking off anywhere outside of the USA, and I think FFG will struggle to recruit players even there, even with the marginally cheaper pricing. They're pricing for the prepaint market but hoping to get existing unpainted miniatures wargaming fans interested, and sadly I find this unlikely. "Sadly" because I was looking forward to this being successful enough for 3rd-party components to be made... would have been nice to use my existing undead minis with it!

GW is a UK company, and they manufacture in the UK, so prices will be cheaper there.

I've been GW players use certain value arguments like the one I'm about to use: How much of those 10 GW skeletons are you going to need in a competitive WHFB army? Because I don't recall seeing many armies consisting of just 10 skeletons. You might need 4 of those WHFB boxes to fill the same kind of fighting strength you get in 2 boxes of RW.

Likewise, in the RW box you get extra cards and extra bits. I know how cheap those are to manufacture though.

Anyway, I'm planning to get the starter box. I've been wanting another fantasy game and undead army for that fantasy game for a while now. So, I'll give it a shot considering I like boardgame-like mechanics and components in miniature games.

Yeah. I had planned to get the starter box when the logic was "$100, ah, that'll be £80, or £64 after discounts."

£80 after discounts is still worthy of consideration, but on balance, I'm going to wait and see about those 3rd-party components. Part of my interest in this is that I love undead. I already own a fair few. I want to be able to use RW minis in other games and vice versa. Otherwise there's not much point in them being 28mm scale...

Comparisons to Bones are inherently flawed based on the incredibly inferior material Bones stuff is made out of. It makes PVC or even dare I say Finecast look really good in contrast. It damn well Better be cheaper than everything else.

Are people still comparing costs of Rune Wars with other figures? Although they look expensive, I kinda figured a lot of the costs were for extra cards, dials and tokens. Much like X-Wing, where half the contents aren't the figure(s).

I initially thought it looked a bit of fun, but then realised just how many cards etc I ended up with for X-Wing and decided one game like that will do for me. I'll stick with my old GW figures and the KoW rules for good fun quick games.

 AegisGrimm wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
The Rune Golems don't seem badly priced at 35 bucks when you get two dreadnought-sized models in the box. Same with the big carrion-worm things. Plus the online discount means they will probably be 30 or less, even with the horrible Asmodee discount rules.

And yeah. Spear shaft rebending is basically something every single Forge World buyer has to do with anything that's a melee weapon, so big deal.

...I believe anyone who finds that a fair price is probably already already so invested in Warmahordes he or she won't have space for Runewars.

On the plus side, if this game takes off, Bones 4 will probably offer us better sculpts of similar designs for half the price at most.

Wait, so you're saying 15 bucks each for a pair of Dreadnought-sized models is too much? I mean, yeah the infantry is too damn expensive (especially four heroes at that price), but damn.

One, I was mostly thinking about the infantry, yeah. Two, Bones minis of that size are eight to ten bucks, depending on the sculpt and number of pieces, although their prices seem to be going up recently...

But then, I remember paying $10 for Bones Cthulhu and a similar price for Kaladrax, so my perspective may be off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AduroT wrote:
Comparisons to Bones are inherently flawed based on the incredibly inferior material Bones stuff is made out of. It makes PVC or even dare I say Finecast look really good in contrast. It damn well Better be cheaper than everything else.

For large models, Bones is a great medium. For smaller minis, we could always compare like to like and see what comes in a CMON game box for the same price...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
Are people still comparing costs of Rune Wars with other figures? Although they look expensive, I kinda figured a lot of the costs were for extra cards, dials and tokens. Much like X-Wing, where half the contents aren't the figure(s).

I initially thought it looked a bit of fun, but then realised just how many cards etc I ended up with for X-Wing and decided one game like that will do for me. I'll stick with my old GW figures and the KoW rules for good fun quick games.

I think you just answered your own unstated question about why people don't include the cardboard box ballast in their value calculations...

I'm happy to consider the fantastic game and accessory and rules content that each box comes with... and still find them significantly poorer value than most of what Games Workshop is selling. And when your brand new product looks worse and is significantly more expensive than the market leader, it almost doesn't matter how good a game it might be, sadly.

I do complain about GW pricing too, though, so maybe I'm not the target market!

So how many 8-man units of skeletons do you need for a game? There's the difference. If the rules are free/cheap (i.e. not $70 for the main book and $50 for each of the 12 required expansions in order to be somewhat competitive) it'll be cheaper than GW.

 agnosto wrote:
So how many 8-man units of skeletons do you need for a game? There's the difference. If the rules are free/cheap (i.e. not $70 for the main book and $50 for each of the 12 required expansions in order to be somewhat competitive) it'll be cheaper than GW.

Generals handbook and recent battletomes are both $25, so that would be a $50 total investment at most, and that's assuming your chosen faction even has a battletome. Otherwise it's just $25.

As for the "you don't need as many models" aspect, that might be true (I honestly don't know in this case) but usually games that have more expensive minis than GW (Infinity, Malifaux) also have as nice or (depending on your tastes) even nicer minis as well. Paying more for worse models isn't likely to draw many customers I don't think, even if you need less of them.

 Mymearan wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
So how many 8-man units of skeletons do you need for a game? There's the difference. If the rules are free/cheap (i.e. not $70 for the main book and $50 for each of the 12 required expansions in order to be somewhat competitive) it'll be cheaper than GW.

Generals handbook and recent battletomes are both $25, so that would be a $50 total investment at most, and that's assuming your chosen faction even has a battletome. Otherwise it's just $25.

As for the "you don't need as many models" aspect, that might be true (I honestly don't know in this case) but usually games that have more expensive minis than GW (Infinity, Malifaux) also have as nice or (depending on your tastes) even nicer minis as well. Paying more for worse models isn't likely to draw many customers I don't think, even if you need less of them.

Sure but $0 is better than $25 or $50 for AoS or $200ish in books for 40k, that's more models I'll buy. It still amazes me that GW hasn't figured that part out but ah well.

I get the model comments for you folk that actually care about what your game markers look like. Board game plastic is fine by me and smaller games are great because I'm more a gamer than a hobbyist. I know most people on here didn't want pre-paints but that would have sold me on the game immediately.

 AduroT wrote:
Comparisons to Bones are inherently flawed based on the incredibly inferior material Bones stuff is made out of. It makes PVC or even dare I say Finecast look really good in contrast. It damn well Better be cheaper than everything else.

Well, Bones is PVC, so... not sure where that leaves your opinion.

It is a decent comparison because these will be some form of PVC. And given the absolute gak show my Imperial Assault purchases have been, it's a definite concern.

PVC (Bones) is a great material for medium to large sized figures. And a good one for man sized and smaller if used properly. See the figures from CMoN from Blood Rage on. Excellent figures that suffer from few (none, really) of the problems of earlier PVC figures.

The down side to me for Runewars is the mediocre to poor designs of the sculpts. Feels very Budget World of Warcraft to me, which I believe I mentioned earlier in this thread.

~Eric

I thought Bones were sold as a replacement for metal for the RPG gamers. That is, Bones let them sell for $10 a hill giant that would cost $30 in metal. For an army, a $30 larger figure might be acceptable, but, for a GM, this means he's spending $90+ for a single RPG encounter. Creatures that would be "rank and file" for a wargame (eg. skeletons) are sold in 3-per-pack blisters, which is typical for RPGs, not a box of sprues, which is more common for "rank and file" miniatures. The "broccoli bases" Reaper uses makes the figures easier to place down on a mat, but, I think, would make them difficult to push around, compared to army miniatures which have sturdier bases.

Runewars may be good for new players who don't play Star Wars and haven't sunk hundreds of dollars and *hundreds of hours painting* into their "lifestyle" miniatures wargame. But I've spent over three months painting a Mantic Orcs Army, and I'm not interested in doing this over again for Runewars.

EDIT: Take a look at what CMON is doing. : https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/720705.page#9252776

 Ian Sturrock wrote:

dosiere wrote:
Considering even overpriced infantry packs are about 50%-60% of current GW boxes I'm fine with it.

By "current", are you really comparing them with the likes of GS Cult Hybrids, which are £5 each RRP but are probably the best multipart plastics in the world?

Better to compare like with like:

10 GW skeletons, RRP £15.50, i.e. £1.55 each
8 RW skeletons, RRP £25, i.e. £3.12 each -- over twice the price!

Discounts are somewhat better for GW too (20% rather than 10%), so I'm being generous by not applying those...

And the GW ones, despite being old sculpts, are at least as good as the RW ones. There is no way that the RW ones are even approaching the same league as recent GW multipart plastics.

I like the idea of the game and I don't hate the sculpts -- but I don't see this taking off anywhere outside of the USA, and I think FFG will struggle to recruit players even there, even with the marginally cheaper pricing. They're pricing for the prepaint market but hoping to get existing unpainted miniatures wargaming fans interested, and sadly I find this unlikely. "Sadly" because I was looking forward to this being successful enough for 3rd-party components to be made... would have been nice to use my existing undead minis with it!

Cult hybrids are nice, but that's an opinion on best in the world...

The whole price thing is pointless. Its all how much you want to play with. Like most of these games, its a better value to buy 2 starters if you want bigger games. To that point, FFG said the starter box is about half of what a normal game is.

Discounts are moving to 15% max, so close to being the same as FFG.

Id also disagree on the sculpts. FFG look better, GW is that old cartoony messed up proportions. Stuff youd find in a B horror movie. ID say Mantic ones are even better then GWs

I do agree though as I don't even seeing this take off in the US. I was very excited for it after playing it at Gencon, but if I want a rank and file game for fantasy, I play 6mm Kings of war. Dirt cheap, easy to paint up and easy to do mass battles.

They should just stick with Battlelore.

 agnosto wrote:
So how many 8-man units of skeletons do you need for a game? There's the difference. If the rules are free/cheap (i.e. not $70 for the main book and $50 for each of the 12 required expansions in order to be somewhat competitive) it'll be cheaper than GW.

Thanks Agnosto, these points needed to be made. Even Age of Sigmar, which I love, is costly to play in the very competitive circuit, with special prayers and abilities in the expensive hardcover faction books. We play it scenario-casual for fun anyway, but Rune Wars is a tournament-ready package that seems reasonably costed to me.

 Shrapnelsmile wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
So how many 8-man units of skeletons do you need for a game? There's the difference. If the rules are free/cheap (i.e. not $70 for the main book and $50 for each of the 12 required expansions in order to be somewhat competitive) it'll be cheaper than GW.

Thanks Agnosto, these points needed to be made. Even Age of Sigmar, which I love, is costly to play in the very competitive circuit, with special prayers and abilities in the expensive hardcover faction books. We play it scenario-casual for fun anyway, but Rune Wars is a tournament-ready package that seems reasonably costed to me.

The tomes are far cheaper now for AoS then just half a year ago. Picked up the Tzeentch one for $35 and that was hard back. The softback is going for $25 on the GW page. And that is not even needed, recent major tournament winner in the UK did it with a Grand Order army that didn't use any formations or sub-faction special rules. Just, skinks, Waywatchers, and Kurnoth Hunters.

Plus if you are complaining about costs in the competitive circuit, then RW will likely be just as much based off of the current churn of X-Wing. X-Wing defenders point out that you if aren't playing competitive, it's a cheap game. AoS is the same.

There is a lot of interest in my area for this game, but I'm not sure it's going to be sustainable. The KoW crowd is looking to jump to this if it's good. Most who play it say they only play KoW because it's a RnF game. A lot of them are also playing X-wing because it scratches their tactical itch. So they're hoping for a RnF game with X-wing tactics. Problem is they are talking about just mounting their existing figures to new bases and using them. They have little interest in buying whole new armies. I expect to see them buy one box and lots of photocopying of cards.

 silent25 wrote:
. The KoW crowd is looking to jump to this if it's good. Most who play it say they only play KoW because it's a RnF game. A lot of them are also playing X-wing because it scratches their tactical itch. So they're hoping for a RnF game with X-wing tactics. Problem is they are talking about just mounting their existing figures to new bases and using them. They have little interest in buying whole new armies. I expect to see them buy one box and lots of photocopying of cards.

That sounds extremely annoying. They want a game with higher strategy and tactics level (not hard to do with KoW) but are not planning on supporting the game with purchases.
And the armies may look like garbage.

Does your store plan on any organized play? That will nip the lego, bones and MLP proxies in the rump.

 Shrapnelsmile wrote:

 silent25 wrote:
. The KoW crowd is looking to jump to this if it's good. Most who play it say they only play KoW because it's a RnF game. A lot of them are also playing X-wing because it scratches their tactical itch. So they're hoping for a RnF game with X-wing tactics. Problem is they are talking about just mounting their existing figures to new bases and using them. They have little interest in buying whole new armies. I expect to see them buy one box and lots of photocopying of cards.

That sounds extremely annoying. They want a game with higher strategy and tactics level (not hard to do with KoW) but are not planning on supporting the game with purchases.
And the armies may look like garbage.

Does your store plan on any organized play? That will nip the lego, bones and MLP proxies in the rump.

The group is pretty mercenary and goes where they will have space and buys where the biggest discount is. The local stores don't go out of their way to support them because of it. While they frown on legos and MLP, a couple of them have 100% bones armies. So that stalk is full grown already

 silent25 wrote:
And that is not even needed, recent major tournament winner in the UK did it with a Grand Order army that didn't use any formations or sub-faction special rules. Just, skinks, Waywatchers, and Kurnoth Hunters.

As a retired WHFB vet, I just threw up in my mouth ...

Mutter wrote:

 silent25 wrote:
And that is not even needed, recent major tournament winner in the UK did it with a Grand Order army that didn't use any formations or sub-faction special rules. Just, skinks, Waywatchers, and Kurnoth Hunters.

As a retired WHFB vet, I just threw up in my mouth ...

As a non-retired AoS player I just rolled my eyes at this.

Mutter wrote:

 silent25 wrote:
And that is not even needed, recent major tournament winner in the UK did it with a Grand Order army that didn't use any formations or sub-faction special rules. Just, skinks, Waywatchers, and Kurnoth Hunters.

As a retired WHFB vet, I just threw up in my mouth ...

As a not retired WHFB player, I just rolled my eyes at this

Let's drop the AoS trolling/hate circle. This is about RW.

I'll admit I am thinking about using GW undead on the RW bases because of appearance of the RW undead. I hope it's feasible to buy the cards and units without having to buy three to four upgrade boxes per unit. Was planning on laser cutting the bases and dial if need be.

But I agree looking at it that way, it's not sustainable in the long run doing this. The rules intrigue me, but the models and purchasing options don't.

 Las wrote:


Hmm... this aesthetic really reminds me of something.

Oh...

I actually think this is why I like the humans, funny as it may seem.
They are less "bling", and will be a breeze to paint well.

 Shrapnelsmile wrote:

 silent25 wrote:
. The KoW crowd is looking to jump to this if it's good. Most who play it say they only play KoW because it's a RnF game. A lot of them are also playing X-wing because it scratches their tactical itch. So they're hoping for a RnF game with X-wing tactics. Problem is they are talking about just mounting their existing figures to new bases and using them. They have little interest in buying whole new armies. I expect to see them buy one box and lots of photocopying of cards.

That sounds extremely annoying. They want a game with higher strategy and tactics level (not hard to do with KoW) but are not planning on supporting the game with purchases.
And the armies may look like garbage.

Does your store plan on any organized play? That will nip the lego, bones and MLP proxies in the rump.

If they just want the rules, that's fair enough. Buying the rules and using whatever miniatures you want was the norm before GW created the current Fantasy/Sci-fi ecosystem that we have here, and is still the norm for Historicals. I'm interested in potentially trying Runewars, and I don't dislike the models as many here seem to, but I have a sizable undead army for KoW that's already built and painted (photo from June last year, so there's more there now) and I'd fully intend to continue using it, so if I had to photocopy some cards to do it, c'est la vie. There are a few bones models in there, but sorry. No Lego or MLP. It's mostly Citadel, with Mantic, Reaper, Brigade, RPE, because, you know, I'm such a cheap bastard.

 Azazelx wrote:
If they just want the rules, that's fair enough. Buying the rules and using whatever miniatures you want was the norm before GW created the current Fantasy/Sci-fi ecosystem that we have here, and is still the norm for Historicals. I'm interested in potentially trying Runewars, and I don't dislike the models as many here seem to, but I have a sizable undead army for KoW that's already built and painted (photo from June last year, so there's more there now) and I'd fully intend to continue using it, so if I had to photocopy some cards to do it, c'est la vie. There are a few bones models in there, but sorry. No Lego or MLP. It's mostly Citadel, with Mantic, Reaper, Brigade, RPE, because, you know, I'm such a cheap bastard.

Some miniature wargames, such as Kings of War, have free downloads, because free downloads lead to actual sales, of both dead tree rulebooks, and plastic armies. Some boardgame companies, particularly those in a KS (ObPlug: AEG's Thunderstone Quest), provide free PnP. Free electronic content -- even books -- has been shown to lead to actual sales. So, sure, grognards with tight wallets and no time to paint more armies may be using printed cards, but that will lead to more sales by new players, or those who can afford and want to buy retail-quality components. I don't like the "cards with miniatures" retail model, either, so haven't bought boardgames which use them (unless they were at a deep discount!).

I got a starter box at AdeptiCon with my 'premium' badge.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Yeah, $15 for a big fantasy golem thang is too much, if it's of approx Bones quality. This guy is currently in resin and metal but I don't expect the Bones version to be more than $6 or so.

http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/golem/latest/03696

Using Bones prices for other figures probably isn't very fair as Bryan, one of the head Reaper people, stated on their forums recently that the KSers paid for all the molds so they don't include the cost of tooling in their prices. If they did, he said, then Bones would be comparable in price with other plastic figures.

 Vertrucio wrote:
GW is a UK company, and they manufacture in the UK, so prices will be cheaper there.

I've been GW players use certain value arguments like the one I'm about to use: How much of those 10 GW skeletons are you going to need in a competitive WHFB army? Because I don't recall seeing many armies consisting of just 10 skeletons. You might need 4 of those WHFB boxes to fill the same kind of fighting strength you get in 2 boxes of RW.

Likewise, in the RW box you get extra cards and extra bits. I know how cheap those are to manufacture though.

Anyway, I'm planning to get the starter box. I've been wanting another fantasy game and undead army for that fantasy game for a while now. So, I'll give it a shot considering I like boardgame-like mechanics and components in miniature games.

Sounds like the best idea is to get together as a group, buy one of the starter set, everybody photocopies the cards and spends the saved money on nice models that are cheaper.