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And fire hawks

Okay folks, I got another run vs Orks last night so here's the quick and dirty rundown:

1500 points.

My army - Chaplain, Ven. Dread in pod with AC/HF, Aquila - Libby, 7x Stalker bolters, Aquila - CML Terminator, 4x Missiles, 2 shotguns, bolter, Strategium - Captain (JP/XPB/AA/Auspex/Beacon Angelis), Aquila - 2x Frag Cannons, 4x Combi meltas, 2x LC/SS Vanguard, Blackshield - TH/SS, Terminator - HF/Meltafist.

His army (unbound)- 3 Blitza Bommers, 5x Gun Trukks with Big Lobbas, 11x Tankbustas in a trukk, 11x Burnas in a trukk, 4x Biker boys, big mek with KFF on a bike, Weirdboy, Warboss

Mission was big guns never tire with 5 objectives.

I had the first turn, and while he had good cover thanks to his deployment i was able to wreck the trukk holding the tankbustas and a warboss for first blood. The dread dropped next to his big lobba trukks and did 1 HP of damage.

His first turn was savage. The tankbustas wrecked my drop pod, and his big lobbas killed all but 2 of my heavy weapons team with missile launchers (scoring 17 total hits and 14 total wounds altogether!)

My turn 2 saw the arrival of my strategium command team, and i made a mistake. Instead of running to spread them out, i instead fired at the nearby unit of bikers killing all but 1 and the big mek. I was under the impression he had brought BURNA bommers and not blitza bommers, so i didn't worry about being in pie plate formation. My 2 remaining missile launchers were able to explode the trukk with burnas inside, and my stalker bolters erased them from existence with hellfire rounds.

His turn 2 saw the arrival of his flyer wing of blitza bommers. After all 3 S7 AP2 large blasts resolved, I only had a terminator, a marine with a bolter, my captain, and my blackshield remaining in that unit. Rokkit fire from the tankbustas saw that my terminator died as well. Bikers took 2 HP from my ven dread by shooting his rear armor, and the big shootas on the bommers took out my last 2 missile launcher marines.

Things looked pretty bad for the deathwatch overall. However, fighting against the odds is what deathwatch are all about. My venerable dread had been working on the big lobba trukks since his arrival, and turn 3 saw him stomp a mudhole in the remaining ones so that nothing but wreckage remained. The captain and his retinue pursued the 2 bikers and destroyed them in melee, and the stalker bolter team (my favorite deathwatch unit so far) killed almost all of the tankbustas.

The rest of the game ended with the deathwatch overcoming great odds for victory - my captain met his warboss in a challenge, but it was the blackshield swinging his thunderhammer from the sidelines that destroyed the foul ork. His flyers circled the table, harassing units with their shootas but the majority of their work had been done upon their arrival. Game went on to turn 7, with Deathwatch scoring 9-0 overall.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Okay folks, I got another run vs Orks last night so here's the quick and dirty rundown:

1500 points.

My army - Chaplain, Ven. Dread in pod with AC/HF, Aquila - Libby, 7x Stalker bolters, Aquila - CML Terminator, 4x Missiles, 2 shotguns, bolter, Strategium - Captain (JP/XPB/AA/Auspex/Beacon Angelis), Aquila - 2x Frag Cannons, 4x Combi meltas, 2x LC/SS Vanguard, Blackshield - TH/SS, Terminator - HF/Meltafist.

His army (unbound)- 3 Blitza Bommers, 5x Gun Trukks with Big Lobbas, 11x Tankbustas in a trukk, 11x Burnas in a trukk, 4x Biker boys, big mek with KFF on a bike, Weirdboy, Warboss

Mission was big guns never tire with 5 objectives.

I had the first turn, and while he had good cover thanks to his deployment i was able to wreck the trukk holding the tankbustas and a warboss for first blood. The dread dropped next to his big lobba trukks and did 1 HP of damage.

His first turn was savage. The tankbustas wrecked my drop pod, and his big lobbas killed all but 2 of my heavy weapons team with missile launchers (scoring 17 total hits and 14 total wounds altogether!)

My turn 2 saw the arrival of my strategium command team, and i made a mistake. Instead of running to spread them out, i instead fired at the nearby unit of bikers killing all but 1 and the big mek. I was under the impression he had brought BURNA bommers and not blitza bommers, so i didn't worry about being in pie plate formation. My 2 remaining missile launchers were able to explode the trukk with burnas inside, and my stalker bolters erased them from existence with hellfire rounds.

His turn 2 saw the arrival of his flyer wing of blitza bommers. After all 3 S7 AP2 large blasts resolved, I only had a terminator, a marine with a bolter, my captain, and my blackshield remaining in that unit. Rokkit fire from the tankbustas saw that my terminator died as well. Bikers took 2 HP from my ven dread by shooting his rear armor, and the big shootas on the bommers took out my last 2 missile launcher marines.

Things looked pretty bad for the deathwatch overall. However, fighting against the odds is what deathwatch are all about. My venerable dread had been working on the big lobba trukks since his arrival, and turn 3 saw him stomp a mudhole in the remaining ones so that nothing but wreckage remained. The captain and his retinue pursued the 2 bikers and destroyed them in melee, and the stalker bolter team (my favorite deathwatch unit so far) killed almost all of the tankbustas.

The rest of the game ended with the deathwatch overcoming great odds for victory - my captain met his warboss in a challenge, but it was the blackshield swinging his thunderhammer from the sidelines that destroyed the foul ork. His flyers circled the table, harassing units with their shootas but the majority of their work had been done upon their arrival. Game went on to turn 7, with Deathwatch scoring 9-0 overall.

grats on the victory and thanks for the batrep. Just out of curiosity, what makes you so love the stalker bolter unit so much? I might be just missing the obvious here, but heavy 2 sniper means they cant be mobile, so they just camp an objective all game? The 2 shots at max range seems nice and the special ammo is definitely awesome, but they are pretty much stuck in one spot all game, right?

The stalker team is able to snap fire on the move if necessary, and the librarian can cast prescience on them as well for when that is necessary. But yes they are typically set up on or near an objective and provide support fire where needed. Also if they need to rapidly relocate for better target acquisition they can once per game using the Beacon Angelis.

You could also take regular bolters too in place of your CCW for no downside. Lets you move and shoot accurately at up to 30" with kraken rounds.

Well, we believe you can. I'm still nervous about a LOT of the DW rulings, especially after Warhammer TV made a video about black shields being modeled with HTH, and then started commenting saying you CAN'T give them HTH.

Ah, makes sense. And if they do a DW FAQ, I wouldn't be surprised if they ignore RAW and go for their RAI instead.

I'm running my DW currently wysiwyg (except using scoped boltguns as stalker pattern) but post-FAQ if it's legal they will also carry standard boltgun ammo.

If I want to run a small Deathwatch force with my Scions, is it better to run a CAD/AD or just 1-2 Formations?

Requizen wrote:
If I want to run a small Deathwatch force with my Scions, is it better to run a CAD/AD or just 1-2 Formations?

You at least want a kill team. The doctrines make the deathwatch very reliable when rolling to wound.

Finished putting together the models for my killteams, so far I have, for a 1500 point list (I have a few more built, enough for an extra 250 points...):

Black Spear Formation

Captain Artemis, 145 pts
Jensus (Librarian L2), 95 pts

Killteam 1
Cassius (Chaplain) 95 pts
1 Terminator Librarian (L2) 115 pts
5 veterans (Sarge with SS and Xeno blade, 1 hellfire HB, 1 Blackshield with claws, 1 shotgun, 1 TH + SS) 250 pts
3 Vanguard veterans (HTH, TH + SS, Claws (Edryc)) 145 pts

Killteam 2
Terminator (Assault Cannon + Meltafist) 70 pts
Garran (Heavy Flamer + Meltafist) 60 pts
5 Veterans (2 Frag cannon, Powerfist, Shotgun, Blackshield TH +SS) 230 pts
3 Vanguard Veterans (HTH, TH+SS, Hand flamer (Antor)) 145 pts.

Venerable Dreadnought (Las Cannon, Flamer) 150 pts.

For a total of 1500 points, and 23 models!!
Am I going overboard with the equipment? Any thoughts on what I'm doing horribly wrong?

 ChaosDad wrote:
Finished putting together the models for my killteams, so far I have, for a 1500 point list (I have a few more built, enough for an extra 250 points...):

Black Spear Formation

Captain Artemis, 145 pts
Jensus (Librarian L2), 95 pts

Killteam 1
Cassius (Chaplain) 95 pts
1 Terminator Librarian (L2) 115 pts
5 veterans (Sarge with SS and Xeno blade, 1 hellfire HB, 1 Blackshield with claws, 1 shotgun, 1 TH + SS) 250 pts
3 Vanguard veterans (HTH, TH + SS, Claws (Edryc)) 145 pts

Killteam 2
Terminator (Assault Cannon + Meltafist) 70 pts
Garran (Heavy Flamer + Meltafist) 60 pts
5 Veterans (2 Frag cannon, Powerfist, Shotgun, Blackshield TH +SS) 230 pts
3 Vanguard Veterans (HTH, TH+SS, Hand flamer (Antor)) 145 pts.

Venerable Dreadnought (Las Cannon, Flamer) 150 pts.

For a total of 1500 points, and 23 models!!
Am I going overboard with the equipment? Any thoughts on what I'm doing horribly wrong?

Ok, first off in Kill Team 1 a chaplain isn't a choice for any of the kill teams (I recommend they all be Aquila but that's personal preference), but you do have a 3rd command slot available for the chaplain so that's really just a formatting issue, not an illegal list.
Secondly - on upgrades - the venerable upgrade for your dreadnought could be left off. Your lascannon is twin linked so bs5 is less necessary, and while you can force a re-roll on penetrating hits you're still losing hull points when taking damage so overall save the 25 pts there. If you're going to pay the points for the Xeno Blade it's more useful on a character with more attacks so a captain would be a better place to spend the same 25 points and get 2x the attacks. Other than nitpicky stuff though, deathwatch are natively going to be a low model count army. You have to make sure that you hit first and hit hard with your units or they could take some serious losses from return fire and then you'll be gutted.

You can take the list you have and certainly play some games with it - it should be fun for you. That's the best way to figure out what you need to add/delete/change in your army, really.

I dont know if anyone has looked into it but I think a psycannon might work as the basis for a frag cannon.

Also I agree with mainly the aquila squad, however I think having one dedicated troop hunter would be really good. With all the gladius transports/OS units it would be really helpful to get re-roll wounds/armor penetration. Could be the difference between killing a unit in one round of shooting or two.

 Leth wrote:
I dont know if anyone has looked into it but I think a psycannon might work as the basis for a frag cannon.

It'll definitely work (big, Shell-firing heavy weapon), but Anvil Industry's new Frag Launcher looks the part so much more. I might make two Frag Cannon Kill Teams instead of one as a result of this.

Yup. Got 7 on the way to make 2 teams for now.

I just realized kill team 1 might be a strategium command. If so my apologies.

tetrisphreak wrote:

Ok, first off in Kill Team 1 a chaplain isn't a choice for any of the kill teams (I recommend they all be Aquila but that's personal preference), but you do have a 3rd command slot available for the chaplain so that's really just a formatting issue, not an illegal list.
Secondly - on upgrades - the venerable upgrade for your dreadnought could be left off. Your lascannon is twin linked so bs5 is less necessary, and while you can force a re-roll on penetrating hits you're still losing hull points when taking damage so overall save the 25 pts there. If you're going to pay the points for the Xeno Blade it's more useful on a character with more attacks so a captain would be a better place to spend the same 25 points and get 2x the attacks. Other than nitpicky stuff though, deathwatch are natively going to be a low model count army. You have to make sure that you hit first and hit hard with your units or they could take some serious losses from return fire and then you'll be gutted.

You can take the list you have and certainly play some games with it - it should be fun for you. That's the best way to figure out what you need to add/delete/change in your army, really.

tetrisphreak wrote:I just realized kill team 1 might be a strategium command. If so my apologies.

Thanks for the feedback.
My guy with the Xenophase is modeled with a sanguinary guard chestplate and helmet, so he's captain-y enough... ( ) But with an extra captain I can't afford all those vanguards, so I'll take to extra "vanilla" vets on killteam 2...
I made the list only with my excel sheet of point values, not with the codex in hand, so the chaplain mistake was all mine, since I wanted to make two aquila kill teams. Now, that being said, the benefit of having it be a strategium command team is quite relevant, since the chaplain gives them furious charge, so that is what I'll do... The other one I'll also turn into a strategium, using one of the Librarian as leader, for the Deny the witch bonus...

So with that changed around, I get:

Black Spear Formation

Captain Artemis, 145 pts
Captain with Xenophase and shield, 135 pts

Killteam 1 (Strategium, Chap+aquila)
Cassius (Chaplain) 95 pts
Terminator (Assault Cannon + Meltafist) 70 pts
Garran (Heavy Flamer + Meltafist) 60 pts
5 veterans (HTH, 1 hellfire HB, 1 Blackshield with claws, 1 shotgun, 1 TH + SS) 240 pts
3 Vanguard veterans (HTH, TH + SS, Claws (Edryc)) 145 pts

Killteam 2 (Strategium, Lib+aquila)
Jensus (Librarian (L2)) 95 pts
1 Terminator Librarian (L2) 115 pts
7 Veterans (2 Frag cannon, Powerfist, Shotgun, Blackshield TH +SS) 274 pts

Dreadnought (Las Cannon, Flamer) 125 pts.

For a total of 1499 points, and 23 models!!

 Buzzdady wrote:
Could only do the small units of vets with a CAD, right?
And what are people using to model hand Flamers and inferno pistols?

The best place to find both of these is in the Blood Angels Death Company box. I think you get about 3 or 4 of each, left and right handed.

 ChaosDad wrote:
Finished putting together the models for my killteams, so far I have, for a 1500 point list (I have a few more built, enough for an extra 250 points...):

Black Spear Formation

Captain Artemis, 145 pts
Jensus (Librarian L2), 95 pts

Killteam 1
Cassius (Chaplain) 95 pts
1 Terminator Librarian (L2) 115 pts
5 veterans (Sarge with SS and Xeno blade, 1 hellfire HB, 1 Blackshield with claws, 1 shotgun, 1 TH + SS) 250 pts
3 Vanguard veterans (HTH, TH + SS, Claws (Edryc)) 145 pts

Killteam 2
Terminator (Assault Cannon + Meltafist) 70 pts
Garran (Heavy Flamer + Meltafist) 60 pts
5 Veterans (2 Frag cannon, Powerfist, Shotgun, Blackshield TH +SS) 230 pts
3 Vanguard Veterans (HTH, TH+SS, Hand flamer (Antor)) 145 pts.

Venerable Dreadnought (Las Cannon, Flamer) 150 pts.

For a total of 1500 points, and 23 models!!
Am I going overboard with the equipment? Any thoughts on what I'm doing horribly wrong?

You may just be using the overkill models as standard units if so ignore my next comment ;-)

I may be wrong but I don't think you can take the special characters from Deathwatch overkill in kill teams and the like, unless they have a rule somewhere that mentions they can be swapped for standard versions in formations like those in Death Masque do. None of them have mission tactics for a start.
You can take them as part of a CAD or allied detachment using them as there FOC role indicates.

The overkill models are wonderful, but more tactically appropriate to be used as standard deathwatch models. The problem with kill team cassius is that the weaponry loadout is very schizophrenic with no real focus for the squad. I find that units of any faction tend to do better when you can dial them in to a specific purpose or two. Deathwatch are a bit unique because they have so many ammo types available to them, but overall keep assault and shooting units separate.

Edit - for example a good assault team would consist of a strategium command squad led by a chaplain or captain (furious charge or fnp 6+) with shotgun veterans, maybe a frag cannon or two, and some vanguard with power weapons or lightning claws, and a blackshield with a thunder hammer or power mace & storm shield. Get some real punch. Shooting units can be aquila kill teams with librarians and stalker bolters, or CML terminators leading a unit of veterans armed with missile launchers. And, assuming it's legal post-FAQ, you can do your all-rounder unit if you like with standard boltguns and shotguns on the same models, allowing them to respond to just about any infantry threat via shooting and/or assault.

I agree, the overkill models as a squad feel very skizophrenic, that's why I'm peppering them between the kill teams...

The concept of three killteams, one "assaulty", one "shooty", and one "general", does feel like the right way to do it... but it gets expensive fast... I can easily see that it would fill up a 1850 list with only those...

I roughly estimate that for every 500 points in a deathwatch force there will be about 10-15 models, unless you give absolutely no weaponry upgrades whatsoever. So for an 1850 point army if i came up with a list that had 40-45 models in it I think that's about what should be expected.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
I roughly estimate that for every 500 points in a deathwatch force there will be about 10-15 models, unless you give absolutely no weaponry upgrades whatsoever. So for an 1850 point army if i came up with a list that had 40-45 models in it I think that's about what should be expected.

I hit around 7 or 8 per 500 points...

Le Sigh...

 Selym wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:
I roughly estimate that for every 500 points in a deathwatch force there will be about 10-15 models, unless you give absolutely no weaponry upgrades whatsoever. So for an 1850 point army if i came up with a list that had 40-45 models in it I think that's about what should be expected.

I hit around 7 or 8 per 500 points...

Le Sigh...

Even the deathwatch need a few bullet catchers though.

For heavily kitted out kill teams, I get 6 for ~400 pts. $ frag cannons, Sgt with a storm shield, and a libby with the beacon angelis, all in a drop pod, but I've been thinking about tossing in more vets to absorb wounds.

 tetrisphreak wrote:


Even the deathwatch need a few bullet catchers though.

That's why there are so many storm shields on my guys... although I do get your point, 3+ invul do fail 33% of the time...

Our cheapest bullet catchers are 22 points, though, that is still quite expensive to catch a bullet... I'd rather not give enough time to the enemy to send bullets my way...

 ChaosDad wrote:
Finished putting together the models for my killteams, so far I have, for a 1500 point list (I have a few more built, enough for an extra 250 points...):

Black Spear Formation

Captain Artemis, 145 pts
Jensus (Librarian L2), 95 pts

Killteam 1
Cassius (Chaplain) 95 pts
1 Terminator Librarian (L2) 115 pts
5 veterans (Sarge with SS and Xeno blade, 1 hellfire HB, 1 Blackshield with claws, 1 shotgun, 1 TH + SS) 250 pts
3 Vanguard veterans (HTH, TH + SS, Claws (Edryc)) 145 pts

Killteam 2
Terminator (Assault Cannon + Meltafist) 70 pts
Garran (Heavy Flamer + Meltafist) 60 pts
5 Veterans (2 Frag cannon, Powerfist, Shotgun, Blackshield TH +SS) 230 pts
3 Vanguard Veterans (HTH, TH+SS, Hand flamer (Antor)) 145 pts.

Venerable Dreadnought (Las Cannon, Flamer) 150 pts.

For a total of 1500 points, and 23 models!!
Am I going overboard with the equipment? Any thoughts on what I'm doing horribly wrong?

Not enough model count, and foot slogging marines will get ripped apart fast.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:


Not enough model count, and foot slogging marines will get ripped apart fast.

Well, the formation rules gives everything deep strike, so I'm not sure how much footslogging there will be...
What do you suggest?

Landraiders? Drop Pods?

 ChaosDad wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:


Not enough model count, and foot slogging marines will get ripped apart fast.

Well, the formation rules gives everything deep strike, so I'm not sure how much footslogging there will be...
What do you suggest?

Landraiders? Drop Pods?

The problem with having so few models and non DP deepstrike is you still need something on the board or you auto lose. I'd suggest DPs and drop the amount of melee items (i.e. you don't need a power fist and a 2nd TH when you have a HTH and a 1st TH imo.)

 ChaosDad wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:


Not enough model count, and foot slogging marines will get ripped apart fast.

Well, the formation rules gives everything deep strike, so I'm not sure how much footslogging there will be...
What do you suggest?

Landraiders? Drop Pods?

So they gonna come down on a warp spider or scatter bike spam army and kill maybe 2-3 units and then get picked part as they footslog.

The best suggestion is don't waste too much money to make a All DW army, rather use them as allied support