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Yea, that would work. Obviously limiting you to tzeentch and forcing you to take marks, but yes. Raptor talons could charge from deepstrike without being affected by terrain( warlord trait), even warp talons with storm shields if you want or non scattering terminators (warlord trait again) also with stormshields. One can only wonder what kind of shenanigans we can pull with the traitor legion supplement.

Nvs wrote:
I may have missed it as I've been trying to get caught up on a lot of this stuff since Thanksgiving. But did anyone mention if the hobby sections in the books provide for alternative color schemes? Is there a non-Ahriman red and gold scheme for example? Is there anything in the background to further justify this?

The fluff book ends (chapter 4) with 6 2-page spreads of alt color schemes from the 9 cults. Not huge differences, metallics and shades of blue, though there is a red one. Kinda cool how each scheme gives the tzaangor different color body/fur/feathers or whatever.

Davor wrote:

Or how about they get it, they understand but still have a differing opinion? Ah the Sheldon syndrome. If you don't agree you are wrong.

No, some people literally don't get it as proven by the next post from yours:

ERJAK wrote:
I don't really get all the anti-primarchs coming back hate.

1. All the evil primarchs have been alive and active for 10000 years, who gives a gak if they suddenly have 'good' primarchs too?

2. 40k fluff is basically a bad Michael Bay acid trip in space anyway. An arthouse masterpiece it is not.

Yes, chaos primarchs have always existed, so giving them rules and models is not altering the setting, it is in fact, really cool.

However, a big part of Imperium's theme is that is a crumbling dystopia, it's glory days long past it and barely remembered legends. Bringing back mythical superheroes of the legends would drastically undermine that theme. That is a big chance. Now, you're perfectly free to not care or even like that change, but it is a change nevertheless and it should be perfectly understandable that people who like the setting as it is are not happy about it.

 nintura wrote:
40k is leagues ahead of fantasy

Based on what measure?

I don't know a great deal about WFB, but I've been reading more and more about it now that I'm playing through Total War: Warhammer. The idea that it is somehow deficient in story/setting compared to 40k is laughable.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 nintura wrote:
40k is leagues ahead of fantasy

Based on what measure?

I don't know a great deal about WFB, but I've been reading more and more about it now that I'm playing through Total War: Warhammer. The idea that it is somehow deficient in story/setting compared to 40k is laughable.

Which version came out first and in what year? Which version has the most novels and books? Which version has the most factions to work with? Material alone, there is enough written about the 40k universe to fill half a library.

 Crimson wrote:

Davor wrote:

Or how about they get it, they understand but still have a differing opinion? Ah the Sheldon syndrome. If you don't agree you are wrong.

No, some people literally don't get it as proven by the next post from yours:

ERJAK wrote:
I don't really get all the anti-primarchs coming back hate.

1. All the evil primarchs have been alive and active for 10000 years, who gives a gak if they suddenly have 'good' primarchs too?

2. 40k fluff is basically a bad Michael Bay acid trip in space anyway. An arthouse masterpiece it is not.

Yes, chaos primarchs have always existed, so giving them rules and models is not altering the setting, it is in fact, really cool.

However, a big part of Imperium's theme is that is a crumbling dystopia, it's glory days long past it and barely remembered legends. Bringing back mythical superheroes of the legends would drastically undermine that theme. That is a big chance. Now, you're perfectly free to not care or even like that change, but it is a change nevertheless and it should be perfectly understandable that people who like the setting as it is are not happy about it.

How does this undermine the theme? The theme has always been super-post-humans fighting against the dying of the light. If anything, bringing back the Primarchs just illustrates how dire the situation is. It drives home the idea that things are at their most desperate.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:

How does this undermine the theme? The theme has always been super-post-humans fighting against the dying of the light. If anything, bringing back the Primarchs just illustrates how dire the situation is. It drives home the idea that things are at their most desperate.

It undermines the declining empire theme if it's greatest heroes, and arguably greatest scientific achievements, the Primarchs return. It destroys the 'mythic past' aspect of the Heresy, if the demigods from that legendary era walk among the people. As someone said earlier, it's like if King Arthur or Jesus actually came back, it changes everything.

 Crimson wrote:

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:

How does this undermine the theme? The theme has always been super-post-humans fighting against the dying of the light. If anything, bringing back the Primarchs just illustrates how dire the situation is. It drives home the idea that things are at their most desperate.

It undermines the declining empire theme if it's greatest heroes, and arguably greatest scientific achievements, the Primarchs return. It destroys the 'mythic past' aspect of the Heresy, if the demigods from that legendary era walk among the people. As someone said earlier, it's like if King Arthur or Jesus actually came back, it changes everything.

Not seeing the problem. Their greatest heroes come back...and still can't turn the tide of Tyranid flesh and Necron metal.
The last great hope came true...and it didn't stop the doom. That sounds pretty dark and hopeless.
Light is still dying, people still fighting against it. Theme still intact.

The thing is, the Primarchs returning will shake up the statue quo for a lot of the Imperiums leadership. I could easily see them branding said long lost heroes as traitors and heretics, that they are spouting non-sense about the Imperial Truth (heresy!), or claiming that they were missing during these dark times, when mankind needed them most, etc...And it would work, most likely. Especially with Magnus being the first Primarch to return, setting the precedence for the rest.

Which version came out first and in what year? Which version has the most novels and books? Which version has the most factions to work with? Material alone, there is enough written about the 40k universe to fill half a library.

Fantasy was released back in 83, 40k was released in 87.
So fantasy came first.

Fantasy also has more books by far.
Define factions? are we talking space marines in general or splitting all chapters?
Either way, fantasy yet again.

Doesnt matter how you cut it, fantasy came before 40k and the sheer volume of material for it is amazing.
So no, 40k does not have more "lore" to it atall.


Also, keep in mind your saying 40k, so all heresy era stuff is out aswell since that would be 30k at present.

 Jackal wrote:

Which version came out first and in what year? Which version has the most novels and books? Which version has the most factions to work with? Material alone, there is enough written about the 40k universe to fill half a library.

Fantasy was released back in 83, 40k was released in 87.
So fantasy came first.

Fantasy also has more books by far.
Define factions? are we talking space marines in general or splitting all chapters?
Either way, fantasy yet again.

Doesnt matter how you cut it, fantasy came before 40k and the sheer volume of material for it is amazing.
So no, 40k does not have more "lore" to it atall.


Also, keep in mind your saying 40k, so all heresy era stuff is out aswell since that would be 30k at present.

40K does have more full novels, but a huge chunk of them are the Horus Heresy series and of the rest the majority are Space Marine books of different flavours. Fantasy has less novels overall but those it has are more spread among all the races and factions so you actually get more information about the setting as a whole, from loads of different viewpoints compared to the more Imperium-centric 40K. Sure, all the Space Marine chapters have different ways of doing things (some more than others) but not to the extent of the difference between Dwarfs and Dark Elves, as an example.

CaptainSomas wrote:
The thing is, the Primarchs returning will shake up the statue quo for a lot of the Imperiums leadership. I could easily see them branding said long lost heroes as traitors and heretics, that they are spouting non-sense about the Imperial Truth (heresy!), or claiming that they were missing during these dark times, when mankind needed them most, etc...And it would work, most likely. Especially with Magnus being the first Primarch to return, setting the precedence for the rest.

Emperor-worship could be quite the devisive thing if loyalist Primarchs return. They were adamantly against it, as the Emperor Himself commanded. The only one to venerate the Emperor as a deity was the Primarch of the Word Bearers and argueably the one who started the entire Horus Heresy. If the Primarchs return and see the Imperium has devolved into Emperor-worship, it might be grounds for the fracturing of the Imperium and a new Great Crusade of sorts. Of course, the existing Imperium would not tolorate the unwillingness of these "usurpers" to worship their God-Emperor, especially the High Lords of Terra who may see the Primarchs as a threat to their rule...

 nintura wrote:
Which version came out first and in what year? Which version has the most novels and books? Which version has the most factions to work with? Material alone, there is enough written about the 40k universe to fill half a library.

*record scratch*

Hold the phone...

1. How new are you to all this.
2. When you say Fantasy, are you talking about Age of Sigmar alone?
3. If the answer to question 2 is 'yes', then are you aware that prior to the invention of Sigmarines there was a game called Warhammer Fantasy Battles, that it was enormous, ran for 30 years, and has more lore than you can shake a squig at.

Loopstah wrote:
I more imagine the "unmake a god" part is them surrounding the Golden Throne and finally killing the Big E himself to allow him to finally become whole in the warp and ascend to become the 6th Chaos God. That way all the loyalist Primarchs get to return as Daemon princes as well, and GW gets to sell a ton of huge expensive models that don't cut into the sales of their 30K counterparts.

For what its worth i think this sounds awesome

 Crimson wrote:

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:

How does this undermine the theme? The theme has always been super-post-humans fighting against the dying of the light. If anything, bringing back the Primarchs just illustrates how dire the situation is. It drives home the idea that things are at their most desperate.

It undermines the declining empire theme if it's greatest heroes, and arguably greatest scientific achievements, the Primarchs return. It destroys the 'mythic past' aspect of the Heresy, if the demigods from that legendary era walk among the people. As someone said earlier, it's like if King Arthur or Jesus actually came back, it changes everything.

Feth the current theme. It's BORING. Literally no action anyone in all the galaxy takes matters because NOTHING HAPPENS. So to correct that, they move the story forward, a snails pace to be sure, milk it for another 20 years; big universe after all. But here's the thing, the good guys are hopelessly outmatched. 6 Demon Primarchs, just as many named, powerful characters as in the whole of the imperium, and an endless legion of greater demons and former legionaires to pull even bigger bads out of. The outcome would be hilariously foregone, even to a casual reader. Why then, get invested? Why, if you've never followed the fluff before, bother trying to catch up when at the end of the day all you're doing is watching the dirt settle on the grave of the imperium. So you need heroes, big names, names that would cause as many problems as they would offer solutions but little tiny glimmers of possibility. Watching a decrepit broken down imperium finally fall would ultimately lack meaning, even for Chaos. Seeing an Imperium topple as it's greatest heroes fail, as it's final opportunity to save itself, to bring itself back from the edge, is squandered, that would be a compelling story.

 Crimson wrote:

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:

How does this undermine the theme? The theme has always been super-post-humans fighting against the dying of the light. If anything, bringing back the Primarchs just illustrates how dire the situation is. It drives home the idea that things are at their most desperate.

It undermines the declining empire theme if it's greatest heroes, and arguably greatest scientific achievements, the Primarchs return. It destroys the 'mythic past' aspect of the Heresy, if the demigods from that legendary era walk among the people. As someone said earlier, it's like if King Arthur or Jesus actually came back, it changes everything.

But what if Jesus comes back, and says "Guess what, guys, I'm not white. Let's enslave all the white people"....

Ok that is extreme. But a Primarch coming back *could* have a similar effect.

Look at how the imperium is now, vs. how the primarchs left it. They most likely would be pretty pissed that the Imperium is in the state of decay it currently is in, and that most of the citizens now worship either the Emperor or the Chaos Gods, rather than upholding the Imperial Truth. They could just as easily work AGAINST the Imperium rather than for it, since it has fallen so far from it's former glory. They may not even agree about keeping good ol' Dad on life support for 10,000 years.

Let's cut to the chase. You keep exclaiming that it will "undermine" the theme if they bring them back. I think you don't quite grasp the meaning of the term. Just because it alters the setting, doesn't mean it is "undermining" the theme, simply because you don't like the direction it is going in.

In order to combat the greatest antagonists, you need some protagonists. Any writer of any story ever can tell you such. You need some champions or else it starts to lose the suspension of disbelief. Lord of the Rings would have been a drastically different story with no humans, elves, or dwarves. It would just be a bunch of furry-footed hobbits getting put to the sword. That would have been boring for the reader, easily predictable. If the hobbits had somehow overpowered the evil forces in open combat, that would have been even worse, since it would be so ridiculous.

You can have your opinion. But you don't have to keep whining about it and telling everybody they are wrong, too. It's enough to say "I wouldn't like it if the Primarchs come back, but oh well"

Sorry to get off the topic of primarchs and back to the release at hand, but does anyone know if you can mix weaponry on the Tzaangors in the same unit? I really want to use my AoS Tzaangors and I figure that mixing the weaponry will help hide the lack of poses on both them and the figures from the new box.

Yes, let's cut the offtopic shall we. Discussing what an eventual return of the "good" primarchs may change in the 40k setting seems like a way different topic than discussing the upcoming Thousand Sons release.

I'm curious about Tzaangors, because quite frankly, I'm not sure what their point is. Surely if you want cannon fodder and/or objective holders, 10 pink horrors is superior in every concieveable way?
Is there a formation that will make them do...well, anything really? Seems a waste to add a "new" unit (Yes, I know it existed back when the world was young) only to have them act as fodder.

quick question because i can't find it back, wasn't there a formation for the Daemons that doubled the amounts of Horrors spawing from the Split rule?

 MinscS2 wrote:

I'm curious about Tzaangors, because quite frankly, I'm not sure what their point is. Surely if you want cannon fodder and/or objective holders, 10 pink horrors is superior in every concieveable way?
Is there a formation that will make them do...well, anything really? Seems a waste to add a "new" unit (Yes, I know it existed back when the world was young) only to have them act as fodder.

I don't think GW always thinks in terms of what role models serve and whether or not they are strictly inferior to competitor units.
This set of models looks like an AoS release with a sprue of 40k weapons added as an afterthought and also as a quick win for the company. I personally love the models and I'm glad they made them usable in 40K. I'd also rather choose them than horrors simply because I don't much like the horror models.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
quick question because i can't find it back, wasn't there a formation for the Daemons that doubled the amounts of Horrors spawing from the Split rule?

its not a formation, its a loci that one herald can get. so the horrors in his unit split twice as much.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
quick question because i can't find it back, wasn't there a formation for the Daemons that doubled the amounts of Horrors spawing from the Split rule?

exalted locus of creation (35 pts), pg 57

 VeteranNoob wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
quick question because i can't find it back, wasn't there a formation for the Daemons that doubled the amounts of Horrors spawing from the Split rule?

exalted locus of creation (35 pts), pg 57

Vet may I ask what the Icon of Flame does now?

Okay, Pink Horrors split on their death into 2 blue horrors, like they used to. Do they still have the brotherhood of sorcerers rules?

I have an entire Daemon Army that revovles around Pink Horrors and I need to know whether I'm buying a ton of new blue horrors, or scrapping the army.

 adamsouza wrote:
Okay, Pink Horrors split on their death into 2 blue horrors, like they used to. Do they still have the brotherhood of sorcerers rules?

I have an entire Daemon Army that revovles around Pink Horrors and I need to know whether I'm buying a ton of new blue horrors, or scrapping the army.

here is the exact rule: "Split: If a friendly unit of Pink Horrors suffers any casualities, the salin Horrors will split and create Blue Horrors at the end of that Phase (after all other units have performed their actions and made their attacks).
Two Blue Horrors are created for each slain Pink Horror- if there is allready a friendly Blue Horror unit within 6" of the Ping Horrors, add the newly created Blue Horrors to that unit, otherwise set them up as a new unit within 6" of the unit of Pink Horrors.
If a rule causes a Whole unit of Pink Horrors to be Removed at once (excluding Daemonic Instability), you can immediatly create a unit of Blue Horrors, just before removing the last model from the Pink Horrors unit. The unit of Blue Horrors has to models for each model in the unit of Pink Horrors at the point at which it is removed, and must be set up with all models within 6" of the last model from the Pink Horror unit."

Blue and Brimstone Horrors both stil are Brotherhood of Sorcerors. Blue horrors with 11-20 models generate 2 Warp Charges, while Brimstone Horrors only can ever generate 1 Warpcharge.

Its also worth mentioning that Horrors only have access to the Tzeentch Discipline now. no longer daemonology.

Souba wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Okay, Pink Horrors split on their death into 2 blue horrors, like they used to. Do they still have the brotherhood of sorcerers rules?

I have an entire Daemon Army that revovles around Pink Horrors and I need to know whether I'm buying a ton of new blue horrors, or scrapping the army.

here is the exact rule: "Split: If a friendly unit of Pink Horrors suffers any casualities, the salin Horrors will split and create Blue Horrors at the end of that Phase (after all other units have performed their actions and made their attacks).
Two Blue Horrors are created for each slain Pink Horror- if there is allready a friendly Blue Horror unit within 6" of the Ping Horrors, add the newly created Blue Horrors to that unit, otherwise set them up as a new unit within 6" of the unit of Pink Horrors.
If a rule causes a Whole unit of Pink Horrors to be Removed at once (excluding Daemonic Instability), you can immediatly create a unit of Blue Horrors, just before removing the last model from the Pink Horrors unit. The unit of Blue Horrors has to models for each model in the unit of Pink Horrors at the point at which it is removed, and must be set up with all models within 6" of the last model from the Pink Horror unit."

Blue and Brimstone Horrors both stil are Brotherhood of Sorcerors. Blue horrors with 11-20 models generate 2 Warp Charges, while Brimstone Horrors only can ever generate 1 Warpcharge.

Its also worth mentioning that Horrors only have access to the Tzeentch Discipline now. no longer daemonology.

thats still pretty terrifying since you can just set up the blue horrors 6" away and move them away from each other and end up with a bunch of 3-4 man units.

exactly and not to forget playing those horrors in a regular combined arms detatchment grants them objective secured. getting those off a objective is nigh impossible.

Souba wrote:
Its also worth mentioning that Horrors only have access to the Tzeentch Discipline now. no longer daemonology.

NNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

Is the Tzeentch discipline sny better now ?

ERJAK wrote:
Feth the current theme. It's BORING. Literally no action anyone in all the galaxy takes matters because NOTHING HAPPENS. So to correct that, they move the story forward, a snails pace to be sure, milk it for another 20 years; big universe after all. But here's the thing, the good guys are hopelessly outmatched. 6 Demon Primarchs, just as many named, powerful characters as in the whole of the imperium, and an endless legion of greater demons and former legionaires to pull even bigger bads out of. The outcome would be hilariously foregone, even to a casual reader. Why then, get invested? Why, if you've never followed the fluff before, bother trying to catch up when at the end of the day all you're doing is watching the dirt settle on the grave of the imperium. So you need heroes, big names, names that would cause as many problems as they would offer solutions but little tiny glimmers of possibility. Watching a decrepit broken down imperium finally fall would ultimately lack meaning, even for Chaos. Seeing an Imperium topple as it's greatest heroes fail, as it's final opportunity to save itself, to bring itself back from the edge, is squandered, that would be a compelling story.

Hopeless or not is up for players to fight out on the tabletop...That was always the idea in 40k. Setting for players to fight out the story. GW wasn't supposed to provide the story as that's just limiting players own imagination and stories. But guess some people need to be hand fed stories rather than do their own.

And for not mattering...AOS is prime example of not mattering when GW has designed whole new setting so that it's 100% irrelevant what happens. So yeah good job from GW. In 40k at least it's possible for one side to lose. In AOS nobody CAN lose.

Hope the fluff leaks are legit. Finally means Lorgar isn't sulking like a big baby in his tower anymore.

I will buy ALL the Exalted Sorcerers this weekend!