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**DarkStarSabre**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
andysonic1 wrote:
You must not play CSM to not realize how middling all these updates to a lackluster/bad codex are.

You must not play Sister if the news of more plastic models and units rules makes you unhappy.

DarkStarSabre wrote:
But it's more like in order to be viable and on par with an army chosen from a single Codex (Space Marines, Eldar, Tau, Space Wolves) we need - the core codex, one formation from Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter and KDK, one formation from the dataslates, Be'lakor, the disciplines from Traitors Hate, IA 13 for like, two units. And that's just to be 'on par' with baseline Codex armies. That's 8 books before we even consider allies.

How to beat Sisters with CSM:
- 1: Take Helldrakes.
- 2: ???
- 3: You have a model that is basically unkillable and that will literally kill every infantry it can fit behind his torrent flamer on a potentially rerollable 2+. Did I mention it Instant Death all our characters?
It only takes the basic CSM codex for this.

How to beat Sisters with CSM after Sisters get their upgrade:
- 1: Hell has frozen over.
- 2: ???
- 3: We all died of old age.

Ah, so the army is perfectly fine because it fares relatively well against the other bottom tier faction.

Wait, let's compare ally matrixes since you are crying doom still

What's that? Battle Brothers with Armies of the Imperium? OH MY.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

DarkStarSabre wrote:
Ah, so the army is perfectly fine because it fares relatively well against the other bottom tier faction.

Never said the CSM were fine.
You may have missed the messages I was answering to.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/300/708759.page#9046079
Of freaking course I am going to compare CSM to Sisters when I'm answering CSM players that complains about how Sisters players have it better than CSM players. What should I compare them to?

**Slayer le boucher**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

How to beat Sisters with CSM:
- 1: Take Helldrakes.
- 2: ???
- 3: You have a model that is basically unkillable and that will literally kill every infantry it can fit behind his torrent flamer on a potentially rerollable 2+. Did I mention it Instant Death all our characters?
It only takes the basic CSM codex for this.

Yeah because ONE Heldrake can burn a WHOLE army on its own with his 45* AoF and its 8" flamer template...

**DarkStarSabre**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
DarkStarSabre wrote:
Ah, so the army is perfectly fine because it fares relatively well against the other bottom tier faction.

Never said the CSM were fine.
You may have missed the messages I was answering to.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/300/708759.page#9046079
Of freaking course I am going to compare CSM to Sisters when I'm answering CSM players that complains about how Sisters players have it better than CSM players. What should I compare them to?

You're missing a key point.

Sisters do have it better than CSM players. You have a far stronger ally matrix and a newer codex (irony, I know). Now, I know the common sister complaint - but our range is dated! Half your range is 'newer' than half the CSM range. No, really.

And your range is aesthetically consistent. Plus, there are still people playing using RT era miniatures for their 7th ed. Space Marines.

I'm somewhat horrified how a general Imperial Agents release has turned into a clusterfeth of Sisters players complaining bitterly when it's still 2-3 weeks off (so rules leaks are really about a week and a half, two weeks away) and the very name of the book implies that it may not be the dedicated Codex they want but if anything a splash release leading to something more.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Slayer le boucher wrote:
Yeah because ONE Heldrake can burn a WHOLE army on its own with his 45* AoF and its 8" flamer template...

I used the plural form. And no, not the whole army, just critical parts of it. As in, literally any unit you decide that you want to see dead except Exorcists and Conclave. Don't forget to pop rhinos in the same turn you destroy a unit too.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarkStarSabre wrote:
Sisters do have it better than CSM players.

Sure. Go cry in your shiny new plastic models. Oh some new plastic Ahriman, that's so sad! And Scarab terminators, so terrible. I wish I didn't have this all new shiny plastic Abaddon coming. I can hardly contain my pain at the idea of getting new plastic rubric marines. And what's that? A demon primarch? Sisters are so lucky they don't get any new model and their old models are getting retired from sale one by one.

DarkStarSabre wrote:
You have a far stronger ally matrix

So your point is that Sisters can decide to play Marines instead? But you can too! Just switch to Ultramarine if that's what you want to play.

DarkStarSabre wrote:
and a newer codex (irony, I know).

Except for all the new extra stuff you got in addition to the codex. Don't forget to complain you got too many! I mean, such a bane, getting more options, new units, new characters, rules improvement and all that.

**Kaiyanwang**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
andysonic1 wrote:
You must not play CSM to not realize how middling all these updates to a lackluster/bad codex are.

You must not play Sister if the news of more plastic models and units rules makes you unhappy.

DarkStarSabre wrote:
But it's more like in order to be viable and on par with an army chosen from a single Codex (Space Marines, Eldar, Tau, Space Wolves) we need - the core codex, one formation from Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter and KDK, one formation from the dataslates, Be'lakor, the disciplines from Traitors Hate, IA 13 for like, two units. And that's just to be 'on par' with baseline Codex armies. That's 8 books before we even consider allies.

How to beat Sisters with CSM:
- 1: Take Helldrakes.
- 2: ???
- 3: You have a model that is basically unkillable and that will literally kill every infantry it can fit behind his torrent flamer on a potentially rerollable 2+. Did I mention it Instant Death all our characters?
It only takes the basic CSM codex for this.

How to beat Sisters with CSM after Sisters get their upgrade:
- 1: Hell has frozen over.
- 2: ???
- 3: We all died of old age.

Just saying, what about the avenger strike fighter? Maybe proxied with a modified valkyrie?

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Well, that's not a Sister model, and that's not GW proper rules either. So yeah, if you are okay with using non-Sisters models and your opponent is okay with you using FW rules, you can also take 90% of space marines in your force including the most broken FW stuff, indeed.

**andysonic1**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Well, that's not a Sister model, and that's not GW proper rules either. So yeah, if you are okay with using non-Sisters models and your opponent is okay with you using FW rules, you can also take 90% of space marines in your force including the most broken FW stuff, indeed.

Do you enjoy going online and acting persecuted? You won't be happy, you won't be satisfied, we get it, you can go now. I'd rather discuss possible upgrades to make the majority of CSM models and rules viable again then wade through pages of sisters tears for another thread.

**Kaiyanwang**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Well, that's not a Sister model, and that's not GW proper rules either. So yeah, if you are okay with using non-Sisters models and your opponent is okay with you using FW rules, you can also take 90% of space marines in your force including the most broken FW stuff, indeed.

If your opponent deploys 1+ baleflamer against sisters, I seriously hope this guy is ok with a FW flyer way less broken that so much GW stuff and AFAIK explicitly allowed to SoB (correct me if I am wrong in this).

I am the biggest whiner ever about GW but if the solution is there, grab it.

**Loopstah**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Well, that's not a Sister model, and that's not GW proper rules either. So yeah, if you are okay with using non-Sisters models and your opponent is okay with you using FW rules, you can also take 90% of space marines in your force including the most broken FW stuff, indeed.

Last I checked it had official 40K rules and could be taken as part of a SoB army. In fact I had one to provide some air support for my sisters. That's before the utter negativity and dummy throwing of other sisters players made me bin them before I became as bitter and twisted as the rest of them.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

andysonic1 wrote:
Do you enjoy going online and acting persecuted?

That's why I can't take CSM players seriously I guess.

andysonic1 wrote:
I'd rather discuss possible upgrades to make the majority of CSM models and rules viable again then wade through pages of sisters tears for another thread.

Here, let me lend you a helping hand:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/705017.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709504.page

**andysonic1**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Here, let me lend you a helping hand:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/705017.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709504.page

Good idea, I'll abandon this thread to your whining and go have actual discussions.

**DarkStarSabre**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
andysonic1 wrote:
Do you enjoy going online and acting persecuted?

That's why I can't take CSM players seriously I guess.

So rather than proving them wrong....you decide to prove him right?

All we need is Traditio to show up here, declare both Sisters and CSM to be OP and needing nerfs to the ground while his free transport SM Battle Company is perfectly fair and we'll have successfully accomplished Dakka Bingo!

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

DarkStarSabre, why don't you follow andysonic1, and go complain about having tons of cool new models and rad new rules somewhere else?

**DarkStarSabre**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
DarkStarSabre, why don't you follow andysonic1, and go complain about having tons of cool new models and rad new rules somewhere else?

Nah. Because, you see, this thread also exists. You want to bitch about the Sisters range? Go open something up on general.

Not that I'll see, because the option to block someone who literally only came here to play the victim and bleat is just great.

Cheerio.

**MadCowCrazy**

unmercifulconker wrote:
So thanks to Hellath over at B&C for posting this, seems Spanish GW got a tease of Jan's WD:

So people are saying its Abs which most likely means he's getting a shiny new plastic look, now as a matter of interest, where was that list of release rumours that someone brought back up from Natfka? Cant find it again but just wanted to check since they got some of the Tzeentch stuff right, was there a mention of a new Abbadon?

Also.....Ma sisters....

You mean this release list?
http://natfka.blogspot.fi/2016/07/40k-8th-edition-campaigns-exciting-look.html
I thought it was debunked as fake even if it was released 4 months before we saw the first kits on the list released and now more and more kits from the list are being released. Doesn't have Sisters on it though :(

**DarkStarSabre**

MadCowCrazy wrote:
unmercifulconker wrote:
So thanks to Hellath over at B&C for posting this, seems Spanish GW got a tease of Jan's WD:

So people are saying its Abs which most likely means he's getting a shiny new plastic look, now as a matter of interest, where was that list of release rumours that someone brought back up from Natfka? Cant find it again but just wanted to check since they got some of the Tzeentch stuff right, was there a mention of a new Abbadon?

Also.....Ma sisters....

You mean this release list?
http://natfka.blogspot.fi/2016/07/40k-8th-edition-campaigns-exciting-look.html
I thought it was debunked as fake even if it was released 4 months before we saw the first kits on the list released and now more and more kits from the list are being released. Doesn't have Sisters on it though :(

The only things on that list that seemed vaguely accurate were the mentions of Magnus, Kharn and the TS Terminators. But even then the rumours went off on a tangent (heavy bolters on all the Terminators - uh....no).

It looks like a wishlist that took things that were mentioned elsewhere (iirc Kharn and Magnus were hinted at for a long time) and threw then together.

A lot of people seem to believe that Magnus = Confirmation of 40k end times when GW have done the large kit rodeo before in 40k (Trygons, Imperial Knights, Wraithknights, Riptides).

**Manchu**

Arguing about which complaints are off-topic is itself off-topic. And Rule Number Two is Stay On Topic. Thanks!

**andysonic1**

I'll also make use of the block function and be much happier for it, actually.

DarkStarSabre wrote:
MadCowCrazy wrote:
unmercifulconker wrote:
So thanks to Hellath over at B&C for posting this, seems Spanish GW got a tease of Jan's WD:

So people are saying its Abs which most likely means he's getting a shiny new plastic look, now as a matter of interest, where was that list of release rumours that someone brought back up from Natfka? Cant find it again but just wanted to check since they got some of the Tzeentch stuff right, was there a mention of a new Abbadon?

Also.....Ma sisters....

You mean this release list?
http://natfka.blogspot.fi/2016/07/40k-8th-edition-campaigns-exciting-look.html
I thought it was debunked as fake even if it was released 4 months before we saw the first kits on the list released and now more and more kits from the list are being released. Doesn't have Sisters on it though :(

The only things on that list that seemed vaguely accurate were the mentions of Magnus, Kharn and the TS Terminators. But even then the rumours went off on a tangent (heavy bolters on all the Terminators - uh....no).

It looks like a wishlist that took things that were mentioned elsewhere (iirc Kharn and Magnus were hinted at for a long time) and threw then together.

A lot of people seem to believe that Magnus = Confirmation of 40k end times when GW have done the large kit rodeo before in 40k (Trygons, Imperial Knights, Wraithknights, Riptides).

Did people want Magnus over, say, Angron? I'm not that steeped in Magnus' lore so I'm not sure if he's got some compelling backstory beyond everyone wanting to see Fenris burn for what they did to Prosbero.

**DarkStarSabre**

andysonic1 wrote:

Did people want Magnus over, say, Angron? I'm not that steeped in Magnus' lore so I'm not sure if he's got some compelling backstory beyond everyone wanting to see Fenris burn for what they did to Prosbero.

Not sure how they could have worked Angron in. The Supplement series was just ripe for Magnus to be brought in - and they also used it as their way to update Daemons and SW beforehand.

Now if they did some sort of 'Return to Armageddon' with Grey Knights and World Eaters....well...that is the window for both Angron and Mortarion as both have a history with GKs.

Plus Magnus is technically one of the easiest traitor Primarchs to bring in - he's not dead (Curze, Horus, Alpharius?), he's not been 'banished' (Angron, Mortarion), he's not a relative unknown in terms of his current status (Perturabo, Lorgar). The only other traitor Primarch who is as free at the moment is Fulgrim.

Thematically Magnus made more sense with the campaign.

**ERJAK**

DarkStarSabre wrote:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
DarkStarSabre wrote:
Ah, so the army is perfectly fine because it fares relatively well against the other bottom tier faction.

Never said the CSM were fine.
You may have missed the messages I was answering to.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/300/708759.page#9046079
Of freaking course I am going to compare CSM to Sisters when I'm answering CSM players that complains about how Sisters players have it better than CSM players. What should I compare them to?

You're missing a key point.

Sisters do have it better than CSM players. You have a far stronger ally matrix and a newer codex (irony, I know). Now, I know the common sister complaint - but our range is dated! Half your range is 'newer' than half the CSM range. No, really.

And your range is aesthetically consistent. Plus, there are still people playing using RT era miniatures for their 7th ed. Space Marines.

I'm somewhat horrified how a general Imperial Agents release has turned into a clusterfeth of Sisters players complaining bitterly when it's still 2-3 weeks off (so rules leaks are really about a week and a half, two weeks away) and the very name of the book implies that it may not be the dedicated Codex they want but if anything a splash release leading to something more.

So that first paragraph is pretty silly. Chaos demons are the second strongest faction in the game based on GT wins and Top 10 ITC presence behind Eldar. They are in the ally matrix for Chaos Space Marines. Saying 'but allies!' is ultimately a circuitous thing because both armies aren't great and both armies have really good ally options that you could basically replace your whole force org with. Dark Eldar are also in this boat.

Edit: To try and not be totally off topic, the imperial Agents book is pretty weird righr? Like is it just a hodgepodge of of factions all thrown together or is it gonna have something like TL is getting with like Chapter tactics for taking xy combination of units. I mean it'll have decurions in it but what else?

**MadCowCrazy**

DarkStarSabre wrote:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Now you know why I have issues with taking Sisters players seriously.

I'm sorry is this coming from people that whine about having too much new stuff to play with?

Vash108 wrote:
I may be missing some:
Chaos Codex
Deamon Codex
Black Legion
Crimson Slaughter
Khorne Deamonkin
Helbrute data slate
Cypher data slate
Belekor data slate
Wrath of Magnus
Traitors Hate

Having so many new cool stuff that you can't even track it all seems to make you so miserable .

So much cool stuff?

No, no no. If every single one of those was 'viable' and balanced then yeah, CSM would be bloated.

But it's more like in order to be viable and on par with an army chosen from a single Codex (Space Marines, Eldar, Tau, Space Wolves) we need - the core codex, one formation from Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter and KDK, one formation from the dataslates, Be'lakor, the disciplines from Traitors Hate, IA 13 for like, two units. And that's just to be 'on par' with baseline Codex armies. That's 8 books before we even consider allies.

And the real sting? The army will involve virtually NO Chaos Space Marines whatsoever. It's literally an army with some dinobots, some psykers, cultists and daemons.

The difference between Sisters and Chaos = Chaos has models in plastic and many different usable books. If you think your codex is bad you have no idea how bad the Sisters codex is. I see allot of people whine about Sisters players wanting new models and a proper codex, these people have no idea just how bad it is to be a Sisters player. A guy on the GW facebook pages asked "Why" Sisters should get an update because he hadn't seen one player since 5E. Here is my reply to him, do note I only cover the Infantry, there are ALLOT of other problems with the book. Feel free to compare the Sisters units to what CSM gets and you will thank the gods your army isn't as poorly balanced as the Sisters is.

Spoiler:

David Scott You just answered your own question. Last I checked it costs $105 to buy 1HQ and 2 units of 10Battle Sisters. It gets allot worse from there. For $1000 you get the same sized army others pay $300-400 for. Not to mention the rules are some of the worst in the game.

Since you ask "Why?" I guess you have no idea how the Sisters work. Their unique feature is called Acts of Faith, fluff wise they are small miracles that can happen on the battlefield because their belief in the Emperor is so great. You could say the Emperor is the Chaos God of Hope and he answers their prayers. In the 3e Witch Hunter codex the Acts of Faith were the best, you could get +2S, +2I, Rending, Fearless or Inv save equal to your armour save, any unit could get any of them and multiple times depending on your number of Faith Points (basically 1 per Sororitas unit +1 for each destroyed Sororitas unit). Compared to what armies get these days these are rather pathetic but it helped in allot of situations.

Then the WD happened and the AoF (Acts of Faith) became complete garbage, then the Digital Happened and some problems were fixed but they remain complete garbage for almost all units in the army. They changed it to be a once per game ability that lasts for one phase and they made each unit have different ones.

Canoness: Hatred for one phase per game.. Exactly what you want with your WS3, S3, I3 army.

Sororitas Command Squad: Move Through Cover... The most elite of the elite get Move Through Cover? Imagine if the only special ability a SM Command Squad got was Move Through Cover one movement phase once per game. No Chapter Tactics, no ATSKNF... just MTC one phase per game.

Battle Sisters: Preferred Enemy for one phase

Celestians: Furious Charge for one phase, because close combat is exactly where you want to be with this army...

Dominions: Ignores Cover for one phase... Sisters only have access to 3 types of weapons, the so called Holy Trinity that is the Bolter, Melta and Flamer. So here we have an AoF that doesn't do anything for Flamers, and pretty much useless for Storm Bolters (because you'd never take them) and really good for Meltas. Storm Bolters become Assault 10 and Flamers get Torrent would have been interesting but melta is the only thing Sisters do good.

Seraphim (Jump Infantry): Shred for one phase.. Yay, Shred with bolter pistols... Inferno Pistols and Hand Flamers is decent though. Seraphim used to be the only unit in the game that could shoot with both hand held weapons, now everyone can.

Sisters Repentia: Feel No Pain 3+ (Assault phase only), so your unit gets FnP 3+ one phase once per game. Since they only have a close combat chainfist and nothing else they might get to swing, if they make it to close combat at all...

Retributors: Rending.. This is the best AoF in the army and should be good. Heavy Bolters, Heavy Flamers and Multi-Meltas with Rending could be scary I guess. Too bad you never take them because a Exorcist (Kinda like a SM Whirlwind) is a smarter choice.

Now lets take a closer look at what makes this army unique, the Acts of Faith. They are listed above but what do they actually do for the army compared to other armies?
Pretty much nothing. Everything the Sisters get other armies get for free or better versions of. SM is a prime example of this.

Sisters get Acts of Faith, SM get Chapter Tactics.
Ultramarines get to use each Doctrine one each per game and when enacted every single Ultramarine is affected.

Tactical Doctrine: Re-roll 1s to hit in Shooting and Assault. Tactical Squads re-roll all failed to hit in shooting and assault.
Assault Doctrine: re-roll To Hit rolls of 1 in assault this turn, assault units instead re-roll all failed To Hit.

Devastator Doctrine: Re-roll To Hit on 1s in shooting phase. Devastator units re-roll all failed To Hit.

Notice how similar these are to the Battle Sisters Preferred enemy, difference is Sisters need to do a Faith Test (Ld test) to see if their work and if it does it's for one phase. SMs just works and last for the rest of the turn.

All sisters have a 6++ inv save, Iron Hands chapter gets FnP 6+ which gets better with if they received another source of FnP. This is pretty much the same as the Sisters 6++.

Then we have Imperial Fist Bolter Drill, Salamander Flamecraft, Black Templars Holy Crusaders. All of which contain rules the Sisters have but work better.

Then comes the points costs of units...
HQ Canoness: 65pts WS/BS5, I4, A3 rest 3 vs SM Captain 90pts WS6, BS5 I5, A3, rest 4. Iron Halo, ANSKNF, Chapter Tactics

Elite Celestian: 14pts WS/BS4 2A Ld9 Stubborn vs Tactical Marine 14pts 4on Everything plus special rules

Elite Repentia: 14pts S6 Ap2 Eviscerator, WS4, A2, Rage, Fleet, Fearless vs Assault Squad 14pts 4on all stats, 2A (2CCW), ranged weapon, 3+ armour save, can take 1 Eviscerator per 5 models. ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads.

Troop Battle Sister: 12pts BS4, 3on rest vs SM Scout 11pts 4on everything. ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads, Infiltrate, MTC, Scout. So you're telling me that a 3+ Armour save is equal to:-1pts cost per model +1WS, +1BS, +1S, +1T, +1I, all those special rules but a 4+ Armour Save

FA Seraphim: 15pts WS/BS4 rest 3 vs Assault Squad 14pts 4on everything +3pts for jump pack so 17pts for comparison

FA Dominion: 13pts BS4, 3on rest, Scout vs SM Scout 11pts 4on everything. ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads, Infiltrate, MTC, Scout. So you're telling me that a 3+ Armour save is equal to:-2pts cost per model +1WS, +1BS, +1S, +1T, +1I, all those special rules but a 4+ Armour Save

Heavy Support Retributor: 12pts BS4 rest 3 vs Devastator 14pts 4on everything and special rules.

Eviscerator for Sisters: 30pts, gives S6 Ap2 Armourbane
Eviscerator for SM: 25pts, gives S8 Ap2 Armourbane
Sisters Repentia get Eviscerator for free because the model only costs 14pts but are useless because Sisters have no assault vehicles and Repentia have no save.

Then we have the biggest slap in the face of Sisters players, the Minustorum Priest...
This little gak costs 25pts, Guardsman stats and gear but also a Rosarius (4++), War Hymns and Zealot.
What's so special about this little piece of gak you ask?
War Hymns is the answer, far better than the Acts of Faith and he gets 3 different ones.
War Hymns, perform Ld test and chose one in each Fight Sub-phase when locked in combat.
The Emperor Protects: UNIT re-roll all failed armour and inv saves until end of phase.
The Emperor's Strength: Priest gains Smash until end of phase
The Righteousness of the Emperor: UNIT re-rolls failled To Wound until end of phase.

Not only are the War Hymns better than the Acts of Faith, you can use them as many times as you want. There is a reason some armies contain 2 of these with their death stars (they use the IG codex to get them and not the Sisters Codex). For 50pts you can give your deathstar Re-roll Failed To Wound, Re-roll Failed Armour and Invulnerable Saves.

Do I need to go on or are you smart enough to see a pattern yet? Sisters cost the same or 1-2pts lower than SM units but the stat difference is horrendous and the special rules for SM ARE ALLOT BETTER. Anything sisters get from their Acts of Faith the SM get better versions of and army wide in allot of cases. There is only one thing Sisters do better than SM and that is spam melta guns, but melta guns became irrelevant with 6E of the game.

So why would you pay $1-2000 for an army that you can get for 1/3 the cost with SM, that is worse on pretty much every aspect, has less options and nothing that makes them special except for the look of the models?

I have written a 20 page compendium of all problems with the Sisters that I sent to the dev team when the WD came out, I saw some of the changes I recommended with the Digital release but they did not fix the general problem with the codex... the Acts of Faith. If a Sister is to cost the same as a SM but get -1 WS/BS/S/T/I and not have special rules equivalent in power to ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics and whatever else then the Acts of Faith need to be darn powerful if they are to work for one phase once per game.

Here is my recommendation for Acts of Faith:
Once per game ability per unit, Faith Points per unit is equal to Turn Number. So turn 1 you have 1 FP, Turn 5 you have 5.
So the tactical question is do you use your once a game ability early when units are at full strength or later in the game when you have more FP to spend?
Acts of Faith should go back to 3E Witch Hunters with more options.
+2S per FP spent
+2I per FP spent (I1 weapons strike at +1I per FP spent, so spend 3FP and you strike at I4 with Chainfists (Eviscerators)
+1 To Hit per FP
-2 To Enemy Cover save per FP
+2 Inv save per FP
+2AP on weapons per FP (if at Ap1 get +1 on dmg table, Ap 5 weapons become Ap3 for 1FP).
+2-3" Range per FP (Flamers get 2" Torrent per FP, so spend 4FP and your flamers can be placed 8-12" from the model
1 of the following per FP : MTC, Fleet, Rage, Furious Charge, Rending, Shred, Preferred Enemy, Fearless
Fire Weapons again for 3 FP

There are hundreds of ways to make the sisters better without lowering their points costs but if you make them cost the same as SM but MUCH worse across the line then their Acts of Faith need to be damn good to compensate.

As it is you could lower the points cost of every single Sisters model by -4 pts and it still wouldn't make much of a difference, you could even change their statline to be 4 across the board without much impact. You'd just get more bad units that under perform on every front compared to SM. Sisters ARE NOT SM! Why are they costed the same(ish) when they simply aren't the same.

**Nvs**

Sifting through all the side conversations I may have missed it, but is there anything new for Thousand Sons in the legion book? Will it be a direct port so if you have no interest in demons maybe you're better off going with the legion book over magnus?

**Roknar**

VeteranNoob wrote:
Roknar wrote:
ziggurattt wrote:
Is Marbo an "agent of the imperium"?

Cause I need Marbo back in my life.

I don't play IG but they really need Marbo back lol, he was just that awesome. Even on the tabletop.
The things that guy did on occasion... pure win lol

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GoatboyBeta wrote:
Roknar wrote:
Of course these days anything is possible really. Except a new csm codex apparently.

If this cover does herald a new Abbadon model, then I'm even more convinced that GW are using campaign books and supplement releases to update the CSM range as much as possible before a new codex.

I think it's pretty much confirmed if we do indeed get a deathguard campaign book like TSons got. At the very least it's guaranteed that we won't be getting a new codex until the new edition hits, whenever that is.
This model of staggered releases is fine with me, it just sucks that we're stuck with old tech for a long time. I'm sure they would give us kai guns back if with the release of a new codex, but I don't see that happening for any individual legion/warband.
Although maybe...maybe they could release a dark mirror to agents of the imperium with dark mech and stuff. Let's keep the dream alive

Since Warhammer Community thankfully posted this today with a good glimpse of what's in the book I can at least say this much. Afaik no new models with this release and Imperial Agents at the moment, though in 2017...woah nelly I'm a Death Guard player in 30K and probably will be in 40K eventually (though sticking with Building a TS army off the Wrath of Magnus release and then once I win the lottery, naturally, a 30K TS legion since Inferno will be out in February.) ...but, back to DG. Can't say anything specific until the review but I'm quite pleased with the DG rules, warlord traits, expanded Nurgle lore, artefacts, 6 specific objective cards and bonuses. But disclaimer: I'm only now with TS release becoming a CSM player for the first time so my expectations and satisfaction with content may be vastly different from anyone's, and I don't care for competitive 40K (especially the past 2 years), but I feel the fluff/theme of the legions is reflected well in the new rules. I'm also an Ork player and while I would love new or even better rules (especially for the Gork/Morkanauts) I fully understand Chaos players are long overdue for some attention and they're rightfully moved to the front of the queue.

To all my fellow sons of Mortarion, Count the Seven!

@Razor'sE... ha, brilliant! Marbo is da man. If The Duncan was a miniature, it would be Marbo

How dare you tease us like that

**DarkStarSabre**

Nvs wrote:
Sifting through all the side conversations I may have missed it, but is there anything new for Thousand Sons in the legion book? Will it be a direct port so if you have no interest in demons maybe you're better off going with the legion book over magnus?

Well Traitor Legions apparently is going to have Chapter Tactics equivalents...so no word on whether WoM is bonus material for them or whether it's going to be duplicated.

And before people say it's odd for things to be duplicated - I fully expect the Traitor's Hate disciplines to be in WoM - and if they crop up in Traitor Legions as well that will literally be the 3rd book in the span of 6 months where we've seen them (technically the 4th since they're just EVIL RENAMES of the SM disciplines.)

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VeteranNoob wrote:

Since Warhammer Community thankfully posted this today with a good glimpse of what's in the book I can at least say this much. Afaik no new models with this release and Imperial Agents at the moment, though in 2017...woah nelly I'm a Death Guard player in 30K and probably will be in 40K eventually (though sticking with Building a TS army off the Wrath of Magnus release and then once I win the lottery, naturally, a 30K TS legion since Inferno will be out in February.) ...but, back to DG. Can't say anything specific until the review but I'm quite pleased with the DG rules, warlord traits, expanded Nurgle lore, artefacts, 6 specific objective cards and bonuses. But disclaimer: I'm only now with TS release becoming a CSM player for the first time so my expectations and satisfaction with content may be vastly different from anyone's, and I don't care for competitive 40K (especially the past 2 years), but I feel the fluff/theme of the legions is reflected well in the new rules. I'm also an Ork player and while I would love new or even better rules (especially for the Gork/Morkanauts) I fully understand Chaos players are long overdue for some attention and they're rightfully moved to the front of the queue.

To all my fellow sons of Mortarion, Count the Seven!

So cheeky question time.

How feasible is it for me to make the DG decurion with the following...

Typhus
1 Sorcerer
1 Chaos Lord
2 Terminator Squads
4 Plague Marine Squads
1 Obliterator unit (2)
2 Rhinos
1 Land Raider

....?

Or am I going to have to dip into my 30k Death Guard to fill in some gaps? (Not that I'd mind, if the Chapter Tactic equivalent is tasty enough some Nurgle-marked generic CSM could be the order of the day).

**H.B.M.C.**

andysonic1 wrote:
Do you enjoy going online and acting persecuted?

Hybrid is a Sisters player. Point me to one of them who doesn't do this?

Hybrid just happens to be the most persecuted out of all of them, if Hybrid's posts are to be believed.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Manchu wrote:
Arguing about which complaints are off-topic is itself off-topic. And Rule Number Two is Stay On Topic. Thanks!

Why can't we get a “Imperial agent” thread, when there is already another official thread for the Traitor Legion supplement here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/705017.page ?

**ERJAK**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
andysonic1 wrote:
Do you enjoy going online and acting persecuted?

Hybrid is a Sisters player. Point me to one of them who doesn't do this?

Hybrid just happens to be the most persecuted out of all of them, if Hybrid's posts are to be believed.

To be fair, CSM and Sisters were two sides of the same coin for about 2 years. Then both factions got release teasers in the same video. Now CSM are getting a bunch of new models and rules and it's looking like SoB are getting rolled into someone else's codex with no new anything. It is a feelzbadman time for SoB.

**streamdragon**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Point me to one of them who doesn't do this?

sup

**dienekes96**

So do folks here actually think that Sisters of Battle appearing in Imperial Agents is the end of their journey???

With Genestealer Cults and Deathwatch and Adeptus Mechanicus releases in the past year? That this isn't merely a precursor to an eventual SoB (or Adepta Sororitas) Codex? An opportunity to gauge interest and generate some excitement?

Okay, I guess. I expect the opposite, then.