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I don't know if this is still topical, but regarding the old "plastic sisters in the bin was a joke" thing we do have a reliable rumor source saying otherwise:

Wait, they weren't joking when they talked about Sisters of Battle?

Lady Atia
Nope :X

 VeteranNoob wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
I can only see episode 173 on that site?

accursed cohost/page manager. Sorry. I'll flog him.
http://traffic.libsyn.com/combatphase/Ep_175_-_Codex_Imperial_Agents__KoW_Masters.mp3

We talk news, hobby and games played. We discuss and initial review (as revealing as we can be at this early stage) then Kris Kapsner joins us for KoW

Thanks for the link and the review - i will PM you about my thoughts.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I don't know if this is still topical, but regarding the old "plastic sisters in the bin was a joke" thing we do have a reliable rumor source saying otherwise:

Wait, they weren't joking when they talked about Sisters of Battle?

Lady Atia
Nope :X

Yep, it has been covered previously in this thread a couple times.

I was thinking of something that would encourage more "balanced" lists. How would you feel if 8th edition stated that only units from the primary detachment (regardless of other rules) can be objective secured. Troops from the allied detachment that would normally be objective secured could simply contest. All other units from the allied detachments couldn't contest at all.

That should help limit allies shenanigans.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I was thinking of something that would encourage more "balanced" lists. How would you feel if 8th edition stated that only units from the primary detachment (regardless of other rules) can be objective secured. Troops from the allied detachment that would normally be objective secured could simply contest. All other units from the allied detachments couldn't contest at all.

That should help limit allies shenanigans.

That would be a post for Proposed Rules.

Monkeys are elite so you can take the inquisitorial representative and have 1-3 elites your elite choices are acolytes, demonhosts, or monkeys

Versatilebeats wrote:
Monkeys are elite so you can take the inquisitorial representative and have 1-3 elites your elite choices are acolytes, demonhosts, or monkeys

But they don't have a rule like the rule for Ork Mek's that allow them to join a unit?

So they lost their ability to buff units unless you take the formation, right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Zero part of this list looks "fun" to play against, which I would argue is an exact COUNTER to what GW wants. You don't get to decide how "fun" is defined, so things need to be reeled back a bit.

GW doesn't want us to have fun. They want us to call each other names, and then go home and paint. Their goal for the game is for us to not play it nearly so much. One thing they can do to facilitate that is to cater to min/maxers in an effort to strain the social contract and break up gaming clubs. It's been their strategy all the way through 7th edition.

You can see that GW is perfectly comfortable with making something less fun to drive away players. They didn't want people to play Orks, or Nids in certain ways so they wrote their codexes with rules that were designed to make them less fun to play (Mob Rule, Instinctive Behavior). I think they were generally successful. Anyone can see on a single read how those rules would make the game less fun for the units affected by them. That isn't incompetence. That was by design.

The new split rule is another example. It is no fun to play against. GW knows that. Anything they can do to put strain on the social contract and break up gaming clubs into garage-hammer players, or hobbiest that don't play. Those are the customers they want, not gamers. At least not in 7th ed. Many signs point positive for 8th edition.

lol Citation needed.

Or, if you'd rather:

"Don't attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence."

tag8833 wrote:

Versatilebeats wrote:
Monkeys are elite so you can take the inquisitorial representative and have 1-3 elites your elite choices are acolytes, demonhosts, or monkeys

But they don't have a rule like the rule for Ork Mek's that allow them to join a unit?

So they lost their ability to buff units unless you take the formation, right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Zero part of this list looks "fun" to play against, which I would argue is an exact COUNTER to what GW wants. You don't get to decide how "fun" is defined, so things need to be reeled back a bit.

GW doesn't want us to have fun. They want us to call each other names, and then go home and paint. Their goal for the game is for us to not play it nearly so much. One thing they can do to facilitate that is to cater to min/maxers in an effort to strain the social contract and break up gaming clubs. It's been their strategy all the way through 7th edition.

You can see that GW is perfectly comfortable with making something less fun to drive away players. They didn't want people to play Orks, or Nids in certain ways so they wrote their codexes with rules that were designed to make them less fun to play (Mob Rule, Instinctive Behavior). I think they were generally successful. Anyone can see on a single read how those rules would make the game less fun for the units affected by them. That isn't incompetence. That was by design.

The new split rule is another example. It is no fun to play against. GW knows that. Anything they can do to put strain on the social contract and break up gaming clubs into garage-hammer players, or hobbiest that don't play. Those are the customers they want, not gamers. At least not in 7th ed. Many signs point positive for 8th edition.

Speechless.

I've got my tinfoil hat on.

GWs after mah fun!

Yep. No words.

 pretre wrote:
lol Citation needed.

Here is Jervis Johnson (head 40K rules writer) describing Equal Point games with pre-set objectives, and a clear winner as the worst way to play 40K
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-KIXkV6e53-E/VbrWfefLf2I/AAAAAAAAO-k/ScDUPgq_RU4/s1600/IMG_1634.JPG
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Ml3h28RMac8/VbrWryfEcfI/AAAAAAAAO-s/aV15qRATWJc/s1600/IMG_1635.JPG

He singles out pickup games against unknown opponent, and comes out strongly in favor of garage hammer games where you limit your opponents to 1 or 2 players.

Here is Jervis introducing "Unbound" and "Demon Summoning":: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0-GErXKpks

Here is an article on Sigmar, and the design philosophy behind it: http://www.vampirecounts.net/threads/old-jervis-johnson-article-and-age-of-sigmar-design-philosophy.29448/

Every time they do an interview that discusses balance or points costing, they actively disparage the concept.

 pretre wrote:
"Don't attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence."

My gaming group and I have been debating the 3 possibilities of GW.
Evil GW
Incompetent GW
and Disinterested GW (They just want to sell models, and don't care about the game)

I have long been in the Incompetent GW. If you don't play 40K, you could write the Ork, or Dark Eldar codex, and make those mistakes. The Eldar Codex screams incompetence. The newest Tau codex was interesting because it had both incompetence (poorly thought out and worded rules) and Disinterest or Evil (Riptide Wing, Ghostkiels).

When GW called in the TO's to re-engage competitive 40K, they made the case to them that they were disinterested in the game. They've been leaning on a few high end TO's to help them with FAQ's recently, but I didn't really buy it. Some of the decisions are so bad, and result in models that don't sell (ever seen a maleceptor on the table?), so I stuck with incompetent theory.

But with the new split rule, The Rules for Magnus, and now the Agents of the Imperium codex, I've been swayed to the Evil GW side. Nobody is that incompetent. Even someone who doesn't play 40K can understand the playability problems with the split rule. Plus wouldn't it be cool to help tell your end times narrative by introducing a bunch of OP models on the side of Chaos so that everyone started losing to chaos. It's basically what they did with the Fantasy End times. Nagash was basically nuts, and didn't work in the framework of the fantasy rule-set.

The PR disaster that was the launch of Agents of the Imperium and the removal of Celestine, and Servo Skulls flow very nicely into that narrative. You make players lament the loss of a favored model, and then when they return in a new form, more powerful than before as the answer to the current problems. It just seems like it would make as much sense to someone like Jervis. Using rules, and imbalance to tell a story.

I'm newly come to the Evil GW side, but I think I'm convinced. Perfectly rational people could go with Incompetent or disinterested, and it is clearly somewhat a combination of all 3. After all the aeronautica faction is a thing, and nothing but incompetence can explain that one.

That's a lot different than 'they don't want us to have fun'. That's in fact the exact opposite. They want us to have fun and not take things so seriously.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aaaanyways...

tag8833 wrote:
The PR disaster that was the launch of Agents of the Imperium and the removal of Celestine....

She wasn't removed. She just wasn't included.

AotI is a gathering of basic units from various imperial factions. It IS NOT A NEW SISTERS CODEX!

The Adepta Sororitas book is still legal. Including Saint Celestine.

Again with the citation needed. It is unclear either way right now.

 DeffDred wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
The PR disaster that was the launch of Agents of the Imperium and the removal of Celestine....

She wasn't removed. She just wasn't included.

AotI is a gathering of basic units from various imperial factions. It IS NOT A NEW SISTERS CODEX!

The Adepta Sororitas book is still legal. Including Saint Celestine.

so are tomb kings and bretonies.

OgreChubbs wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
The PR disaster that was the launch of Agents of the Imperium and the removal of Celestine....

She wasn't removed. She just wasn't included.

AotI is a gathering of basic units from various imperial factions. It IS NOT A NEW SISTERS CODEX!

The Adepta Sororitas book is still legal. Including Saint Celestine.

so are tomb kings and bretonies.

No, those are two factions from a discontinued game. They still have rules available in a new game system.

Sisters are an existing faction with a current rules set. This new book simply reprints their rules for use by allied factions.

Notice there aren't any Grey Knight characters? Oh noes! I guess Grey Knights are being squated!!!!

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Um, that army list is illegal. The zombies are limited to a single unit.

So his list was too resilient for what the game allows with far more board control than what is in a single list and still only got second place.

You can't make the statement of whether or not someone "gets it" when the tournament in question doesn't know what the rulez for the game are...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: nevermind. Misread something

It isn't. The Rengades of Vracks book from forgeworld changed the wording on covenant of nurgle. It's a small thing, but the taking of the covenant leads to any number of zombie units. Please don't stir the kool-aid if you don't know the flavor.

Considering that this book has 100% of inquisitors and 100% of sisters as intended, I would say otherwise.
DW and GK aren't fully loaded in because each Ordo calls on a select group. Malleus = gk, Xeno = DW, heri = sisters.

All of sisters were revised so they could have an actual book. Inquisitors already had a ebook and got revised to have their own fill in book.


I posted the SS early of the wh40k FB profile stating that this book was to revise, update and therefore consolidate all the misfits in one book. If the snooks remain available they will probably be updated to reflect the changes, if they don't it's probably because they backed down from their original intent because of crying adult babies.
Just move on from it, no one is a special flower.
Cele will probably make a return in a new red of their own as a LoW and you can all calm the f down.
I don't know of any groups that even allow the use of special characters anyways, so boner jam all you want or be a sad crying adult baby.

Pariah-Miniatures wrote:
Considering that this book has 100% of inquisitors and 100% of sisters as intended, I would say otherwise.
DW and GK aren't fully loaded in because each Ordo calls on a select group. Malleus = gk, Xeno = DW, heri = sisters.

All of sisters were revised so they could have an actual book. Inquisitors already had a ebook and got revised to have their own fill in book.


I posted the SS early of the wh40k FB profile stating that this book was to revise, update and therefore consolidate all the misfits in one book. If the snooks remain available they will probably be updated to reflect the changes, if they don't it's probably because they backed down from their original intent because of crying adult babies.
Just move on from it, no one is a special flower.
Cele will probably make a return in a new red of their own as a LoW and you can all calm the f down.
I don't know of any groups that even allow the use of special characters anyways, so boner jam all you want or be a sad crying adult baby.

Isn't this exactly the kind of inflammatory stuff people were warned against earlier?

Pariah-Miniatures wrote:
...I don't know of any groups that even allow the use of special characters anyways...

That would be all groups. 3rd Ed was the last time anyone needed to ask permission.

Not using special characters is stupid. It'd be the same as not allowing troop choices. Anyone that refuses to play with legal rules is an "adult baby".

It's a fairly large perception that isn't just my own. People can bc upset about what is said but it doesn't make it any less true just because they don't like how they have projected themselves to be.

The perception of special characters may be an old one, but the idea is that they are 'cheap'. Don't rely on special gimmicks and make your own HQs. That's how it's always been perceived in my area.

But hey agents codex seemed bunk but is actually turning out to be quite nice, I'll take free warlord trait and TDA with daemon weapon in trade of servo skulls

Pariah-Miniatures wrote:
It's a fairly large perception that isn't just my own. People can bc upset about what is said but it doesn't make it any less true just because they don't like how they have projected themselves to be.

The perception of special characters may be an old one, but the idea is that they are 'cheap'. Don't rely on special gimmicks and make your own HQs. That's how it's always been perceived in my area.

But hey agents codex seemed bunk but is actually turning out to be quite nice, I'll take free warlord trait and TDA with daemon weapon in trade of servo skulls

Chaplain T, pitier of the fools, tosser of the suckas! was my home made character (google him). After 3rd Ed changed chaplains to useless piles of gak I had no interest in using the standard chaplain.

Now T is a chapter master on bike because my HQ is going to have 3 wounds minimum.

Pariah-Miniatures wrote:
The perception of special characters may be an old one, but the idea is that they are 'cheap'. Don't rely on special gimmicks and make your own HQs. That's how it's always been perceived in my area.

I take it you ban Wraithkights, Eldar bikes and the like then as they are cheap and OP, relying on Special gimmicks?

 Thunderfrog wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Um, that army list is illegal. The zombies are limited to a single unit.

So his list was too resilient for what the game allows with far more board control than what is in a single list and still only got second place.

You can't make the statement of whether or not someone "gets it" when the tournament in question doesn't know what the rulez for the game are...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: nevermind. Misread something

It isn't. The Rengades of Vracks book from forgeworld changed the wording on covenant of nurgle. It's a small thing, but the taking of the covenant leads to any number of zombie units. Please don't stir the kool-aid if you don't know the flavor.

Except I play against that army at least once a month. If you are using the siege of vracks, your army is outdated. Imperial armour renegades and heretics upgraded those rules and it stipulates that the army may include A UNIT of zombies as a troop choice if you have the covenant of Nurgle. If your tourney allowed outdated rules, that doesn't point to the game being broken in any way.

Also, they still only placed second.

Pariah-Miniatures wrote:
It's a fairly large perception that isn't just my own.

Source please.

Judging by the "is this cheating" thread in the other area of the forum, I'd say the players do a good job of making things not fun by themselves, they don't require a GW lead on it.

Well I went down to gw today to get the Canoness model.
And they had exactly zero....

What the feth is going on with this model?

 dan2026 wrote:
Well I went down to gw today to get the Canoness model.
And they had exactly zero....

What the feth is going on with this model?

Still waiting for the email to say its in stock so there are probably none to be had. It appears that GW assumed they would sell a few hundred and be done with it but were wrong.

 DeffDred wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
The PR disaster that was the launch of Agents of the Imperium and the removal of Celestine....

She wasn't removed. She just wasn't included.

AotI is a gathering of basic units from various imperial factions. It IS NOT A NEW SISTERS CODEX!

The Adepta Sororitas book is still legal. Including Saint Celestine.

so are tomb kings and bretonies.

No, those are two factions from a discontinued game. They still have rules available in a new game system.

Sisters are an existing faction with a current rules set. This new book simply reprints their rules for use by allied factions.

Notice there aren't any Grey Knight characters? Oh noes! I guess Grey Knights are being squated!!!!

Except that's not exactly true. The first bit of information was that the IA dex supersedes the AS one, then they said both were valid, and AS was being updated.

Either way it's a rather poor update for sisters. The fact Celestine is gone from the store obviously means she's not meant to be used anymore. Regardless if she has rules in AS.

The fact sisters have been one minute to midnight for several years now isn't doomsaying, this is probably the last dex for 7th, and shows sisters are an afterthought at best, as the only printed dex removes their iconic hero. Even the web team considers the army a joke.

S.Y.