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I have to say, I find the excuse that 8th lacks the depth for Legions to work to be complete and total BS. It's mainly the Legion special rules and Rites of War that separate the Legions and all of them should be pretty easy to convert across, so this either points to incompetence, laziness or (most likely) a lack of staff/time but dressing it up in spite.

 Sidstyler wrote:
I know some people will always bemoan the lack of choice, but honestly I'd prefer if there were only 3 options that were all generally useful or good, instead of having two or even three times as many options, but still only being left with a couple that are actually worth using. I don't see the point in being given a "choice" that I'll never willingly want to use. That's not really a "choice" in my opinion.

And I'm sure it's been said before, but if the whole purpose of having multiple powers and having so many that are either extremely situational or just plain bad was to "balance" the good ones, because the powers were always randomly selected, then that's just terrible game design. I don't mind one bit that every "lore" only has three spells if it turns out those spells are all equally good. As for being able to get them reliably, you should be able to get what you want in the first place. It shouldn't be random and none of the powers should be so powerful that being able to pick the one you want breaks the game.

I'm not sure why this discussion started in the FW thread and not the 8th edition thread, but whatever. Anyway, speaking of FW, I love the new tigershark and I wanna know when that's going to come out. I'm glad I didn't buy the new barracuda yet, so I can get a pair of them and a tigershark all at once.

Obviously everyone would prefer many options that are all equally worth taking, but I'll take half a dozen options where only three are "good" over three options which are all "good" any day, because my priority is not always making the most efficient list I can. Even if some of the options are total garbage from the perspective of trying to win games in a competitive setting, I'd rather have the option to choose them than not, because not everyone plays in a competitive setting all the time, sometimes the goal is to find the rules that best represent a character that's been created on the table; and while anyone can make up any rule they want for casual play, having stuff already there in the "official" material just makes things easier.

Basically, as long as the "good" choices are there, why would you ever want less options? And even if you don't want them, why would you prefer a system that takes them away from people who do when their existence has no impact on you at all?

 Imateria wrote:
I have to say, I find the excuse that 8th lacks the depth for Legions to work to be complete and total BS. It's mainly the Legion special rules and Rites of War that separate the Legions and all of them should be pretty easy to convert across, so this either points to incompetence, laziness or (most likely) a lack of staff/time but dressing it up in spite.

Hilarious.

Given how many legion rules revolve around Morale or Sweeping Advances, and Morale being simplified as much as it has been in 8th...

No, it wouldn't be an easy switch. Not in the slightest.

From a Drew Ink&Painting Studio on Facebook, a size comparison for Magnus:
(Spoilers for large pic)

He's a big guy, that's for sure! A friend of mine was at Warhammer Fest, and is coming back today. He got me both Magnus and Amon, can't wait!

Wow, so much bigger than Horus (his pose is not helping) ... if its correct fluff wise I am alright with it but it looks a little ridiculous.

Still, I am looking forward to painting Magnus as the TS slowly become my favorite HH Legion because of their color scheme as well as models which FW has put out so far.

I'm digging Horus' head there!

 Fireball wrote:
Wow, so much bigger than Horus (his pose is not helping) ... if its correct fluff wise I am alright with it but it looks a little ridiculous.

Still, I am looking forward to painting Magnus as the TS slowly become my favorite HH Legion because of their color scheme as well as models which FW has put out so far.

It is correct fluffwise - Magnus is said to be the largest/tallest of all the Primarchs (and can use his psychic might to alter his height if needed, though that may only be after he ascends to Daemonhhod.)

 Fireball wrote:
Wow, so much bigger than Horus (his pose is not helping) ... if its correct fluff wise I am alright with it but it looks a little ridiculous.

Still, I am looking forward to painting Magnus as the TS slowly become my favorite HH Legion because of their color scheme as well as models which FW has put out so far.

Since Magnus is a newer model they have surely refined the sculpting and scale a bit, but yes, Magnus towered over his already freakishly tall brethren quite a bit. He also shifted shape and size a lot, due to the whole BIOTIC (psychic) GOD thing.

And I couldn't agree more with what you're saying about the Thousand Sons legion. I am in the process of painting mine just like FW, with candy red over golden metallics (using an airbrush). It gives a fantastic result, and I can't wait to paint the big red guy himself

 alleus wrote:
And I couldn't agree more with what you're saying about the Thousand Sons legion. I am in the process of painting mine just like FW, with candy red over golden metallics (using an airbrush). It gives a fantastic result, and I can't wait to paint the big red guy himself

I do not do any airbrushing ... I was not happy with the metallic results I achieved so I went with the "plain" red. I still like it very much. I still need to paint Geigor and Leman Russ ... but after that I will focus on Magnus, Sekhmet Terminators and some conversion which shall represent the Rehati ...

I don't think we are picking up how much Alan's death will impact on the HH. Alan was pretty much the creative brain behind the whole game.
I think we need to give the company some time to sort some things out.
Those big black books we have will be his legacy. It will be interesting to see were the heresy goes going forward but it's lost it master and it's going to struggle a little i imagine.

 Knockagh wrote:
I don't think we are picking up how much Alan's death will impact on the HH. Alan was pretty much the creative brain behind the whole game.
I think we need to give the company some time to sort some things out.
Those big black books we have will be his legacy. It will be interesting to see were the heresy goes going forward but it's lost it master and it's going to struggle a little i imagine.

Yeah, my feelings on this are complicated. On one hand, I think the decision to develop their own rules based on 7th -- which will be virtually identical to current 7th, let's be honest about that -- puts them firmly on the wrong path with HH. They're a small shop that already struggles mightily with completing jobs on time and with supporting their released products. And now they're going to own the ruleset also? Um.

On the other hand, AB's passing is an absolutely huge blow for them. They lost their creative genius and product champion all in one blow. The future of HH is far murkier now than some seem to want to believe, IMO. They're facing long-term issues, but also important short-term ones, and in that context I guess I understand their need to keep the status quo for a while until more can be sorted out.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Given how many legion rules revolve around Morale or Sweeping Advances, and Morale being simplified as much as it has been in 8th...

No, it wouldn't be an easy switch. Not in the slightest.

I don't think it's easy as in something you can do overnight. But I don't think it's nearly the task people make it out to be. The key is to stop thinking like it's 7th edition and use the tools that 8th edition presents.

For instance, I see people concerned about EC, since advantages like Flawless Execution are initiative based. So what about giving them a EC-specific stratagem that's the equivalent of Counter-Offensive but costs only 1 CP? That's off the top of my head and just one imperfect example, but I don't think it'd be that difficult to develop rules that aren't exact translations, but still keep the right spirit and flavor.

Although again, I think they have bigger fish to fry at the FW studio than just figuring out how to translate things into 8th.

 gorgon wrote:

 Knockagh wrote:
I don't think we are picking up how much Alan's death will impact on the HH. Alan was pretty much the creative brain behind the whole game.
I think we need to give the company some time to sort some things out.
Those big black books we have will be his legacy. It will be interesting to see were the heresy goes going forward but it's lost it master and it's going to struggle a little i imagine.

Yeah, my feelings on this are complicated. On one hand, I think the decision to develop their own rules based on 7th -- which will be virtually identical to current 7th, let's be honest about that -- puts them firmly on the wrong path with HH. They're a small shop that already struggles mightily with completing jobs on time and with supporting their released products. And now they're going to own the ruleset also? Um.

On the other hand, AB's passing is an absolutely huge blow for them. They lost their creative genius and product champion all in one blow. The future of HH is far murkier now than some seem to want to believe, IMO. They're facing long-term issues, but also important short-term ones, and in that context I guess I understand their need to keep the status quo for a while until more can be sorted out.

The over arching plot points of the remaining FW and BL books should have been ironed out back in December: http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_First_Expedition/ar/t1999.htm when Laurie was leaving. I am sure it is just the detail from the books that is left now, FW is so much larger than it was at the beginning of the HH series there must be people who can pick that up as it shouldn't be as difficult as devising the entire direction of a many year much loved series... My guess would be Andy Hoare moves back from running the Specialist Games team to get HH over the line.

Finishing the series in 7th (or 7.5) would be an important move. It means that every army would have rules in the edition the HH started in, so people can make the choice to stay in 7th or move forward to 8th when the time comes. Plus FW gets to double dip when they do move to 8th.

 Looky Likey wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Knockagh wrote:
I don't think we are picking up how much Alan's death will impact on the HH. Alan was pretty much the creative brain behind the whole game.
I think we need to give the company some time to sort some things out.
Those big black books we have will be his legacy. It will be interesting to see were the heresy goes going forward but it's lost it master and it's going to struggle a little i imagine.

Yeah, my feelings on this are complicated. On one hand, I think the decision to develop their own rules based on 7th -- which will be virtually identical to current 7th, let's be honest about that -- puts them firmly on the wrong path with HH. They're a small shop that already struggles mightily with completing jobs on time and with supporting their released products. And now they're going to own the ruleset also? Um.

On the other hand, AB's passing is an absolutely huge blow for them. They lost their creative genius and product champion all in one blow. The future of HH is far murkier now than some seem to want to believe, IMO. They're facing long-term issues, but also important short-term ones, and in that context I guess I understand their need to keep the status quo for a while until more can be sorted out.

The over arching plot points of the remaining FW and BL books should have been ironed out back in December: http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_First_Expedition/ar/t1999.htm when Laurie was leaving. I am sure it is just the detail from the books that is left now, FW is so much larger than it was at the beginning of the HH series there must be people who can pick that up as it shouldn't be as difficult as devising the entire direction of a many year much loved series... My guess would be Andy Hoare moves back from running the Specialist Games team to get HH over the line.

Alan did a lot more than just fill in details.

 gorgon wrote:
Alan did a lot more than just fill in details.

Yes, and as I said, that would have all been documented back in December, when Laurie was leaving, as Laurie also had a big input to both BL and FW HH books.

I'm pretty disappointed with the decision to stick with 7e. Primarily because I dislike remembering two separate rulesets for the same army (since I use the White Scars in 40k as well), but also because it ensures that the steady stream of players moving from 40k to 30k will slow dramatically. No longer will people be able to quickly and easily jump across after learning one new codex.

I think that it will be very interesting to see how things go from here. I know that Alan Bligh was very important to them, but they have more than broken the back of the Heresy at this stage, and and we are probably looking at no more than three more books; it's likely that they prepared a detailed roadmap to go forward with. On the other hand, we might see them flounder to recover from this loss. It's not like FW released new books very quickly regardless though, so we'll have to wait and see for a while; the first test will be how long it takes them to publish their new rulebook.

Losing the main guy behind a project always hurts even if all the solid ground work has already been done. FW mentioned the inferno had been delayed heavily by the change in the psychic system. And that was just about the only change between 6th-7th.
It would be a lot of work.

Also I remember quite a few threads hoping they would stick to 7th with HH. so all those shiny (expensive) black books wouldn't be invalidated.

one thing up front, I was really saddened by the totally unexpected death of AB, way too early, really sad.
Whenever someone so young dies it clearly shows your own mortality... :(

 Charles Rampant wrote:
I'm pretty disappointed with the decision to stick with 7e. Primarily because I dislike remembering two separate rulesets for the same army (since I use the White Scars in 40k as well), but also because it ensures that the steady stream of players moving from 40k to 30k will slow dramatically. No longer will people be able to quickly and easily jump across after learning one new codex.

I can only agree, to stick with 7th is IMO a HUGE mistake.

I have all 7 books and I will keep them, simply because they are just very good background books.
But everything after 40K 4th edition was way above me, I like all the changes GW announced so far for 40K, so to stick with 7th was a big blow.

I will do some games with 40K 8th and after that will use my 30K minis as stand ins, or write my own conversion.

This could be actually a pretty cool community project!

Earth127 wrote:

Losing the main guy behind a project always hurts even if all the solid ground work has already been done. FW mentioned the inferno had been delayed heavily by the change in the psychic system. And that was just about the only change between 6th-7th.
It would be a lot of work.

Also I remember quite a few threads hoping they would stick to 7th with HH. so all those shiny (expensive) black books wouldn't be invalidated.

Reprinting the big black books with new rules would annoy me, reprinting the "codex" sized red books would not. I can't remember the last time I needed to take the big books for a game, just the red books.

 AAN wrote:
I will do some games with 40K 8th and after that will use my 30K minis as stand ins, or write my own conversion.

This could be actually a pretty cool community project!

I believe the folks at the Heresy 30k forum are laying some groundwork for that.

Definitely a curious choice. On one hand (as mentioned numerous times) it won't invalidates $500-1000 worth of books a lot of you folks have...

On the other hand, GW is doing what a lot of companies do and openly criticizing 7th in a lot of the new 8th edition preview materials. That makes it a little bit awkward on appearance. "Man, we're so happy 8th is going to rock, you don't have to worry about any of these silly issues from 7th!....unless...you're still playing 7th because we're keeping HH there".

The more successful 8th is, the more odd it will be for HH. I mean, objectively - if you own both armies and play both games, and find that 8th is 200% more fun for you - how much will that diminish your interest in HH?

Very curious to see how this rolls out and if they change position later.

 Elbows wrote:
Definitely a curious choice. On one hand (as mentioned numerous times) it won't invalidates $500-1000 worth of books a lot of you folks have...

On the other hand, GW is doing what a lot of companies do and openly criticizing 7th in a lot of the new 8th edition preview materials. That makes it a little bit awkward on appearance. "Man, we're so happy 8th is going to rock, you don't have to worry about any of these silly issues from 7th!....unless...you're still playing 7th because we're keeping HH there".

The more successful 8th is, the more odd it will be for HH. I mean, objectively - if you own both armies and play both games, and find that 8th is 200% more fun for you - how much will that diminish your interest in HH?

Very curious to see how this rolls out and if they change position later.

They are criticizing 7th for 40k. It is pretty well-known that 30k was considered generally fine under 7th and many folks were hoping that this would be what came to pass.

I am fine either way, honestly. It is just now a Specialist Game and not a ruleset under the standard game format. Not too big a deal, really. And when/if they go to 8th, I hope it is a nice rollout and not haphazard.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Definitely a curious choice. On one hand (as mentioned numerous times) it won't invalidates $500-1000 worth of books a lot of you folks have...

On the other hand, GW is doing what a lot of companies do and openly criticizing 7th in a lot of the new 8th edition preview materials. That makes it a little bit awkward on appearance. "Man, we're so happy 8th is going to rock, you don't have to worry about any of these silly issues from 7th!....unless...you're still playing 7th because we're keeping HH there".

The more successful 8th is, the more odd it will be for HH. I mean, objectively - if you own both armies and play both games, and find that 8th is 200% more fun for you - how much will that diminish your interest in HH?

Very curious to see how this rolls out and if they change position later.

They are criticizing 7th for 40k. It is pretty well-known that 30k was considered generally fine under 7th and many folks were hoping that this would be what came to pass.

I am fine either way, honestly. It is just now a Specialist Game and not a ruleset under the standard game format. Not too big a deal, really. And when/if they go to 8th, I hope it is a nice rollout and not haphazard.

It seems fine enough when its marine vs marines. i dont think 30k will be any different in 8th since its ultimately a mirror match still (for the most part)

Why do people always forget about the Solar Auxilia and Mechanicum?

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Definitely a curious choice. On one hand (as mentioned numerous times) it won't invalidates $500-1000 worth of books a lot of you folks have...

On the other hand, GW is doing what a lot of companies do and openly criticizing 7th in a lot of the new 8th edition preview materials. That makes it a little bit awkward on appearance. "Man, we're so happy 8th is going to rock, you don't have to worry about any of these silly issues from 7th!....unless...you're still playing 7th because we're keeping HH there".

The more successful 8th is, the more odd it will be for HH. I mean, objectively - if you own both armies and play both games, and find that 8th is 200% more fun for you - how much will that diminish your interest in HH?

Very curious to see how this rolls out and if they change position later.

They are criticizing 7th for 40k. It is pretty well-known that 30k was considered generally fine under 7th and many folks were hoping that this would be what came to pass.

I am fine either way, honestly. It is just now a Specialist Game and not a ruleset under the standard game format. Not too big a deal, really. And when/if they go to 8th, I hope it is a nice rollout and not haphazard.

And many folks were hoping it'd change too, because 7th still has plenty of issues. Some issues aren't as apparent in 30K just because of how FW set up the army lists and army selection. But there's still plenty of clunkiness and imbalance baked into the ruleset that 8th edition directly addresses.

If I had to bet, I'd bet on the "new" rulebook being released at the FW Open Day. Although that's a fairly tight timeline for them and they tend to miss those. Given that they seemed almost overwhelmed with getting one black book out per year even with AB steering the ship, I worry about how they'll keep up going forward.

 BrookM wrote:
Why do people always forget about the Solar Auxilia and Mechanicum?

And the Knights. And the militia. Not forgetting those poor sods who play 30k dæmons.

Go to a 30k tournament, its almost ALWAYS Marines with just a few of those armies.

Betrayal at Calth and Burning of Prospero has pushed even more full marine armies for 30k.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Go to a 30k tournament, its almost ALWAYS Marines with just a few of those armies.

Last one I went to on the weekend out of about 56 players, I saw 3 Knight armies (including mine), 5 custodies armies, a cult army with an Ordinatus. I didn't see a Mechanicum army this time though, which was lucky as they are the kryptonite for my Knights. There were a few Marine armies with Demon allies and a couple of tank only Marine armies as well. So about 70% of the armies taken were Marine based. I got lucky and played a Marine tank company, the Ordinatus list, a Custodies list, with standard marine lists for my remaining 2 games. I have yet to see Solar Aux. in the wild and that makes me sad.

Elbows wrote:Definitely a curious choice. On one hand (as mentioned numerous times) it won't invalidates $500-1000 worth of books a lot of you folks have...

The black books only become invalidated if they update the fluff in them and/or replace the rules only in the black books. That is highly unlikely. Replacing the red books and/or issuing the new index books is expected. We have already had replacements for the Legion red book and the Mechanicum lists have also been updated since the original as their red book supersedes the early lists for most people. I can't remember the last time I needed to look in the first four black books for rules. Replacing one £32 book or purchasing a £15 index isn't that expensive.

 Looky Likey wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Go to a 30k tournament, its almost ALWAYS Marines with just a few of those armies.

Last one I went to on the weekend out of about 56 players, I saw 3 Knight armies (including mine), 5 custodies armies, a cult army with an Ordinatus. .

Yeah, custodes were already showing up by the handfuls at the March AdeptiCon HH events. Painted, even!!!

At least at AdeptiCon HH events, I've been seeing more and more Mechanicum lists with their...weird weaponry. "What's that? What's it do? K. What's that? What's it do? k."

The black books only become invalidated if they update the fluff in them and/or replace the rules only in the black books. That is highly unlikely. Replacing the red books and/or issuing the new index books is expected. We have already had replacements for the Legion red book and the Mechanicum lists have also been updated since the original as their red book supersedes the early lists for most people. I can't remember the last time I needed to look in the first four black books for rules. Replacing one £32 book or purchasing a £15 index isn't that expensive.

Agreed 100%. A number of the Black Books have already had units invalidated by the red books, anyway. The Anvilus Dreadclaw costs 115 points now (was 100 points) AND now has the standard drop pod's Inertial Guidance System. Apothecaries can join almost any unit now, instead of the list in the first black book. Legion Tactical Support squads have had a point adjustment, as have the bikes and a few other units.

If you make a list from the black books and come to a tournament, there is a significant chance your list isn't legal with the amount of point changes that have been made. Ergo, your black books, from a list building stance are ALREADY outdated.

The fluff and pictures are still good.