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Yeah, give it just a little time, and you'll see more and more Custodes armies.

 kronk wrote:

 Looky Likey wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Go to a 30k tournament, its almost ALWAYS Marines with just a few of those armies.

Last one I went to on the weekend out of about 56 players, I saw 3 Knight armies (including mine), 5 custodies armies, a cult army with an Ordinatus. .

Yeah, custodes were already showing up by the handfuls at the March AdeptiCon HH events. Painted, even!!!

At least at AdeptiCon HH events, I've been seeing more and more Mechanicum lists with their...weird weaponry. "What's that? What's it do? K. What's that? What's it do? k."

The black books only become invalidated if they update the fluff in them and/or replace the rules only in the black books. That is highly unlikely. Replacing the red books and/or issuing the new index books is expected. We have already had replacements for the Legion red book and the Mechanicum lists have also been updated since the original as their red book supersedes the early lists for most people. I can't remember the last time I needed to look in the first four black books for rules. Replacing one £32 book or purchasing a £15 index isn't that expensive.

Agreed 100%. A number of the Black Books have already had units invalidated by the red books, anyway. The Anvilus Dreadclaw costs 115 points now (was 100 points) AND now has the standard drop pod's Inertial Guidance System. Apothecaries can join almost any unit now, instead of the list in the first black book. Legion Tactical Support squads have had a point adjustment, as have the bikes and a few other units.

If you make a list from the black books and come to a tournament, there is a significant chance your list isn't legal with the amount of point changes that have been made. Ergo, your black books, from a list building stance are ALREADY outdated.

The fluff and pictures are still good.

I can make a list from my black books that's perfectly legal just fine, because I took a page worth of notes from someone's red book. You're making it sound like the level of disparity between the black book rules and updated red book rules is equivalent to the disparity between two entirely different versions of the Heresy written for different editions of the core rules, in a scenario where "different editions" is more like 2nd to 3rd than 6th to 7th. In fact, the black/red disparity is more like an FAQ update.

The red books are useful, but they're not required outside of a handful of edge cases; plenty of folk don't own them and have no intention of owning them until the most comprehensive versions are released circa-/post-Terra, so switching to 8th actually would be an additional expense.

Look I get that plenty of folk on Dakka don't have to care about this kind of thing, but some folk actually do have to budget their hobby purchases quite carefully and every needless rulebook replacement is one less purchase of models for their army.

 Yodhrin wrote:
In fact, the black/red disparity is more like an FAQ update.

Sadly, for right or wrong, these "stealth updates" were not covered in an FAQ. If you don't know about them, then you aren't playing by the most recent rules. I say you're underplaying the extent of the changes that FW made to the Hersey armies.

 Yodhrin wrote:

Look I get that plenty of folk on Dakka don't have to care about this kind of thing, but some folk actually do have to budget their hobby purchases quite carefully and every needless rulebook replacement is one less purchase of models for their army.

Coming out with 8th edition rules does not invalidate Black Books 1-7. The fluff and scenarios are still there. I will repeat and stick to my statement that the rules for the black books were invalidated with the first red book "stealth update". Period.

Needless replacement? I say needed and overdue. I HATE 7th edition and would like for FW to hurry up and port all of the Legions into an 8th edition format as soon as the finish the last couple in a 7th edition format.

Furthermore, I also budget my hobby purchases. One part of my budget is having the right rules for my current army. It sucks, but it's part of the expense.

 gorgon wrote:
Yeah, give it just a little time, and you'll see more and more Custodes armies.

*Hides Free Talons of the Emporer is Got under the table*

 Charles Rampant wrote:
I'm pretty disappointed with the decision to stick with 7e. Primarily because I dislike remembering two separate rulesets for the same army (since I use the White Scars in 40k as well)

I would not worry 8th is based on AoS so a lobotomised chimp could play it.

Seriously I give it 4 games of 8th as it stands before you even start missing formations, a functioning morale system or anything to add some depth.

8th is a game designed to get AoS players to buy Restartes to go with there sigmarines, it also seems to have been aimed at TO's to minimise rules queries and speed up games so they can fit more paying players in.

I think that we'll see loads of Custodes armies for the same reason that I saw loads of Grey Knights back when I restarted the hobby in 5e; a new, elite, highly fluff important, army. That appeals to a LOT of people, especially those who like to paint a small army and still play full sized games. Meanwhile, nobody remembers the Solar Auxilia because they cost so much that I've never seen anyone mention collecting them, nor does anyone in my entire country seem to play them, judging from our Facebook chat.

I don't own the black books, so that concern is not one that I possess. But I have to admit that the concern that 8e won't reflect marine on marine combat well is an odd one; that's something like 50% of games, considering how popular Space Marines of various loyalist and heretical kinds are in 40k. I mean, 40k is the Space Marine game, if we got right down to it.

Elbows said above that if 40k 8th edition is really popular, it'd be weird and unfun to switch between it and a version of 7e, especially if you enjoy 8e more. We should be fair and observe that street goes both ways - some are happy since they don't like what they see of 8th. But for me, I'm loving everything that I'm seeing, and I'm really not looking forward to fighting against MCs with vehicles, and sitting through the psychic phase, just because FW decided not to update their rules. In a possible future, I end up preferring 8e so much that I'll want to step back from running 30k events in order to not have to deal with 7e again. As a mainly Orks player, I have vanishingly little love for 6th and 7th editions.

We'll see.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
Yeah, give it just a little time, and you'll see more and more Custodes armies.

*Hides Free Talons of the Emporer is Got under the table*

Er...what?

 Alpharius wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
Yeah, give it just a little time, and you'll see more and more Custodes armies.

*Hides Free Talons of the Emporer is Got under the table*

Er...what?

The GW talons of the emporor, my friend got one sent to him by accident instead of what he wanted.
He gave it to me
Its a joke about the fact that we are seeing more & more custodes

SeanDrake wrote:

 Charles Rampant wrote:
I'm pretty disappointed with the decision to stick with 7e. Primarily because I dislike remembering two separate rulesets for the same army (since I use the White Scars in 40k as well)

I would not worry 8th is based on AoS so a lobotomised chimp could play it.

Seriously I give it 4 games of 8th as it stands before you even start missing formations, a functioning morale system or anything to add some depth.

8th is a game designed to get AoS players to buy Restartes to go with there[u] sigmarines, it also seems to have been aimed at TO's to minimise rules queries and speed up games so they can fit more paying players in.

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

 gorgon wrote:
Yeah, give it just a little time, and you'll see more and more Custodes armies.

I'm planning on one. Been out since 6th ed, 8th looks nice enough to come back in. Loving the new stuff so far!

 Charles Rampant wrote:
I think that we'll see loads of Custodes armies for the same reason that I saw loads of Grey Knights back when I restarted the hobby in 5e; a new, elite, highly fluff important, army. That appeals to a LOT of people, especially those who like to paint a small army and still play full sized games.

I think GK are a very apt analogy.

 kronk wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
In fact, the black/red disparity is more like an FAQ update.

Sadly, for right or wrong, these "stealth updates" were not covered in an FAQ. If you don't know about them, then you aren't playing by the most recent rules. I say you're underplaying the extent of the changes that FW made to the Hersey armies.

I was talking about the magnitude of the changes. An FAQ is not equivalent to a new edition of the game with a 2nd-to-3rd level reworking of the core rules, and the changes made in the red books relative to the black books are far closer to the former than the latter.

 Yodhrin wrote:

Look I get that plenty of folk on Dakka don't have to care about this kind of thing, but some folk actually do have to budget their hobby purchases quite carefully and every needless rulebook replacement is one less purchase of models for their army.

Coming out with 8th edition rules does not invalidate Black Books 1-7. The fluff and scenarios are still there. I will repeat and stick to my statement that the rules for the black books were invalidated with the first red book "stealth update". Period.

You're simply wrong. I know you're wrong, because I can sit here with a page of notes and my black books and make perfectly valid army lists. The rules content in them still has value that they would no longer have if FW had chosen to switch to 8th.

Needless replacement? I say needed and overdue. I HATE 7th edition and would like for FW to hurry up and port all of the Legions into an 8th edition format as soon as the finish the last couple in a 7th edition format.

Furthermore, I also budget my hobby purchases. One part of my budget is having the right rules for my current army. It sucks, but it's part of the expense.

But again, you're missing the point - people already have the right rules for their current army with the black books and a page of completely free notes. They did budget for them, they did pay for them. Switching to 8th would require them to budget and pay for them a second time unenecessarily, hence needless.

Your black books were outdated until you copied notes from someone else's book. Your point is still wrong.

Look, I get that your shtick is to be edgy and anti-GW, but you have your head in the sand if you think they would never go to a new edition.

They are delaying it, which is good to complete the
Legions in one rule set, but then they will most likely go to 8th. People can either play in 7th or make the switch, just like the last 6 edition updates.

Honestly the only mechanic they should really bring from 8th is the Rending mechanic. It's a great way to make weapons not useless a lot of the time.

So the black books are outdated already because of the red books, but wouldn't be outdated if they made the switch to 8th because the scenarios and fluff are still there.

Make up your mind!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So the black books are outdated already because of the red books, but wouldn't be outdated if they made the switch to 8th because the scenarios and fluff are still there.

Make up your mind!

Nothing inconsistent there. The rules in your black books won't be outdated by a move to 8th edition because they already are outdated.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So the black books are outdated already because of the red books, but wouldn't be outdated if they made the switch to 8th because the scenarios and fluff are still there.

Make up your mind!

poor form.

The rules for the units in the black books are outdated the second red books came out.

You can still use the black books for fluff and scenarios.

But you knew that. You're just being you.

I'm done with your gak for a while. Welcome to ignore.

 Charles Rampant wrote:
I think that we'll see loads of Custodes armies for the same reason that I saw loads of Grey Knights back when I restarted the hobby in 5e; a new, elite, highly fluff important, army. That appeals to a LOT of people, especially those who like to paint a small army and still play full sized games. Meanwhile, nobody remembers the Solar Auxilia because they cost so much that I've never seen anyone mention collecting them, nor does anyone in my entire country seem to play them, judging from our Facebook chat.

Solar auxilia does indeed suffer from price. It's semi-horde army with elite armies. If you want to stick with GW models(say tournament requires) poor alternatives as well. Even GW "Storm troopers" are more expensive...

 kronk wrote:
poor form.

What? That doesn't even make any sense

You said this:

"Coming out with 8th edition rules does not invalidate Black Books 1-7."

Then you said that the black books were invalidated with the Red books. Yes, you're talking about the scenarios, I get that, I'm not a idiot, but the scenarios presumably are for 7th Ed rules as well so yes, 8th Ed rules would invalidate the black books.

 kronk wrote:
The rules for the units in the black books are outdated the second red books came out.

You can still use the black books for fluff and scenarios.

Not if it's 8th, where the scenarios are written for a different rule set.

 kronk wrote:
But you knew that. You're just being you.

I'm done with your gak for a while. Welcome to ignore.

I think you'll find that's poor form.

Any news on Index Chaos and Imperium?

That's probably enough arguing the semantics of what "outdated" means, lads - thanks.

Ive got a 3000 point Solar Auxillia Army... its just going to take me to the year 40k to paint all of it lol

krazynadechukr wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
Yeah, give it just a little time, and you'll see more and more Custodes armies.

I'm planning on one. Been out since 6th ed, 8th looks nice enough to come back in. Loving the new stuff so far!

I am working on Custodes. Mainly I love the look of their vehicles. Dreads are OK, but it's the grav tanks and the new flier that sell them for me. Bit afraid of the price point, but I am also kind of hoping the custodes flier comes out by say July 4th.

 Vector Strike wrote:
Any news on Index Chaos and Imperium?

Chaos & Space Marine books should be going up for pre-order Saturday at 10, 10:30 (UK) - according to the FW guy I spoke to.

Don't you mean Friday the 9th? FW never does pre-orders on Saturday.

 BrookM wrote:
Don't you mean Friday the 9th? FW never does pre-orders on Saturday.

Nope, Saturday 3rd of June. It was first stated on the Warhammer Community page (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/23/forge-world-and-the-new-warhammer-40000/) and I called them up to double-check.

well, that may be the reason that there seem to be no preorders published today ... I had hopes that they put out Amon so I could make my TS heavy order ...

Damn it, and I waited whole week for Friday's pre-orders, just in case they released anything fancy... just to make an order for that bloody prize draw

where's my Friday Forge World Fix????