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jinnai wrote:

I do like them moving it forward, it's just not written very well at all. Sometimes it just reads like an average fan fic.

I get that feel as well. It is like Character A bumps into Character B and then they fight....then Character A moves along and bumps into Character C and then they fight...but wait Character D just happens to be in the area and rescues Character A etc... The universe feels small when it seems the unique characters of each faction are the only ones that matter and they all are bound to encounter each other while wandering around. Also "stuff" just seems to happen. A artifact sword just happens to lie at the heart of a major Craftworld but has never been mentioned before now, but which suddenly is critical to the plot. The Triumverate of Ynnead also is flawed I think in terms of characterization when you have 2 of the 3 essentially mute or incapable of coherent conversation.

jinnai wrote:


I do like them moving it forward, it's just not written very well at all. Sometimes it just reads like an average fan fic.

True, either fan fic or a rip-off of something else. The rag-tag fleet fleeing Cadia in Gathering Storm I read like a synopsis of the first couple of episodes of nu-Battlestar Galactica.

Well to be fair, when GW uses new characters they get accused of forcing no names characters on us, instead of focusing on the main characters.

And a McGuffin appearing out of no where and being critical to the story is not a new thing. Happens in comics weekly. The problem is GW's stable of writers isn't skilled enough to make it feel seamless. Also the dread many are feeling about the outcome of the story isn't helping.

Iracundus wrote:

jinnai wrote:

I do like them moving it forward, it's just not written very well at all. Sometimes it just reads like an average fan fic.

I get that feel as well. It is like Character A bumps into Character B and then they fight....then Character A moves along and bumps into Character C and then they fight...but wait Character D just happens to be in the area and rescues Character A etc... The universe feels small when it seems the unique characters of each faction are the only ones that matter and they all are bound to encounter each other while wandering around. Also "stuff" just seems to happen. A artifact sword just happens to lie at the heart of a major Craftworld but has never been mentioned before now, but which suddenly is critical to the plot. The Triumverate of Ynnead also is flawed I think in terms of characterization when you have 2 of the 3 essentially mute or incapable of coherent conversation.

Conherent conversation is merely one aspect of characterization, and is not necessary at all for good development - but that all depends kn whether GW wants you to understand the triumvirate or not - you typically don't characterize elements you want to be mysterious or inhuman

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Well to be fair, when GW uses new characters they get accused of forcing no names characters on us, instead of focusing on the main characters.

This. Exactly this. Look at the furor that we had over Yvraine not being Lady Malys or Visarch not being someone important. It is a losing scenario for GW no matter what they do.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Well to be fair, when GW uses new characters they get accused of forcing no names characters on us, instead of focusing on the main characters.

This. Exactly this. Look at the furor that we had over Yvraine not being Lady Malys or Visarch not being someone important. It is a losing scenario for GW no matter what they do.

For me I think it is the pacing. We get these new names appearing and they almost instantly become central to the fate of entire factions and even the entire race, while existing major characters get reduced to second bananas playing the token opposition or being subservient and saying "Yes we must all follow Yvraine". I think if the character of Yvraine had been introduced more gradually such as in earlier works, then her suddenly assuming the role of racial savior (or deranged fanatic prophet depending on interpretation) would be less jarring. Her sudden introduction and insertion is a big analogous IMO to how the old Necrons when introduced were suddenly written in as being behind or involved in important events in the distant past of every faction. It came off as ham-handed.

You mean how the "ancient silver death machines" of the Yngir were in the second edition Codex Imperialis and Codex Eldar for four years before the first necrons showed up? And how the Necrons were instantly connected to those old stories but were left as a mystery raiding force for a year or two before they got a codex which explained things? That sort of subtle introduction?

Besides it's not like there wasn't another thing before all this where Eldrad was the star, plus years of speculation about the nature of Ynnead building up to here.

Seriously, it's damned if you do, damned if you don't: the Necrons were introduced in stages but apparently all anyone remembers is their first codex so clearly the long game doesn't work; let's have everything happen in one book so people don't get confused! But that's too abrupt now?

What do you actually want?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Well to be fair, when GW uses new characters they get accused of forcing no names characters on us, instead of focusing on the main characters.

This. Exactly this. Look at the furor that we had over Yvraine not being Lady Malys or Visarch not being someone important. It is a losing scenario for GW no matter what they do.

I'd expand on this to say that there is nothing they could possibly write that would not be criticized as bad writing, bad plot, a terrible choice, etc. Its worth noting that we rarely ever see references to something being well-written until enough years have passed to let nostalgia set in. Perhaps writing is just harder than people realize, and expectations are set to high. Or maybe it really is just terrible. But once the criticism is done it's still what we have and we can either learn to appreciate the redeeming parts or consign our enjoyment to the trash bin.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Well to be fair, when GW uses new characters they get accused of forcing no names characters on us, instead of focusing on the main characters.

This. Exactly this. Look at the furor that we had over Yvraine not being Lady Malys or Visarch not being someone important. It is a losing scenario for GW no matter what they do.

I'd expand on this to say that there is nothing they could possibly write that would not be criticized as bad writing, bad plot, a terrible choice, etc. Its worth noting that we rarely ever see references to something being well-written until enough years have passed to let nostalgia set in. Perhaps writing is just harder than people realize, and expectations are set to high. Or maybe it really is just terrible. But once the criticism is done it's still what we have and we can either learn to appreciate the redeeming parts or consign our enjoyment to the trash bin.

People keep thinking that they will get black library quality writing in a codex, but we have to be realistic in the fact that most stories, even these campaign books are only so much content and the rest of the book is pretty pictures and pages of regurgitated rules. Black library books are 3-400 pages of detail writing compared to these fragments which are supposed to be short overviews. Some of the best series that have been expanded upon over the years weren't even a half page blurb (Babdad wars or even the Horus heresy). All can be expanded later through books or through the white dwarf magazine( or in old days the citadel journal, town cryer, blood bowl magazine and the necromunda magazine.).

Most codexes are written better than most Black Library books, in my opinion. Those are usually horrible.

Alcibiades wrote:
Most codexes are written better than most Black Library books, in my opinion. Those are usually horrible.

I"m guessing you've only read the CS goto books.

Alcibiades wrote:
Most codexes are written better than most Black Library books, in my opinion. Those are usually horrible.

Indeed, unless Ward is involved. This current plot seems to be heading to the BL bs territory though.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Well to be fair, when GW uses new characters they get accused of forcing no names characters on us, instead of focusing on the main characters.

This. Exactly this. Look at the furor that we had over Yvraine not being Lady Malys or Visarch not being someone important. It is a losing scenario for GW no matter what they do.

I'd expand on this to say that there is nothing they could possibly write that would not be criticized as bad writing, bad plot, a terrible choice, etc. Its worth noting that we rarely ever see references to something being well-written until enough years have passed to let nostalgia set in. Perhaps writing is just harder than people realize, and expectations are set to high. Or maybe it really is just terrible. But once the criticism is done it's still what we have and we can either learn to appreciate the redeeming parts or consign our enjoyment to the trash bin.

Awhile back I read a blog post about how Nerds don't fall in love with something, We fall in love with it's potential. We gladly look past it's faults and champion what could be. That is until we are forced to look at it in the harsh light of day and see it for what it really is, and hate it.

I think a lot of 40k fans love the grimdark back story, that is..... until they actually read it.

 fox-light713 wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Most codexes are written better than most Black Library books, in my opinion. Those are usually horrible.

I"m guessing you've only read the CS goto books.

Time to trigger anyone who ever read C. S. Goto.

Eldar Prophecy.

Done.

(Could never read that a second time. It was literally too painful to attempt. The first time was so bloated and slow....ugh.)

BrianDavion wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

Hm, I see they are bringing back Rawbutt Girlyman. Interesting.


I'm willing to bet that the hair on Matthew Ward's palms are thicker than a tropical rain forest by now.


The thing that really piques my interest in the presence of Cypher among "Team Order". It'll be interesting to see what role he plays in this little game.

yeah even as a guy with an Ultramarines and Grey Knights army, with no partiuclar intreast in the dark angels. Cypher strikes me as the real "INTREEEEEEESTING" part here.

I'm also curious what role the "Imperial Trimuvirate" from fall of cadia will have, they'll feature in the story obviously, but will we see say, a celestine/gulliman formation etc?

With GW and GW's writers, anything is possible, I suppose.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Awhile back I read a blog post about how Nerds don't fall in love with something, We fall in love with it's potential. We gladly look past it's faults and champion what could be. That is until we are forced to look at it in the harsh light of day and see it for what it really is, and hate it.

The idea that this somehow applies to 'nerds' and not just people in general is silly. Always remember: Chris Brown has tons of female fans. Tons and tons of them. There's a wonderful example of seeing past the faults (or cognitive dissonance - take your pick).

 Crimson Devil wrote:
I think a lot of 40k fans love the grimdark back story, that is..... until they actually read it.

With 40K you've got a ton of different writers coming at it from various different perspectives. Without strong editorial to shape that and focus it, you end up with people doing all sorts of crazy things (like Goto, who didn't get 40K in the same way that Gav does, so the resutls are quite different).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Awhile back I read a blog post about how Nerds don't fall in love with something, We fall in love with it's potential. We gladly look past it's faults and champion what could be. That is until we are forced to look at it in the harsh light of day and see it for what it really is, and hate it.

The idea that this somehow applies to 'nerds' and not just people in general is silly. Always remember: Chris Brown has tons of female fans. Tons and tons of them. There's a wonderful example of seeing past the faults (or cognitive dissonance - take your pick).

 Crimson Devil wrote:
I think a lot of 40k fans love the grimdark back story, that is..... until they actually read it.

With 40K you've got a ton of different writers coming at it from various different perspectives. Without strong editorial to shape that and focus it, you end up with people doing all sorts of crazy things (like Goto, who didn't get 40K in the same way that Gav does, so the resutls are quite different).

Thus we also have space elf gods running around.

 Crimson wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Most codexes are written better than most Black Library books, in my opinion. Those are usually horrible.

Indeed, unless Ward is involved. This current plot seems to be heading to the BL bs territory though.

You guys are kidding, surely? AoS campaign fluff, Draigo's Heart Carvery & Grill, Spiritual Liege'ery, the general Big Damn Heroes vibe of the codex fluff, you seriously put that above the Heresy series, Abnett's various series and one-offs, ADB's novels, Bill King, C.L. Werner? Pull the other one, it has got bells on. Even the mid-tier BL authors like McNeill, Swallow, & Counter put out one or two decent books for every gak-tier phone-in bolterporn effort/AoS novel. The Studio's fluff writing hasn't been worth using as bogroll since 5th Ed 40K times and even then it was getting shaky.

Take the offtopic BL/Codex writer quality debate to a different thread.

As someone has really doesn't mind the advancement of the story, I think there is something to be said about the writing of Fracture.

I felt Fall of Cadia was really fun and enjoyable for 40k fluff fans, but I was definitely disappointed with the Fracture of Biel Tan. it felt really disjointed and the flitting around from one Craftworld to the next with unclear goals made it somewhat tedious to read. It was endless daemon fights with no sense of urgency or stakes. Yvraine was a characterless plot device. At least in FOC we cared abou Creeeddd!

I don't know if it is because GW have trouble with Eldar or are just that much better with Imperial fluff.

Here's hoping that Book 3 goes back to the quality of Fall of Cadia

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Most codexes are written better than most Black Library books, in my opinion. Those are usually horrible.

Indeed, unless Ward is involved. This current plot seems to be heading to the BL bs territory though.

You guys are kidding, surely? AoS campaign fluff, Draigo's Heart Carvery & Grill, Spiritual Liege'ery, the general Big Damn Heroes vibe of the codex fluff, you seriously put that above the Heresy series, Abnett's various series and one-offs, ADB's novels, Bill King, C.L. Werner? Pull the other one, it has got bells on. Even the mid-tier BL authors like McNeill, Swallow, & Counter put out one or two decent books for every gak-tier phone-in bolterporn effort/AoS novel. The Studio's fluff writing hasn't been worth using as bogroll since 5th Ed 40K times and even then it was getting shaky.

Ward's stuff is inane, but the whole big damn überheroes thing originated with BL. It was BL which took the mysterious and evocative HH background from studio fluff and turned it into endless soap-opera about childish superheroes. 99% of the time when someone on the background forum has ridiculous ideas about fluff, like marines being ten feet tall immortal dudes that can jump on the orbit and punch starships to death, turns out their source was some BL book. And here we are now, Primarchs in 40K and 40K will be be like that too.

 Crimson wrote:
99% of the time when someone on the background forum has ridiculous ideas about fluff, like marines being ten feet tall immortal dudes that can jump on the orbit and punch starships to death, turns out their source was some BL book.

Well of course, the sheer amount of lore contained in the BL books are orders of magnitude above that which can be drawn from the codices. That's like saying 'there are more idiots in the US than in Sweden'. Duh, of course, because there are 35 times as many people living there.

I remember my good ol' SM codex having things you wouldn't like, from claiming that Terminators are invincible to asserting that CMs are answerable to no one but each other (suck on that Inquisitors & HLOT).

 TedNugent wrote:
Roboute is obviously first because he is going to have the greatest impact.

If/when Lion comes back, he's not really going to do much apart from spill the beans on what happened on Caliban and then swing a sword around.

I was kinda surprised when Guilliman was announced/spoiled. The latest DA codex made it clear that the Lion is is ready for action and just waiting for his mystic alarm clock to go off.

Also in some ways I think he would be more interesting for the fluff. Guilliman is the ultimate jack-of-all trades Primarch. He might not be the best in any specific area but he has no significant weaknesses either (apart from his neck apparently ). He can fight off a Black Crusade and then help to get the Imperium patched up and running along vaguely sane lines. But can even he handle all the massive tactical threats the Imperium is facing at once? He even has the charisma to help coax along those who may doubt him and avoid an Imperial schism.

The Lion on the other hand is more interesting because he can't/won't do that. He was arguably the greatest general among the Primarch's after Horus. But he was also cold, distant and arrogant. He executed one of his own men for questioning his decision to overturn the Edict of Nikea. If he came back he might even be better from a military point of view than Guilliman but he would also exacerbate every other problem the Imperium has with his "my way or the highway" attitude.

I think the Lion would have a greater impact on the Imperium even than Guilliman but possibly not the desired one.

I disagree. The Lion would focus on defeating Chaos and not care much what the Imperium does as long as they support his efforts. Guilliman would be far more disruptive since the corruption of the Emperor's Vision would be a higher priority for him.

So what we're saying is that Both of them would either create an equilibrium as the two brothers work together.... or become a second civil war as the two grind gears and clash over methods while also fighting Chaos/other threats?

Because from the rumors, Guilliman is just the FIRST Imperial Primarch returning.

Well, since the Emperor is now (almost) a full on God in 40K, due to the way that works in 40K World, wouldn't it be ironic if Lorgar is now proven right, the Emperor becomes the 5th "Chaos" God - Malal in all but name most likely - and then Lorgar is now...'Loyalist' as he will follow the God Emperor over the other 4 who possibly have let him down?

Alcibiades wrote:
Most codexes are written better than most Black Library books, in my opinion. Those are usually horrible.

You must not read very much. The average codex nowadays is just a bad comic book that appeals to those that only want their favorite superhero to fight baddies.. with no plot continuity.

Ohh wait, so what if the Emperor wasn't a god in the first place but since most of his presence was/is in the warp since his partial death, could all of humanity's emotional faith turned his entity into a god like being, like how the Eldar's funky funky birthed Slaanesh. Is that how it works? That would be pretty cool.

 Kirasu wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Most codex are written better than most Black Library books, in my opinion. Those are usually horrible.

You must not read very much. The average codex nowadays is just a bad comic book that appeals to those that only want their favorite superhero to fight baddies.. with no plot continuity.

Not an attack on you....more of a comment towards the common notion that everything is art. Warhammer 40k is entertainment, not art....just like actors/actresses are entertainment and not art.

Determining if a book/Codex is good or not can be measured by how much it entertains, not by the quality of it's writing. Moby Dick is considered a Classic work of art................we all understand what they are saying, but the book is awful and doesn't entertain anymore.

I bought Rogue Trader in 1985 and loved every piece of it, but it's not art.

back on topic,

I like the presentation of this story line and I hope it continues into the future. I'm even more eager to see what changes 8th edition brings.

I'm not saying Black Library books are art, but the majority are objectively better in terms of writing a narrative than the 40k codexs.

Best selling authors > Mat Ward.