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They are EXPANDING THE SETTING. These stories haven't answered anything, they have only broadened the range of play to include new elements of the game.

Do these books involve large plot points surrounding certain figures? Yes.

Did it also involve new narratives and interesting situations within the current setting to use as fodder for future tabletop battles? Absolutely!

Tyranids and daemons running amok in the dark eldar cities, eldar on the brink of civil war, the Inquisition, eclesiarchy, and tech priests pushing the envelope with one another while all striving for the same goal. These are all excellent, broad, and expandable plot points that will do nothing but add to the overall appeal of the game.

Major players affecting the overall scope and theme of the narrative has always been the case. To state otherwise is tantamount to claiming that Macharius' crusade of the western side of the galaxy or Vect conquering commoragh somehow made the game a story instead of a setting.

If it was a story, you would have no choice but to play the missions from these books. There is a story within the setting that is beginning to affect the universe, in the same way every single story that has ever been told by GW has always affected the universe.

Enjoy it, or ignore it, but it is what it is. An expanding setting, not a story.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
@Tneva82: Yeah, but there's a difference between having control over a single Legion and having control over 9 Legions plus a load of other assets.

Even one legion with all the stuff it had can do tons of damage. Codex Astartes was created specifically to ensure you need mass mutiny from many different factions which makes rebellion harder as you risk tipping off too soon allowing Imperium to find out. Say space marine commander even hints toward that to Imperial Navy commander he needs to do major rebellion. Imperial Navy commander plays along but in secret tips his plans off...

Again: Guillimann remembers HH just like it just had happened. He knows the reasons why he did what he did. Why he would suddenly decide against it?

Would be very uncharacteristic and ergo bad writing. Which is why GW probably does it. So far writing has been subpar fandex quality.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Ah, my apologies. I missed where your preference was right because wargames are TV shows.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Nick Fury shouldn't be played by a black man.
Heath Ledger will be a terrible Joker.

Blah. Blah. Blah. We've heard the flailing of purists before.

Interesting. Both you posted, but neither of you said anything.

They both pointed out that the things being brought up to "prove" that plot advancing is a bad thing don't make sense.

40k isn't a TV show. The setting is undergoing development during its 30th year.

Whenever anything happens in any franchise people whinge

Both relevant points.

A plot is still a plot, it doesn't matter the medium.

I dont mind people disagreeing with me, but I'm afraid I am going to insist on them displaying comprehension of my argument while doing so.

Wargames being nothing like a TV show is absolutely, completely, irrelevant to the point I was making.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
They are EXPANDING THE SETTING.

Adding the Necrons was expanding the setting. Adding Tau was expanding the setting.

Advancing the plot =/= expanding the setting.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
They are EXPANDING THE SETTING.

Adding the Necrons was expanding the setting. Adding Tau was expanding the setting.

Advancing the plot =/= expanding the setting.

This.

Expanding the setting is adding new races or characters backgrounds while everything else remains the same in the long run ( status quo if you will ).

Here they destroyed one of the most important worlds in the setting, changing the balance of the two major factions. Then they shattered two others ( Eldar and Dark Eldar ) and finally they are bringing back a demigod who has the power to turn one of the major and most powerful faction into OP powerhouse that could crush all opposition before them. And that is without adding potential spoilers for the 8'th edition.

This is everything but expansion of the setting. if anything I would call it evolution of the setting to a new level ( Warhammer 41k ).

 Azreal13 wrote:



You know why TV shows have a shelf life? Or why movie sequels are almost always inferior to their predecessors? It's because if you have to work with a narrative, you either have to offer resolution or keep one-upping previous events. If you don't offer resolution, the audience gets bored and frustrated, if you continue to go bigger, you eventually cross into parody.

GW are already bordering on the latter, if they keep moving things forward (even if this is a single step for now) where can you see the game in 3 years? 10? 40K has lasted 30 years inhabiting, give or take, the same snap shot of time. It might seem exciting to have these long hinted at events actually occur in the fluff and in game, but ultimately what GW have done by moving the narrative forward rather than diving deeper into the universe is start a stopwatch that's going to keep counting down for their customers. What was a sandbox for the gamer and designers to play in is becoming a vector headed towards a conclusion. When your stated aim is to make the best toy soldiers in the world and keep doing it forever, starting your golden goose IP on a journey towards a conclusion isn't the best idea.

Hmm... well put. What if they move it forwards a bit and then take a step back and leave it alone for a while? Moving the plot forwards now doesn't necessarily mean it has to keep moving, though I imagine there's a risk that now they have the ball rolling it will be difficult to stop.

I think I sit on the fence with the plot progression. I'm glad to see a bit of movement; I don't mind seeing some primarchs show up, some big players die, campaigns won and lost etc., just as long as the factions themselves remain more or less as they are.

They did post a video near 2016's end mentioning how 2017 was gonna be BIG; Then Fall of Cadia is released in January. We are in March and we are getting our first loyalist Primarch.

Now, I understand how many of you wanted the status quo, but me, I'm loving this ! It's only March and the 40k storyline is already completely different when compared to December (of many, many, MANY years), we have one of the famous Demi-Gods back. (and hopefully not as briefly as a certain Primarch in The Beast saga). I can only wonder what the remaining 9 months will bring, and what the 8th edition will be like considering how this seems to be leading there.

And I'm sure tons of Warhammer players loved all the big movements in the plot of WFB right up until the moment it stopped being Warhammer and became Age of Trademarks.

Be careful what you wish for.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And I'm sure tons of Warhammer players loved all the big movements in the plot of WFB right up until the moment it stopped being Warhammer and became Age of Trademarks.

Be careful what you wish for.

And now the plot advances at the speed of decades in IRL months. So players can't actually keep up. By the time you have fought how it goes in your games plot has already changed nullifying your games.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And I'm sure tons of Warhammer players loved all the big movements in the plot of WFB right up until the moment it stopped being Warhammer and became Age of Trademarks.

Be careful what you wish for.

I'm ... not a good example: I had no interest in WFB, 0, nil, now I'm a fan of AoS and about to start Ironjawz.

I love reading about 40k, but I hate the current state of the game ... if a certain revolution in 8th edition rules makes me want to play it again, win-win

tneva82 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And I'm sure tons of Warhammer players loved all the big movements in the plot of WFB right up until the moment it stopped being Warhammer and became Age of Trademarks.

Be careful what you wish for.

And now the plot advances at the speed of decades in IRL months. So players can't actually keep up. By the time you have fought how it goes in your games plot has already changed nullifying your games.

I never understood this. Your games are your universe. You have your own campaign, so you can have the fun and enjoyment of creating your own timeline where Abbadon actually curb-stomped everyone. What difference makes the official plot line?

I'm never going to understand this fear people have of the plot advancing. I probably shouldn't even comment, I don't get it at all. I don't care that Han Solo died in Force Awakens, I can still fly him around in my X-Wing games. I won't care if the "current" 40k story changes things, I'm obviously going to continue using Creed and pre-Black Rage Tycho and all the rest of it. Games are played at an arbitrary point in the universe's timeline to make the game work, surely. The way you guys talk you'd think any game based on a story that actually has an ending would automatically be unplayable, characters can never die or change allegiances, etc. To me that's stagnation and I hate it. Good stories end!

 Bull0 wrote:
I'm never going to understand this fear people have of the plot advancing. I probably shouldn't even comment, I don't get it at all. I don't care that Han Solo died in Force Awakens, I can still fly him around in my X-Wing games. I won't care if the "current" 40k story changes things, I'm obviously going to continue using Creed and pre-Black Rage Tycho and all the rest of it. Games are played at an arbitrary point in the universe's timeline to make the game work, surely. The way you guys talk you'd think any game based on a story that actually has an ending would automatically be unplayable, characters can never die or change allegiances, etc. To me that's stagnation and I hate it. Good stories end!

I'm never going to understand why people don't get that 40K isn't a story (unlike the Star Wars saga movies). It's a setting.

Some rumors seems to be confirmed as true by the warhammer community:

Jesus not to mention we've now got canonical examples of "time-lost" 30k era forces rocking up to fight in m41, usually through alien maguffins or warp shenanigans. The setting is almost impervious to these temporal problems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
HBMC - that's daft, Star Wars is a "setting" too. Do you have any other points to counter what I said or just that soundbite?

Both the addition of depth and the increase of breadth are expansions of the setting.

Also, notice how many people have raged immeasurably at the Tau and necron story elements? Same thing here. If it isn't your cup of tea, ignore that part of the game. But don't treat it as if they are different.

 Bull0 wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
HBMC - that's daft, Star Wars is a "setting" too. Do you have any other points to counter what I said or just that soundbite?

What do you mean by that? The movies are absolutely stories. It's all about the Skywalkers. Everything else is backdrop. The expanded universe is a setting.

tneva82 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And I'm sure tons of Warhammer players loved all the big movements in the plot of WFB right up until the moment it stopped being Warhammer and became Age of Trademarks.

Be careful what you wish for.

And now the plot advances at the speed of decades in IRL months. So players can't actually keep up. By the time you have fought how it goes in your games plot has already changed nullifying your games.

absolute fallacy, games arent nullified by this. If this were true why would people be playing 30k?

 TheDraconicLord wrote:
I never understood this. Your games are your universe. You have your own campaign, so you can have the fun and enjoyment of creating your own timeline where Abbadon actually curb-stomped everyone. What difference makes the official plot line?

Technically nothing. Of course makes paying for the books stupid idiotic thing because I can't use them! Because if I use them there will be sooooo many contradictions that if those happened in our universum it would cause instant destruction. Laws of physics would break loose. You would have situation where characters, planets and sectors are both alive and dead _at the same time_.

So basically GW is forcing me to not buy their books. I can't justify spending money on books that would just sit on the shelf. Contents are useless.

Ruin wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
HBMC - that's daft, Star Wars is a "setting" too. Do you have any other points to counter what I said or just that soundbite?

What do you mean by that? The movies are absolutely stories. It's all about the Skywalkers. Everything else is backdrop. The expanded universe is a setting.

OK, I think i understand - so the star wars universe is a setting and warhammer 40k is a setting. What does that mean? Just semantics. You can play The Old Republic happily even if you don't like Jar Jar, and you can play Badab War games even if you don't like Rise of the Primarch. The complaints amount to "I don't like the writing much but that's just an opinion so I need to argue it somehow breaks the property on a meta level". Navelgazing codswallop.

I don't think this is productive, I probably shouldn't have chipped in. I'm happy for the take home to be "Bull0 doesn't get it, what a shocker". im not in favour of anything that harms some peoples' enjoyment of their games!

Stepping into this debate, alright first of all, as some of you may have surmised from my user name, I... played Battletech, did for ages. MW2 brought me in, and I slowly drifted away after the Jihad. what drove me away BTW was the massive rapid changes made too fast to the setting. I say this, because yeah personal experiance has taught that a game setting starts to suck hard if every 6 months to a year, everything totally changes.

so... with that said.... Rise of the Primarch is NOT that. yes it's a change to the setting, a BIG one at that, it does not mean however these changes will continue etc. it's entirely possiable GW'll throw some major happenings out into the universe, stuff with big implications etc, that promise future epic battles etc to come....

And then sit there. it could be simply a matter of us being 5 minutes to midnight instead of 10.

massive continueing changes to the setting are bad I agree, but occasionally hitting the setting with some development and a jolt, can be good. there's a middle ground between stagnation and "too much change for even tzeetch"

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
I think, rather than reform the Legions of the Heresy era, we may see some Chapters rolled into each other as a result of getting their faces smashed in.

So the Chapter in the Codex sense will persist, but some of the more grievously wounded ones (thinking Blood Angels specifically, didn't they and their successors just get a mauling from the Nids?) will be smooshed together into something not a Chapter but not quite a Legion either.

It would explain the sudden spate of books about the Scythes of the Emperor.

I'm not fully up to speed with all of the Scythes background but could they just be expanding on threads from the Horus Heresy books as to how the Tyranids homed in on the Imperium in the first place.

They must have some whacked out planning meetings for Black Library books.

"You know the Scythes got a chinning from the Tyranids in 40K? What if it was because of something the Ultramarines did in the Heresy era?"

"Excellent idea. Now we can spin out a load of 40K short stories and novels expanding the Scythes."

After all, the HH as we know it now was spun out from one text box in a rule book..

And filler text at that

Damn, that is an awesome quote. Roboute is not happy!

Yup.

Also, rear left hand corner, right in the background....

Is...is that a Custodes? Looks too big to be Macragge Honour Guard?

Well it looks like we finally know for sure what Guilliman thinks of the current state of the Imperium. You know it bad when the guy who would looked to keep the dream alive even after he thought Terra had be been lost looks around and goes "yeah no, I'd rather be dead"

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Also, rear left hand corner, right in the background....
Is...is that a Custodes? Looks too big to be Macragge Honour Guard?

Isn't that Cawl?
Or are you seeing something I don't...

Edit....left...yeah I see it... :-)