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changemod wrote:

Everyone on the planet knows it’s purely heresy because the suits didn’t feel like funding them to have even the cosmetic touches to have chaos titans as a faction.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

I also didn't know this.

Yeah I found it really confusing the last time I put titans on a table, they all held hands & refused to shoot each other because the game only has one faction

 xttz wrote:

changemod wrote:

Everyone on the planet knows it’s purely heresy because the suits didn’t feel like funding them to have even the cosmetic touches to have chaos titans as a faction.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

I also didn't know this.

Yeah I found it really confusing the last time I put titans on a table, they all held hands & refused to shoot each other because the game only has one faction

I also found this when I played an American Civil War game.

However, I wasn't being flippant. I read the game, saw Horus Heresy branding and thought "okay, its a civil war game. Great, I like civil war games." Didn't know I needed to display radical differences between the opposing titans. Just a different uniform.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 Thargrim wrote:
I feel like part of why this game works is that it does one thing and does it well. Which is titan vs titan combat. Once you start throwing in flyers, tanks, infantry, god knows what else. It will start to suffer from all the same issues 40k/apocalypse has. Just let Adeptus Titanicus be what it is. I do see the appeal of Eldar titans and stuff. But now that the original rules designer is no longer with the company I worry about future rules installments. A lot of what we are seeing released was all written some time ago.

Put all of the ground troops, flyers and tanks in a stand alone boxed game, which has compatibility with AT. Maybe call it something like "Space Marine"?

How about they all appear in a game that's actually designed for that scale of combat, instead of being shoe-horned into a crunchier system for Titan combat intended to be played with 10-12 units on the board? That sure would be Epic. And something that already exists that you can go play now.

 gorgon wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 Thargrim wrote:
I feel like part of why this game works is that it does one thing and does it well. Which is titan vs titan combat. Once you start throwing in flyers, tanks, infantry, god knows what else. It will start to suffer from all the same issues 40k/apocalypse has. Just let Adeptus Titanicus be what it is. I do see the appeal of Eldar titans and stuff. But now that the original rules designer is no longer with the company I worry about future rules installments. A lot of what we are seeing released was all written some time ago.

Put all of the ground troops, flyers and tanks in a stand alone boxed game, which has compatibility with AT. Maybe call it something like "Space Marine"?

How about they all appear in a game that's actually designed for that scale of combat, instead of being shoe-horned into a crunchier system for Titan combat intended to be played with 10-12 units on the board? That sure would be Epic. And something that already exists that you can go play now.

But that's basically what he said.

 xttz wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 Thargrim wrote:
I feel like part of why this game works is that it does one thing and does it well. Which is titan vs titan combat. Once you start throwing in flyers, tanks, infantry, god knows what else. It will start to suffer from all the same issues 40k/apocalypse has. Just let Adeptus Titanicus be what it is. I do see the appeal of Eldar titans and stuff. But now that the original rules designer is no longer with the company I worry about future rules installments. A lot of what we are seeing released was all written some time ago.

Put all of the ground troops, flyers and tanks in a stand alone boxed game, which has compatibility with AT. Maybe call it something like "Space Marine"?

How about they all appear in a game that's actually designed for that scale of combat, instead of being shoe-horned into a crunchier system for Titan combat intended to be played with 10-12 units on the board? That sure would be Epic. And something that already exists that you can go play now.

But that's basically what he said.

See above.

I would love Epic to come back but it would absolutely needs its own ruleset with significantly streamlined Titans, not something you bolt onto AT.

Amen.

Anyway, looks like the Warlord-Sinister is temporarily out of stock again...at least in the US. They're going to sell truckloads of those when all is said and done. At $132 (I was very, very wrong about the cost), those things are priced to sell.

During the early previews of the game, James Hewitt did say that the rules were written to be able to expand into Epic. I can sort of see that. I can imagine, for example, a Land Radier detachment. 3-6 land raiders with Las Cannons. Similar in terms of operation and rules as a Knight Banner. Whether they do that or not is another question.

Would be pretty boring if they just add non-titan unit to act as moving pieces that ignore half the rule of this game.

Although I wouldn't mind buying a few dozen tiny baneblade.

There are already macrobatteries and apoc launcher emplacements. Baneblades and shadowswords would be effectively mobile turrets. Heavier guns than knights, but no ion shields or melee ability.

 zedmeister wrote:
During the early previews of the game, James Hewitt did say that the rules were written to be able to expand into Epic. I can sort of see that. I can imagine, for example, a Land Radier detachment. 3-6 land raiders with Las Cannons. Similar in terms of operation and rules as a Knight Banner. Whether they do that or not is another question.

Whilst your quote is correct (I was there when we first heard about it), I’m not especially keen on that idea.

AT is about Titans, and their inherent resource management. The game plays more akin to a Naval Game than Ground War, due to limited manoeuvres etc.

Epic should be about colossal armies during it out. Carnage on a mahoosive scale that not even Apocalypse can scratch. That to me requires simplified rules for Titans, as otherwise the risk is we end up effectively playing two games at once.

Whilst Epic Space Marine remains my favourite, I do think Epic Armageddon was a good update, tarnished by the god awful wrong step that was Epic 40,000. All I’d add back is the army selection method from ESM. Company Card, up to five support cards, single Special Card. Yes it’s book keeping, but it’s a really sweet system!

See, the company cards were, typically, kind of inflexible. Unless it’s a Tactical Company, they tend to do just One Thing in terms of role. So your choice of support and special card were important. If like me you favoured the Objective Game over sheer destruction, I’d look at essentially assembling sub-armies. And it looked really cool.

Further adaptation is of course possible, such as welding the chosen cards into a single force. But I’m OT quite enough already, so shall cease my mindless prattling!

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I would love Epic to come back but it would absolutely needs its own ruleset with significantly streamlined Titans, not something you bolt onto AT.

We managed in the 90s

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 zedmeister wrote:
During the early previews of the game, James Hewitt did say that the rules were written to be able to expand into Epic. I can sort of see that. I can imagine, for example, a Land Radier detachment. 3-6 land raiders with Las Cannons. Similar in terms of operation and rules as a Knight Banner. Whether they do that or not is another question.

Whilst your quote is correct (I was there when we first heard about it), I’m not especially keen on that idea.

AT is about Titans, and their inherent resource management. The game plays more akin to a Naval Game than Ground War, due to limited manoeuvres etc.

Epic should be about colossal armies during it out. Carnage on a mahoosive scale that not even Apocalypse can scratch. That to me requires simplified rules for Titans, as otherwise the risk is we end up effectively playing two games at once.

Whilst Epic Space Marine remains my favourite, I do think Epic Armageddon was a good update, tarnished by the god awful wrong step that was Epic 40,000. All I’d add back is the army selection method from ESM. Company Card, up to five support cards, single Special Card. Yes it’s book keeping, but it’s a really sweet system!

See, the company cards were, typically, kind of inflexible. Unless it’s a Tactical Company, they tend to do just One Thing in terms of role. So your choice of support and special card were important. If like me you favoured the Objective Game over sheer destruction, I’d look at essentially assembling sub-armies. And it looked really cool.

Further adaptation is of course possible, such as welding the chosen cards into a single force. But I’m OT quite enough already, so shall cease my mindless prattling!

There's no reason tanks/epic scale units cannot be bought into it, but it should be capped and mainly used for scenario purposes.

a maniple(s) have been sent to engage the outer defences of a hive that is protected by other titans/knights but also happens to have a guard regiment, a small SH company (baneblades and variants) and maybe a space marine company as part of the defences.

Not the main component of the force by any means but they're there to add flavour and flexibility. Upto 25% can be spent on none AT or Knight units. Some specific scenarios allow for more....

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I would love Epic to come back but it would absolutely needs its own ruleset with significantly streamlined Titans, not something you bolt onto AT.

We managed in the 90s

In the 90's Space Marine was a separate rules system to AT, with significantly streamlined rules for titans (at least 2nd edition was, can't remember what the situation was with the first edition, but I have the feeling that also had different, simpler, rules for titans than those in AT, but I could be misremembering).

Tavis75 wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I would love Epic to come back but it would absolutely needs its own ruleset with significantly streamlined Titans, not something you bolt onto AT.

We managed in the 90s

In the 90's Space Marine was a separate rules system to AT, with significantly streamlined rules for titans (at least 2nd edition was, can't remember what the situation was with the first edition, but I have the feeling that also had different, simpler, rules for titans than those in AT, but I could be misremembering).

2nd edition wasn't. It was a single system. I think you're thinking of 1st edition with Adeptus Titanicus and Space Marine with the original Codex Titanicus acting as a bridge between the two systems.

 zedmeister wrote:

Tavis75 wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I would love Epic to come back but it would absolutely needs its own ruleset with significantly streamlined Titans, not something you bolt onto AT.

We managed in the 90s

In the 90's Space Marine was a separate rules system to AT, with significantly streamlined rules for titans (at least 2nd edition was, can't remember what the situation was with the first edition, but I have the feeling that also had different, simpler, rules for titans than those in AT, but I could be misremembering).

2nd edition wasn't. It was a single system. I think you're thinking of 1st edition with Adeptus Titanicus and Space Marine with the original Codex Titanicus acting as a bridge between the two systems.

1st edition Space Marine was a compatible system that shared the same turn structure as AT, but could be played independently. There was a couple of pages of rules that detailed how the two games interacted but otherwise they could be considered distinct games. AT continued to recieve new content that did not require players to use Space Marine, such as Chaos titans.

2nd edition Space Marine streamlined the Titan-specific rules so everything was in the same rulebook, effectively ending AT as a game in it's own right. From that point everything was Epic.

 zedmeister wrote:

Tavis75 wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I would love Epic to come back but it would absolutely needs its own ruleset with significantly streamlined Titans, not something you bolt onto AT.

We managed in the 90s

In the 90's Space Marine was a separate rules system to AT, with significantly streamlined rules for titans (at least 2nd edition was, can't remember what the situation was with the first edition, but I have the feeling that also had different, simpler, rules for titans than those in AT, but I could be misremembering).

2nd edition wasn't. It was a single system. I think you're thinking of 1st edition with Adeptus Titanicus and Space Marine with the original Codex Titanicus acting as a bridge between the two systems.

That's kind of what I meant, second edition was about the armies, there were rules for using Titans but it was a completely separate system to AT and considerably simplified over AT, really just designed for adding a titan or two to an epic army, not about playing Titan vs Titan games. Was no longer playing by the time Titan Legions came out, so don't know if that added back in rules more suited for Titan vs Titan games.

Tavis75 wrote:


That's kind of what I meant, second edition was about the armies, there were rules for using Titans but it was a completely separate system to AT and considerably simplified over AT, really just designed for adding a titan or two to an epic army, not about playing Titan vs Titan games. Was no longer playing by the time Titan Legions came out, so don't know if that added back in rules more suited for Titan vs Titan games.

Basically the Imperator and Mega-gargant got the terminal cards / counters for detailed resource management, and other titans remained largely the same. There were also a few optional campaign rules for things like titan crew experience & skills.

Titan Legions wasn't really intended for solely Titan vs Titan games, although technically nothing was stopping you.

On a slightly different note, one slight disappointment with the Warbringer, after studying the sprues it doesn't look like it includes the gunnery spotter and servitor that stand on the carapace, was hoping we might get our first full AT scale humans after the grot bombers in AI.

Oh, and no alternative head, plus the head is on the main body sprue, so even if we ever got a replacement armour sprue it would have the same head. Maybe we'll get some resin ones from FW one day.

 xttz wrote:

Tavis75 wrote:


That's kind of what I meant, second edition was about the armies, there were rules for using Titans but it was a completely separate system to AT and considerably simplified over AT, really just designed for adding a titan or two to an epic army, not about playing Titan vs Titan games. Was no longer playing by the time Titan Legions came out, so don't know if that added back in rules more suited for Titan vs Titan games.

Basically the Imperator and Mega-gargant got the terminal cards / counters for detailed resource management, and other titans remained largely the same. There were also a few optional campaign rules for things like titan crew experience & skills.

Titan Legions wasn't really intended for solely Titan vs Titan games, although technically nothing was stopping you.

The Imperator and Mega-Gargant were sort of the tipping point where it jumped the shark IMO, when they started becoming practically one model armies in and of themselves. Either they deleted the enemy army, or they went down in flames and you were crippled because you had invested all your points in that one model. The Imperator was a bigger issue than the Mega-Gargant, since the Mega-Gargant could be worn down more easily and its firepower degraded more quickly. The games where I saw an Imperator get fielded, the game turned into a race to see if the opponent could penetrate its 12 regenerating void shields and hit those few critical spots that could result in an instant Titan kill (leg, head, mind impulse unit, reactor, plasma coupling). I didn't see much degradation of the Imperator's firepower since I never saw anyone intentionally targeting the weapons or non-critical locations.

When the survival or destruction of one model dominates and determines the game, overshadowing other objectives, then there is a problem.

The lack of additional heads is a real missed opportunity – it's such an important part of giving your Titans some personality and visual identity.

Apart from anything else, it'd be a great retro nod to the huge range there used to be.

I really hope we'll see variant heads as a Forge World release soon. In particular, I really want an update of the old alternative Reaver head, so I can recreate Mercato Stipent, an old favourite Titan of mine:

Well, looks like the new Ignatum and Astorum sheets have already sold out online! They burnt through their stock rather rapidly. Looks like Legio Vulpa has also sold out...

 Apologist wrote:
I really hope we'll see variant heads as a Forge World release soon.

So do I, but I have my doubts - the alternative Knight heads they did for 40k sold really badly by all accounts (and were quickly discontinued).

Alternate heads could be put out as an upgrade pack with multiple ones, if they'd give rules for small upgrades in an upcoming expansion book. A list of generic small upgrades beside the legio specific ones would be fun any way, S&I has some in the campaign section IIRC

It is the upgrade sets we find alternative bonces.

Warlord now has four or five variants across the 'original' kit and Plasma Kit. Reaver has similar. Warhounds are bit more interchangable.

Saw the Legio Audax rules they shared on Warhammer TV. Have a lot of thoughts about these, but I'll just leave them here for now.

Wolves Among Prey: Can squadron up to five Audax Titans, and can squadron up even if Titans are in another maniple or a reinforcement Titan.

Stalk Unseen: -2 to hit if in 25% cover (instead of -1) in the first round

Reinforced Plating -- small points cost - armor rolls are -1 against it

Audax Ursus Claws are S4 instead of S3

Princeps traits:
1) Stalk Unseen works in round 1 and 2
2) Princeps can reroll failed armor rolls against critically damaged locations
3) Reroll command checks of 1 for Audax Titans within 3" of Princeps

Canis Light Maniple (3 WH mandatory, 2 WH optional, Legio Audax only):
- At start of deployment, place markers equal to the number of Titans in the maniple anywhere on the battlefield more than 6" from enemy deployment zone.
- After both players finish normal deployment, Audax player can place Warhounds from this maniple within 3" of a marker IF they are at least 50% obscured from any enemy unit.
- If a Warhound can't be placed that way, it deploys normally instead.

I don't mean to be mean, but influencers have read the entire book out aloud on Youtube a week before release.

Yeah, you’re right. Let’s shut down any attempt at actual talk about the contents and get back to discussing how AT should really be Epic.

Removed - Rule #1 please

 gorgon wrote:
Yeah, you’re right. Let’s shut down any attempt at actual talk about the contents and get back to discussing how AT should really be Epic.

Removed - Rule #1 please

And what scale it is.

I didn't realise that Audax got a strength increase along with the reinforced plating...interesting.

In another way I'm a bit disappointed that Shadow & Iron hasn't introduced the maniple - or was it a legio? - where we can take scout titans, and not necessarily the Hound. It was mentioned waaaay back.