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 gorgon wrote:
Honestly I think the majority of the "turn AT into Epic" crowd doesn't really even play AT. And wasn't that rumor about AT shutting down from some 4chan rando who's already been shown to be wrong about some stuff?

I'm not sure what it is, but it seems like AT gets a lot of commentary from the peanut gallery.

Because the fans of Epic are probably as, if not more numerous, than AT and certainly dedicated enough that they've been writing and using community rules since Epic was previously put down by GW.

Plus "turn AT into Epic" is one of the two likely directions GW will eventually take the game, the other being "add Xeno titans". Why? Because the alternatives of "keep only selling 30k Imperial Titans" and "sunset the game" while both possible are the two that present the least opportunity for growth since it wouldn't engage players outside of the current base. And while AT might stay Imperial for a while, I personally don't think GW wants to throw their current specialist game investment away as easily as last time.

JWBS wrote:
Yeah I've seen the Warmaster weapon complaint many times. It was Crablezworth every time though, not seen anyone else criticise it or even mention it, heh.

Oh, I also think it really sucks. I felt that Crablezworth put it to words way better than I ever could.

JWBS wrote:
Yeah I've seen the Warmaster weapon complaint many times. It was Crablezworth every time though, not seen anyone else criticise it or even mention it, heh.

There's 5 iconoclasts sitting on the shelf at my flgs, so mission accomplished I'd say. Battle bling printer go brrrr.


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 Jack Flask wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
Honestly I think the majority of the "turn AT into Epic" crowd doesn't really even play AT. And wasn't that rumor about AT shutting down from some 4chan rando who's already been shown to be wrong about some stuff?

I'm not sure what it is, but it seems like AT gets a lot of commentary from the peanut gallery.

Because the fans of Epic are probably as, if not more numerous, than AT and certainly dedicated enough that they've been writing and using community rules since Epic was previously put down by GW.

Plus "turn AT into Epic" is one of the two likely directions GW will eventually take the game, the other being "add Xeno titans". Why? Because the alternatives of "keep only selling 30k Imperial Titans" and "sunset the game" while both possible are the two that present the least opportunity for growth since it wouldn't engage players outside of the current base. And while AT might stay Imperial for a while, I personally don't think GW wants to throw their current specialist game investment away as easily as last time.

Something's gotta give, I'd honestly trust them more to expand into epic than balance out xenos titans, but ya the rumour was 2022 was the last year and at this rate, I believe it.




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 Malika2 wrote:

JWBS wrote:
Yeah I've seen the Warmaster weapon complaint many times. It was Crablezworth every time though, not seen anyone else criticise it or even mention it, heh.

Oh, I also think it really sucks. I felt that Crablezworth put it to words way better than I ever could.

If anything, the fluff for it was the worst part. "hurr durr it was even secreter than the warmaster hurr durr and the emperor also didn't know about it hurr durr but every single legio has them hurr durr, even the lightest titan is a flexible weapon system but lets make a giant close combat only titan cuz rawr traitors"

 Crablezworth wrote:
There's 5 iconoclasts sitting on the shelf at my flgs, so mission accomplished I'd say. Battle bling printer go brrrr.

38 on Darksphere. Thing is with the Warmaster is most people will only ever want 1 and will most likely not buy a second for the weapons, especially if you can't mix and match which makes it an even less likely buy. Honestly, they should have just put the weapon pack out. Those would have shifted.

As for the Dire Wolf, I'm definitely a fan of it. GW's strength is in plastic production and this produced in resin is a stopgap or it's is because you'll only ever need one or two. But that begs the question of: why plastic Warmaster?

Because a resin Warmaster would have been so expensive (FW rates) that most folks wouldn’t get it (especially considering FW quality resin casting).

Yeah but most people that don't want it will just not get it, you know. I don't have it yet, and I think it's okay. It just doesn't look as good as the original to me. Crablzeworth seems genuinely angry about this, and it doesn't seem to be healing with time, as evidenced above.

I think the frustration is justified, the background justifications just seem to be rather…lazy. But then again, I haven’t bought a GW product in many maaaaaany years! :p

JWBS wrote:
Yeah but most people that don't want it will just not get it, you know. I don't have it yet, and I think it's okay. It just doesn't look as good as the original to me. Crablzeworth seems genuinely angry about this, and it doesn't seem to be healing with time, as evidenced above.

I think anger and frustration is completely justified when you really have a passion for something, and then there is a fear that the large, clumsy and sometimes uncaring hands of GW will treat the thing you care about (and have spent hours of your free time with) shittily.

It's the same reason people get upset when a new codex, army book, rules or whatever come along and aren't up to par. For people that have spent dozens of hours carefully crafting their collection and it gives them enjoyment, to see an uncaring turd fall from a great height (smashing the miniatures to bits) isn't a pretty sight.

There is no way AT would be cancelled before AI.

 zedmeister wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
There's 5 iconoclasts sitting on the shelf at my flgs, so mission accomplished I'd say. Battle bling printer go brrrr.

38 on Darksphere. Thing is with the Warmaster is most people will only ever want 1 and will most likely not buy a second for the weapons, especially if you can't mix and match which makes it an even less likely buy. Honestly, they should have just put the weapon pack out. Those would have shifted.

As for the Dire Wolf, I'm definitely a fan of it. GW's strength is in plastic production and this produced in resin is a stopgap or it's is because you'll only ever need one or two. But that begs the question of: why plastic Warmaster?

Everyone forgets to that GW needed to be basically shamed into selling the warlord weapon arms sprues. I think the reality is, they never considered that the 3d market will eat their lunch if they can't fill in the missing pieces in terms of modularity and customization.


Fair point about only ever needing one or two dire wolf, it's a fair assumption that it will aux and I'm hoping that ends up being the case.


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JWBS wrote:
Yeah but most people that don't want it will just not get it, you know. I don't have it yet, and I think it's okay. It just doesn't look as good as the original to me. Crablzeworth seems genuinely angry about this, and it doesn't seem to be healing with time, as evidenced above.

Crablezworth has put thousands of hours into one game, AT, you could say it's a focus of his artistically and takes up a good portion of his free time. I don't currently play any other tabletop game, so you could say it sucks to be an evangelist for a game I've to apologize for and make ever growing excuses for and honestly a lot of the people I got into it are backing out because they can see the writing on the wall, I had friends flat out not believe GW was brazen enough to not even allow weapon swaps, literally had to show them the traitor book. I didn't want to be right, man. My criticism is simple too, we were sold a game with modular weapons and loadouts where we decide the combat role of the titan based on loadout, clearly someone is in charge now who doesn't play and think every new titan is a chance for some mono build nonsense, they changed the deal. It's hard not to notice.


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 Malika2 wrote:
Because a resin Warmaster would have been so expensive (FW rates) that most folks wouldn’t get it (especially considering FW quality resin casting).

Ya considering what the armigers cost. I'm wondering what the cost on the dire wolf is going to be.

 Crablezworth wrote:
Ya considering what the armigers cost. I'm wondering what the cost on the dire wolf is going to be.

Dire.

 Pacific wrote:

JWBS wrote:
Yeah but most people that don't want it will just not get it, you know. I don't have it yet, and I think it's okay. It just doesn't look as good as the original to me. Crablzeworth seems genuinely angry about this, and it doesn't seem to be healing with time, as evidenced above.

I think anger and frustration is completely justified when you really have a passion for something, and then there is a fear that the large, clumsy and sometimes uncaring hands of GW will treat the thing you care about (and have spent hours of your free time with) shittily.

It's the same reason people get upset when a new codex, army book, rules or whatever come along and aren't up to par. For people that have spent dozens of hours carefully crafting their collection and it gives them enjoyment, to see an uncaring turd fall from a great height (smashing the miniatures to bits) isn't a pretty sight.

I tried my best to sell gaming buddy's on AT, obviously the pandemic didn't help with that, still have friends who are sorta more interested in terms of watching or the modelling side than the game. I think with the iconoclast, people with even a basic understanding of 3d resin printing and how it's changed things in the last bit think "wait so you're saying you can't just go buy some stl's for the arms and the top?" For a bit the answer was no, but now there's some awesome files for warmaster close combat arms and the top gun and of course all the battle bling ones.

I dunno, I look at necromunda and gw clearly understand modularity there, they still get it somewhat in that fw has some weapons sold on their own for warhound/reaver/warlord. But the value and support just feels lacking, and I'm a heretic if my default position on every release isn't humble gratitude.


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 Arbitrator wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
Ya considering what the armigers cost. I'm wondering what the cost on the dire wolf is going to be.

Dire.

lol, very true


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 Arbitrator wrote:
There is no way AT would be cancelled before AI.

Maybe they'll still it at but it will have a different sub heading/title and it will be the same models but 40k setting. Like a semi new edition.

 Crablezworth wrote:

I dunno, I look at necromunda and gw clearly understand modularity there, they still get it somewhat in that fw has some weapons sold on their own for warhound/reaver/warlord. But the value and support just feels lacking, and I'm a heretic if my default position on every release is humble gratitude.

Necromunda is kinda modular. The upgrade kits have weapons/arms that only work on specific bodies.

If GW is stupid enuff to lose out on all the extras they'd sell, let the fans take up the slack...

But GW is just being dumb, I've said rock whatever for a while w AT. Don't let them dictate how you play your games. After all, you have had the power inside you all along....

Pretty much this. My Iconoclast, when I do eventually build it, will be fitted with IK weapons. idgaf.

 zedmeister wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
There's 5 iconoclasts sitting on the shelf at my flgs, so mission accomplished I'd say. Battle bling printer go brrrr.

38 on Darksphere. Thing is with the Warmaster is most people will only ever want 1 and will most likely not buy a second for the weapons, especially if you can't mix and match which makes it an even less likely buy. Honestly, they should have just put the weapon pack out. Those would have shifted.

As for the Dire Wolf, I'm definitely a fan of it. GW's strength is in plastic production and this produced in resin is a stopgap or it's is because you'll only ever need one or two. But that begs the question of: why plastic Warmaster?

Yeah...I think the results showed that the market was there for one WM but not two. It's not like every WM owner would necessarily even buy the Iconoclast weapons sprue. They would likely have been better off using that Iconoclast plastic slot for one of the missing 'tweener Titans. It'd just be more interesting to a greater number of players. It's a misstep by the marketing team, but to me a self-contained one that isn't an indictment of the whole product line.

 Arbitrator wrote:
There is no way AT would be cancelled before AI.

I agree. Look at the activity for AI on this forum, any other forum, facebook, or reddit. AT has probably 10x the playerbase of AI if forum activity is anything to go by.

I think it'll be interesting to see what the marketing plan for the Dire Wolf will be. I presume it'll be released alongside a campaign book (if so, what is it?). Although if it's a resin-only auxiliary Titan that they aren't planning to sell in vast numbers, I suppose it doesn't HAVE to be.

If it's part of a campaign book release, then will it be the only miniature release? Or could we see it plus a plastic kit since the production streams don't cross?

It'll be interesting to see how AT unfolds this year.

Given the outrage over the Warlord Sunfury kit, I'm surprised there wasn't the same for the even larger and more expensive Warmaster...

No idea what comes next for Titanicus but it would have to be something downright brilliant to draw me back in. But I would assume a further expansion would cover scout titans and knights.

SamusDrake wrote:
Given the outrage over the Warlord Sunfury kit, I'm surprised there wasn't the same for the even larger and more expensive Warmaster...

I think its niche nature was a big part of that. It's not like you can bring it to every game.

 gorgon wrote:


I think its niche nature was a big part of that. It's not like you can bring it to every game.

A good point, but players were moaning they spent as much as £65 on their titan and couldn't even give it different weapons - this chap is £95. Thats a hellva lot of money for a mostly static titan...

 gorgon wrote:

SamusDrake wrote:
Given the outrage over the Warlord Sunfury kit, I'm surprised there wasn't the same for the even larger and more expensive Warmaster...

I think its niche nature was a big part of that. It's not like you can bring it to every game.

For sure, it's more what it meant for titans to come. In defense of the first warmaster, it balances pretty well if both sides have one. To your point about it not being too common in terms of games, that's true. I sorta felt stupid getting it for that reason, I felt less silly when they previewed the warmaster, so for me who already has that sunk cost it went from like, relief in that "oh cool they're actually supporting it with more options" so that also accounts for how sour the reaction was, as others have stated the appetite to field 2 warmasters per side isn't huge.

 Crablezworth wrote:

Fair point about only ever needing one or two dire wolf, it's a fair assumption that it will aux and I'm hoping that ends up being the case.

Complete guess on my part, but my suspicion is it'll be a bit like the Asterius. Yes, it's expensive. But with how the rules are currently, it is highly unlikely you'll ever need more than 1 if at all.

 zedmeister wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

Fair point about only ever needing one or two dire wolf, it's a fair assumption that it will aux and I'm hoping that ends up being the case.

Complete guess on my part, but my suspicion is it'll be a bit like the Asterius. Yes, it's expensive. But with how the rules are currently, it is highly unlikely you'll ever need more than 1 if at all.

Hope so.

The fluff certainly seem to be pointing that way.

tbh the reason you don't hear much about AT from AT fans is because they're too busy building, painting, and playing AT.

It's a really good game with really good models, there's no impetus for them to come onto the forums and complain about a game that's genuinely really good. There was also a much more trusted rumormonger that suggested AT was one of the best-selling specialist games that GW has, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case.

Unlike other specialist games that need a small number of models like Blood Bowl and Necromunda, AT is a bit unique in that to get a proper sizeable force, you really do have to spend a pretty penny, but those pennies are going to gorgeous models that make fantastic maniples with balanced powers, flavorful legios, and fun stratagems that reward skillful play. There are a few issues keeping the game from perfect balance, but many AT players aren't the grindy competitive type, so it's easy enough to say "Yeah, maybe that Legio + Stratagem is too OP, just don't use that next time".

The Epic crowd, meanwhile, just wants to 3d print a bunch of leman russes and baneblades and play a game using GW rules and GW support but without paying GW a dime for the models they'd make.
(Yes I know this is hyperbolic, but from the few epic players I've met, this was really their entire desire).

drbored wrote:
The Epic crowd, meanwhile, just wants to 3d print a bunch of leman russes and baneblades and play a game using GW rules and GW support but without paying GW a dime for the models they'd make.
(Yes I know this is hyperbolic, but from the few epic players I've met, this was really their entire desire).

...from what I keep seeing in this thread, there's a chunk of the AT "community" in that same (3D-printed) boat, drbored.

 Dysartes wrote:

drbored wrote:
The Epic crowd, meanwhile, just wants to 3d print a bunch of leman russes and baneblades and play a game using GW rules and GW support but without paying GW a dime for the models they'd make.
(Yes I know this is hyperbolic, but from the few epic players I've met, this was really their entire desire).

...from what I keep seeing in this thread, there's a chunk of the AT "community" in that same (3D-printed) boat, drbored.

From what I've seen of that 3d printed community, AT peeps use it to swap out armor panels and create base decorations. Whereas with Epic, 3d printing literally undermines the entire product line.

drbored wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

drbored wrote:
The Epic crowd, meanwhile, just wants to 3d print a bunch of leman russes and baneblades and play a game using GW rules and GW support but without paying GW a dime for the models they'd make.
(Yes I know this is hyperbolic, but from the few epic players I've met, this was really their entire desire).

...from what I keep seeing in this thread, there's a chunk of the AT "community" in that same (3D-printed) boat, drbored.

From what I've seen of that 3d printed community, AT peeps use it to swap out armor panels and create base decorations. Whereas with Epic, 3d printing literally undermines the entire product line.

You might have a point if GW had a product line. Or a game.

It has neither, and most Epic players don't give a rat's ass if GW makes a new game called Epic or not. Because yes, they are already being catered to. Just not by GW.

Considering how many in the 3D print market chase copy-cat designs of GW stuff - I'd wager if GW released official new Epic models there'd be a healthy market

The whole idea of 3D printing replacing GW is - false to my mind. The only way they replace right now for the majority is the same way that 3rd parties have always replaced GW - by providing a secondary shop experience that sells models.

3D printing at home is a small thing right now. Growing yes, by all means its growing fast, but its still niche. The process isn't clean, super safe, simple nor is it suited to young teenagers.

Heck even many people who are interested are sometimes locked out because they don't have a shed/room/place to put the printer to work safely.




Heck with the wait to print and the clean up its sometimes nice to just get some good old plastic models to clean up and play with.

In the end 3D printing presents options and choices but GW would still dominate the market if they released a model line for Epic. Which is honestly what we should hope is the case for ANY model manufacturer coming to the market. The last thing we should want is a structure that destroys the chances for companies to make viable model lines and games

Apparently there is something called "honour banners" in next month's White Dwarf. The suspense is already killing me...

...oh wait, its literally how to make banners for titans. Nothing to do with Knight banners at all.