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 Melissia wrote:
They already aren't.

The generated wound is equal.

If we can't differentiate wounds, it favors quantity over quality -- you're just searching out 1's to force failed saves. Layered saves really exaggerate this effect.

Versus a 3++ Terminator :

150pts of Lascannons --> 4(2/3)(5/6)(1/3) = 0.74W
150pts of Lasguns --> 60(1/2)(1/3)(1/6) = 1.67W

So in this case, Lasguns are nearly twice as effective. All questions of durability aside, how 40k allocates damage is questionable.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
They already aren't.

The generated wound is equal.

The ability to generate wounds isn't. Once again, there's no reason to nerf lasguns even more. They're already plenty weak.

 Melissia wrote:
The ability to generate wounds isn't.

Try versus a T6 3+ target:

420pts of Bolters : 30(2/3)(1/6)(1/3) = 1.11
420pts of Lasguns : 70(2/3)(1/6)(1/3) = 2.59W

In this case -- their ability to generate wounds is identical. Isn't it?

It's just one of those weird glitches that occurs because of how 40k calculates damage.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
The ability to generate wounds isn't.

Try versus a T6 3+ target:

And your point is? A T6 target with power armor equivalent isn't meant to be taken down by boltgun style weapons.

Also, your comparison is silly because it's attempting to take points cost in to consideration when those points buy you far more than merely a boltgun, in spite of the whiny complaints of many Marine players who like to pretend otherwise.

 Melissia wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
The ability to generate wounds isn't.

Try versus a T6 3+ target:

And your point is? A T6 target with power armor equivalent isn't meant to be taken down by boltgun style weapons.

Also, your comparison is silly because it's attempting to take points cost in to consideration when those points buy you far more than merely a boltgun, in spite of the whiny complaints of many Marine players who like to pretend otherwise.

Oh yes, those wonderful Krak Grenades and ATSKNF that are super bonkers!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
...Oh yes, those wonderful Krak Grenades and ATSKNF that are super bonkers!

Spoken like someone who's never had to try and play a game without them.

Nor has he apparently had to play without Toughness 4, or without BS4, or without S4 or I4, or without a 3+ armor save, or Ld9, or chapter tactics....

 Melissia wrote:
Nor has he apparently had to play without Toughness 4, or without BS4, or without S4 or I4, or without a 3+ armor save, or Ld9, or chapter tactics....

I use Scions and pure Skitarii on a semi-regular basis. Your move.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
The ability to generate wounds isn't.

Try versus a T6 3+ target:

420pts of Bolters : 30(2/3)(1/6)(1/3) = 1.11
420pts of Lasguns : 70(2/3)(1/6)(1/3) = 2.59W

In this case -- their ability to generate wounds is identical. Isn't it?

It's just one of those weird glitches that occurs because of how 40k calculates damage.

Except you aren't buying 420pts worth of Bolters and Lasguns, you are buying 420pts of Space Marine and Guardsmen. If you have 70 Guardsmen they are much harder to bring to bear against a single target because of the sheer amount of table space they take up.

You also picked the absolute worst case to compare Bolters to Lasguns because it's the only case where the strength and AP bonus of a Bolter is irrelevant.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Another idea. In addition to T5 2W and FNP (with a pretty substantial price increase for MoN terminators ) allow them to mix and match weapons the same way wolfstar do. Assault cannon and SS? If you want an 80+ point model sure. Missile launcher and lightening claws? Be my guest. I'm not suggesting termies get ALL these buffs, but 2 or 3 would make them what they are supposed to be. I mean never again do I want to see S5 storm bolters. That's more or less bringing back psy bolt for GK.

So you want them to be Centurions.

Not centurions. They serve completely different purposes. A centurions is a half-assed IoM battlesuits that provides a 2+ save and stat mods and allows for a regular marine wearing the armor to wield heavy weapons. If they get caught in combat they're role in the game is over. CC centurions have use, but only with certain CTs. They're supposed to tear down enemy fortifications and strong points instead of wielding heavy ranged weapons.

What I'm suggesting is merely expand wold guard options to all termies while making them much tougher (as they flippin should be). Keep their options limited to terminator weapons, but fold the CC and tac terminators into one profile. Let them mix and match upgrades to CC and/or ranged weapons. FNP for sure, and I would say 2 wounds. Leave T5 to the cents wearing layered armor. Instead perhaps give terminators WS/BS5 and or Rending storm bolters. I really think Terminators should have Centurions state, FNP and 2 heavy weapons per 5 with Rending stormbolters. That fits the fluff but game play wise centurions really stole terminator Thunder as far as toughness goes. Honestly I don't see why it can't be like that, either a HS mobile heavy weapons platform, or an Elites slot that focuses on taking down MC/GMC/Fortifications /Super heavies or a really tough, elite all rounder that deep strikes and doesn't take up as much space in transports.

Yoyoyo wrote:
If we can't differentiate wounds, it favors quantity over quality -- you're just searching out 1's to force failed saves. Layered saves really exaggerate this effect.

If you had layered saves it'd reduce the effect of mass shooting vs low AP single shot weapons, because the lascannon would negate the first save and only have to deal with the 2nd save, the lasgun would require the Terminator to fail 2 saves.

But with the current rules the Lascannon is wasting points on S9 if all it's doing is shooting Terminators, you only need S6 to force a 2+ to wound roll so you're wasting 3 increments worth of strength. So it's not really a surprise the same amount of points of Lascannons are less effective against Terminators, it's an inefficient use of points.

That's partly what 40k is about, discovering the most efficient way of killing things. A Lascannon is better pointed at a high T or vehicular target while a Lasgun is better pointed at a Terminator.

Now if you made Terminators T5 and 2W, the Lascannon becomes much more effective because you've actually pushed Terminators in to the "tank-like" category.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But with the current rules the Lascannon is wasting points on S9 if all it's doing is shooting Terminators, you only need S6 to force a 2+ to wound roll so you're wasting 3 increments worth of strength.

This is exactly why you end up with S6 spam.

I mean, don't a lot of people see that as proof of a broken mechanic?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Now if you made Terminators T5 and 2W, the Lascannon becomes much more effective because you've actually pushed Terminators in to the "tank-like" category.

It actually becomes half as effective (or three times less effective with FNP).

Issues like this are why 40k's current mechanics are broken and outdated. You have to fix 40k first before you can fix anything else within it.

Yoyoyo wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But with the current rules the Lascannon is wasting points on S9 if all it's doing is shooting Terminators, you only need S6 to force a 2+ to wound roll so you're wasting 3 increments worth of strength.

This is exactly why you end up with S6 spam.

I mean, don't a lot of people see that as proof of a broken mechanic?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Now if you made Terminators T5 and 2W, the Lascannon becomes much more effective because you've actually pushed Terminators in to the "tank-like" category.

It actually becomes half as effective (or three times less effective with FNP).

Actually I'd give Lascannon's a "multiple wounds" rule and feth off the "instant death" rule, so Lascannons would do something like D3 wounds in the rulebook of Skink.

@ AllSeeingSkink

That's more like it. I'd have a system were AP reduces the save instead of the current nonsense, but having that is rare enough to begin with. Then instead of instant death, powerful weapons just inflict multiple wounds.

feth it, I'll say it. I'd go all AoS.

Terminators should be about precision strikes to create local superiority of firepower (and melee power).

Keep the cost as is, but give them either...

(1) a precision deep strike: no scatter, or minimal scatter; arrive on the turn you choose on a 3+ or next turn on a 1-2.

(2) a heavily discounted Land Rover (any variant) as a dedicated transport. If you pick this option they can still potentially deep strike but don't get the benefits as above.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Nor has he apparently had to play without Toughness 4, or without BS4, or without S4 or I4, or without a 3+ armor save, or Ld9, or chapter tactics....

I use Scions and pure Skitarii on a semi-regular basis. Your move.

Both of which get armor saves against boltguns and have BS4.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
...Oh yes, those wonderful Krak Grenades and ATSKNF that are super bonkers!

Spoken like someone who's never had to try and play a game without them.

I have. ATSKNF has never been weaker, since Xenos are killing units enmasse with no morale check.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
Nor has he apparently had to play without Toughness 4, or without BS4, or without S4 or I4, or without a 3+ armor save, or Ld9, or chapter tactics....

None of those things really make marines good. If they did, BA would be good. Marines are propped up purely by gimmicks. Their firepower/pt is not good, and their durability/pt goes down substantially once you start giving them equipment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But with the current rules the Lascannon is wasting points on S9 if all it's doing is shooting Terminators, you only need S6 to force a 2+ to wound roll so you're wasting 3 increments worth of strength.

This is exactly why you end up with S6 spam.

I mean, don't a lot of people see that as proof of a broken mechanic?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Now if you made Terminators T5 and 2W, the Lascannon becomes much more effective because you've actually pushed Terminators in to the "tank-like" category.

It actually becomes half as effective (or three times less effective with FNP).

Actually I'd give Lascannon's a "multiple wounds" rule and feth off the "instant death" rule, so Lascannons would do something like D3 wounds in the rulebook of Skink.

In my proposal, I gave lascannons a flat 2 wounds/hull points.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Another idea. In addition to T5 2W and FNP (with a pretty substantial price increase for MoN terminators ) allow them to mix and match weapons the same way wolfstar do. Assault cannon and SS? If you want an 80+ point model sure. Missile launcher and lightening claws? Be my guest. I'm not suggesting termies get ALL these buffs, but 2 or 3 would make them what they are supposed to be. I mean never again do I want to see S5 storm bolters. That's more or less bringing back psy bolt for GK.

So you want them to be Centurions.

Not centurions. They serve completely different purposes. A centurions is a half-assed IoM battlesuits that provides a 2+ save and stat mods and allows for a regular marine wearing the armor to wield heavy weapons. If they get caught in combat they're role in the game is over. CC centurions have use, but only with certain CTs. They're supposed to tear down enemy fortifications and strong points instead of wielding heavy ranged weapons.

What I'm suggesting is merely expand wold guard options to all termies while making them much tougher (as they flippin should be). Keep their options limited to terminator weapons, but fold the CC and tac terminators into one profile. Let them mix and match upgrades to CC and/or ranged weapons. FNP for sure, and I would say 2 wounds. Leave T5 to the cents wearing layered armor. Instead perhaps give terminators WS/BS5 and or Rending storm bolters. I really think Terminators should have Centurions state, FNP and 2 heavy weapons per 5 with Rending stormbolters. That fits the fluff but game play wise centurions really stole terminator Thunder as far as toughness goes. Honestly I don't see why it can't be like that, either a HS mobile heavy weapons platform, or an Elites slot that focuses on taking down MC/GMC/Fortifications /Super heavies or a really tough, elite all rounder that deep strikes and doesn't take up as much space in transports.

You can claim Centurions stole the Terminators thunder in the defense department all you want, but math says that Terminators were never durable in the first place. Hence why my only objective is buffing their offense. They weren't ever meant for defense. Thinking so is just silly at this point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Nor has he apparently had to play without Toughness 4, or without BS4, or without S4 or I4, or without a 3+ armor save, or Ld9, or chapter tactics....

I use Scions and pure Skitarii on a semi-regular basis. Your move.

Both of which get armor saves against boltguns and have BS4.

I've been proxying Gemestealer Cults for a few games as well.

Seriously, ATSKNF isn't any much a benefit and Krak Grenades are wasted points in almost all the Marine entries (especially now with the 1 grenade attack thing going on). Who cares about getting saves vs Bolters? Cover is super easy to obtain unless you play on open tables all the time or you're a bad player (which is always a possibility).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Another idea. In addition to T5 2W and FNP (with a pretty substantial price increase for MoN terminators ) allow them to mix and match weapons the same way wolfstar do. Assault cannon and SS? If you want an 80+ point model sure. Missile launcher and lightening claws? Be my guest. I'm not suggesting termies get ALL these buffs, but 2 or 3 would make them what they are supposed to be. I mean never again do I want to see S5 storm bolters. That's more or less bringing back psy bolt for GK.

So you want them to be Centurions.

Not centurions. They serve completely different purposes. A centurions is a half-assed IoM battlesuits that provides a 2+ save and stat mods and allows for a regular marine wearing the armor to wield heavy weapons. If they get caught in combat they're role in the game is over. CC centurions have use, but only with certain CTs. They're supposed to tear down enemy fortifications and strong points instead of wielding heavy ranged weapons.

What I'm suggesting is merely expand wold guard options to all termies while making them much tougher (as they flippin should be). Keep their options limited to terminator weapons, but fold the CC and tac terminators into one profile. Let them mix and match upgrades to CC and/or ranged weapons. FNP for sure, and I would say 2 wounds. Leave T5 to the cents wearing layered armor. Instead perhaps give terminators WS/BS5 and or Rending storm bolters. I really think Terminators should have Centurions state, FNP and 2 heavy weapons per 5 with Rending stormbolters. That fits the fluff but game play wise centurions really stole terminator Thunder as far as toughness goes. Honestly I don't see why it can't be like that, either a HS mobile heavy weapons platform, or an Elites slot that focuses on taking down MC/GMC/Fortifications /Super heavies or a really tough, elite all rounder that deep strikes and doesn't take up as much space in transports.

You can claim Centurions stole the Terminators thunder in the defense department all you want, but math says that Terminators were never durable in the first place. Hence why my only objective is buffing their offense. They weren't ever meant for defense. Thinking so is just silly at this point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Nor has he apparently had to play without Toughness 4, or without BS4, or without S4 or I4, or without a 3+ armor save, or Ld9, or chapter tactics....

I use Scions and pure Skitarii on a semi-regular basis. Your move.

Both of which get armor saves against boltguns and have BS4.

I've been proxying Gemestealer Cults for a few games as well.

Seriously, ATSKNF isn't any much a benefit and Krak Grenades are wasted points in almost all the Marine entries (especially now with the 1 grenade attack thing going on). Who cares about getting saves vs Bolters? Cover is super easy to obtain unless you play on open tables all the time or you're a bad player (which is always a possibility).

TERMINATOR ARMOR WAS DESIGNED TO BE TOUGH! IN THE FLUFF IT IS A VIABLE TACTIC TO USE A SQUAD OF IT AS MOVING COVER!

It's never been remotely that good on the tabletop. Serious cognitive dissonance on the part of GW. It's priced as if it lives up to the fluff.

Cover is another problem.

Look at the durability of a RW Black Knight, a rerollable 3+ Jink means they've actually got a better save than Terminators (even without the bike toughness boost).

Two Plasmaguns will inflict 0.25W, in comparison Terminators suffer 1.48W despite their Invul save.

This is a little messed up. Just to add to the hilarity, versus Lasguns:

RW Knights : 20(2/3)(1/6)(1/3) = 0.74W
Terminators : 20(2/3)(1/3)(1/6) = 0.74W

You'd think a 2+ would outperform a single point of Toughness, but against S3 that's evidently not the case.

That's why T5 W2 is the hotness this edition. Not T4 2+.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
...Oh yes, those wonderful Krak Grenades and ATSKNF that are super bonkers!

Spoken like someone who's never had to try and play a game without them.

Yeah, I sometimes wonder if marine players realize how absolutely AMAZING ATSKNF is, especially for free.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
...Oh yes, those wonderful Krak Grenades and ATSKNF that are super bonkers!

Spoken like someone who's never had to try and play a game without them.

Yeah, I sometimes wonder if marine players realize how absolutely AMAZING ATSKNF is, especially for free.

It's not. Because 7th ed is about high firepower. My units don't live to get to use ATSKNF. I'm not imagining this.

Martel732 wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
...Oh yes, those wonderful Krak Grenades and ATSKNF that are super bonkers!

Spoken like someone who's never had to try and play a game without them.

Yeah, I sometimes wonder if marine players realize how absolutely AMAZING ATSKNF is, especially for free.

It's not. Because 7th ed is about high firepower. My units don't live to get to use ATSKNF. I'm not imagining this.

You're the one who's constantly advocating for all the balance changes that make Space Marines into cannon fodder in the first place to be accepted/encouraged.

Well, I'm forced to accept what GW has written in the codices every time I play. Maybe I'm just adaptable. I realize that S6/7 spam and mass AP2 aren't going anywhere. No reason to pretend that ATSKNF is a critical rule at that point.

Yes, things would be different if I were writing the whole system. But that's not happening. No reason to pretend it is.

And make no mistake. Tac marines weren't good in 2nd, 5th, or 6th. Maybe in 3rd in the stripped down codex and 4th I don't know. As it stand now, they have above average durability until you equip them. Then they dip down to mediocre at best.

Martel732 wrote:
Well, I'm forced to accept what GW has written in the codices every time I play. Maybe I'm just adaptable. I realize that S6/7 spam and mass AP2 aren't going anywhere. No reason to pretend that ATSKNF is a critical rule at that point.

Yes, things would be different if I were writing the whole system. But that's not happening. No reason to pretend it is.

And make no mistake. Tac marines weren't good in 2nd, 5th, or 6th. Maybe in 3rd in the stripped down codex and 4th I don't know.

You could make up your mind as to whether your Space Marines should be useless or their uselessness is something worth griping about constantly.

Extra wounds, modified toughness, etc is awful fixing from a game design perspective, as well as mutilating the fluff.

The problem is Terminator armour is just that, a type of armour. Its also found across multiple armies, Chaos, Space Marine, Grey Knights, Inquisitors. It's also found across varied statted units including multi wound and multi toughness ones, from Captains, Paladins, Inquisitors, Nurgle Marked CSM, and so on. Some of these changes simply don't work well outside of regular SM Tactical Terms.

Bikes already modify toughness and that mechanic should be left there.

The good fix from a game AND fluff perspective was already quietly mentioned once, then promptly ignored. Make Terminator armour confer a 1+ save, where a roll of 1 always fails. Strip the Invulnerable save. Characters in Terminator armour cannot 'Look Out Sir' wounds (they're just too heavy and ponderous to move out of the way)

This gives Terminator Armour it's 2+ save against Plasma themed weapons, Grav (either wound automatically or on 2+) Rending, Bladestorm, Monstrous creatures, Lascannons and Bright/Dark Lances, Demolisher shells, Powerfists/Thunderhammers etc. These sorts of weapons and rules are everywhere in all armies and that's the reason Terminators are awful.

Tactical Terminators would be no save against Melta, Fusion guns, Heat Lances, Servo Arms, Conversion Beamers, Deathrays and Doomsday cannons, Fire Prisms, Heavy Rail Guns/NeutronLasers/Eradication Beamers, Exorcist Missle Launchers. These sorts of weapons are far less spammable and not seen even close to the extent of the others. Melta is commonly available but short ranged and almost always single shot, rarely do units exceed 2 per except specialists like FDs, Sternguard. Melee AP1 is rare outside of poor characters like Lylyth and Fuegan.

This also has a positive effect of increasing the value of small arms fire/bog standard infantry, as it's now needed far more in bulk to generate weight of wounds to force the 1's on Terminator armoured units and heroes. It increases the competitive value of poorly rated Terminator armoured commanders to the more popular support type HQ characters. Yes Librarians can also take Terminator armour, but the 3 wound vs 2 wound gap increases in importance to favour the 3W hero.

It makes the penalties for Terminator Armour in the form of no sweeping advance and limited transport a balanced tradeoff. It restores the iconic place of Terminator armour in the setting as the toughest form of protection in the galaxy able to shrug off blows from all but the biggest, rarest guns. It restores underperforming armies like Grey Knights, Deathwing, Chaos Marines.

It makes so much sense to fix it this way (1+ save) I'd be shocked if it wasn't a blanket patch update across all TDA in 8th, assuming the rest of the core game mechanics stay the same.

I've accepted the helplessness of the basic marine. Primarily what I lament is lack of empowering gimmicks that vanilla and DA received. The only true marine list that functions as they should crunch wise is the SW. But that's because they can field a lot of non-marines. Don't forget marines were useless in 2nd, as well. They have a long history of uselessness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
Extra wounds, modified toughness, etc is awful fixing from a game design perspective, as well as mutilating the fluff.

The problem is Terminator armour is just that, a type of armour. Its also found across multiple armies, Chaos, Space Marine, Grey Knights, Inquisitors. It's also found across varied statted units including multi wound and multi toughness ones, from Captains, Paladins, Inquisitors, Nurgle Marked CSM, and so on. Some of these changes simply don't work well outside of regular SM Tactical Terms.

Bikes already modify toughness and that mechanic should be left there.

The good fix from a game AND fluff perspective was already quietly mentioned once, then promptly ignored. Make Terminator armour confer a 1+ save, where a roll of 1 always fails. Strip the Invulnerable save. Characters in Terminator armour cannot 'Look Out Sir' wounds (they're just too heavy and ponderous to move out of the way)

This gives Terminator Armour it's 2+ save against Plasma themed weapons, Grav (either wound automatically or on 2+) Rending, Bladestorm, Monstrous creatures, Lascannons and Bright/Dark Lances, Demolisher shells, Powerfists/Thunderhammers etc. These sorts of weapons and rules are everywhere in all armies and that's the reason Terminators are awful.

Tactical Terminators would be no save against Melta, Fusion guns, Heat Lances, Servo Arms, Conversion Beamers, Deathrays and Doomsday cannons, Fire Prisms, Heavy Rail Guns/NeutronLasers/Eradication Beamers, Exorcist Missle Launchers. These sorts of weapons are far less spammable and not seen even close to the extent of the others. Melta is commonly available but short ranged and almost always single shot, rarely do units exceed 2 per except specialists like FDs, Sternguard. Melee AP1 is rare outside of poor characters like Lylyth and Fuegan.

This also has a positive effect of increasing the value of small arms fire/bog standard infantry, as it's now needed far more in bulk to generate weight of wounds to force the 1's on Terminator armoured units and heroes. It increases the competitive value of poorly rated Terminator armoured commanders to the more popular support type HQ characters. Yes Librarians can also take Terminator armour, but the 3 wound vs 2 wound gap increases in importance to favour the 3W hero.

It makes the penalties for Terminator Armour in the form of no sweeping advance and limited transport a balanced tradeoff. It restores the iconic place of Terminator armour in the setting as the toughest form of protection in the galaxy able to shrug off blows from all but the biggest, rarest guns. It restores underperforming armies like Grey Knights, Deathwing, Chaos Marines.

It makes so much sense to fix it this way (1+ save) I'd be shocked if it wasn't a blanket patch update across all TDA in 8th, assuming the rest of the core game mechanics stay the same.

Then the T4 just gets exploited even more. I'm already mostly killing terminators with weight of fire. This only really helps vs the ion accelerator and grav.