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2017/04/06 07:52:33
Subject: Games Workshop - Shadow War Armageddon - sold out already (pg 62)
CATACHANTV wrote: I have the game, i'm building scenery and surprise plateform no need glue, we can unbuild easyli the scenery.
Thanks for the pic. Nice to see how it works. Kinda worried that it'll break eventually, but it's a fantastic method for dry-fitting combos and finding what you like (unlike CoD buildings, where I have pages of hand-dram diagrams and Excel-spreadsheets counting tile usage and other nonsense).
The White Dwarf article does implore people to glue the pieces into place once you're satisfied with the configuration, as the parts will wear down and break over time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/06 07:53:53
Fatum Iustum Stultorum
Fiat justitia ruat caelum
2017/04/06 08:01:09
Subject: Games Workshop - Shadow War Armageddon - sold out already (pg 62)
H.B.M.C. wrote: People are really wondering if this game should be a tournament game?
It's a campaign game, not a tournament game.
Why not?
Blood Bowl has progression style tournaments, it wouldnt be too hard to come up with a framework for tourney play.
Blood bowl is a pretty controlled environment. You have 1 scenario (the game), you have mechanisms to help lower ranked teams
Necromunda (and shadow wars) will have lopsided games, the scenarios aren't balanced, the gangs aren't balanced. In Necromunda the progression rates will be vastly different.
Of course you could slap together a tournament, it's just not particularly suited to it. It's suited to a fun campaign game where you'll do things like chuck two gangs that have been mauled to hell at the leading Gang in an ambush because one of them insulted another's mother in the drinking hole
2017/04/06 08:32:41
Subject: Games Workshop - Shadow War Armageddon - sold out already (pg 62)
Blood bowl is a pretty controlled environment. You have 1 scenario (the game), you have mechanisms to help lower ranked teams
Necromunda (and shadow wars) will have lopsided games, the scenarios aren't balanced, the gangs aren't balanced. In Necromunda the progression rates will be vastly different.
and your argument is?
that it is impossible in Shadow War because it was in Necromunda?
Or that it is impossible to just cut the not suited scenarios and create an controlled environment because the rules force you to do the opposite
so also playing a campaign is not fun, because of not balanced teams and lopsided games some people will always win, and others will always lose (you know not all people have fun with games were it is clear that they lost before it starts)
And Blood Bowl Teams are not balanced either and you take different teams for pick up games, LGS leagues and tournaments.
your argument is not against tournaments but against every event/campaign/league
so why should someone start with the game?
to just but stuff on the table, roll dice and put it away because trying to win the game is pointless, you can also just play 500points 40k
Vorian wrote: it's just not particularly suited to it. It's suited to a fun campaign game where you'll do things like chuck two gangs that have been mauled to hell at the leading Gang in an ambush because one of them insulted another's mother in the drinking hole
and 40k is meant to be played as an evening filling game with no one tries to win but just put nice looking models on the table, roll dice and drink beer
and there are still tournaments
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
2017/04/06 08:56:32
Subject: Games Workshop - Shadow War Armageddon - sold out already (pg 62)
That was essentially Games Workshops mission statement for the past 10 years and it saw their share price plummet. They failed to understand, as you do, that for a lot of people the models are just an accessory for the rules.
Very recently, they've started realising that the "Games" in Games Workshop actually has a meaning for some people. They've started listening to their user base and producing more friendly games which are easier to get into and are easier to play. I accept that anecotal evidence is just that and it's impossible for us to say how many buy the models for the game and how many buy the games for the models but, since they started putting out better rulesets their stock price has soared. That itself carries some weight as far as evidence goes.
2017/04/06 09:11:26
Subject: Games Workshop - Shadow War Armageddon - sold out already (pg 62)
That was essentially Games Workshops mission statement for the past 10 years and it saw their share price plummet. They failed to understand, as you do, that for a lot of people the models are just an accessory for the rules.
Very recently, they've started realising that the "Games" in Games Workshop actually has a meaning for some people. They've started listening to their user base and producing more friendly games which are easier to get into and are easier to play. I accept that anecotal evidence is just that and it's impossible for us to say how many buy the models for the game and how many buy the games for the models but, since they started putting out better rulesets their stock price has soared. That itself carries some weight as far as evidence goes.
Im not sure about that, they seem to make most money off the big display type models, the best selling model of last year, their best year for a while, did not even have any rules.
2017/04/06 09:20:48
Subject: Games Workshop - Shadow War Armageddon - sold out already (pg 62)
That was essentially Games Workshops mission statement for the past 10 years and it saw their share price plummet. They failed to understand, as you do, that for a lot of people the models are just an accessory for the rules.
Very recently, they've started realising that the "Games" in Games Workshop actually has a meaning for some people. They've started listening to their user base and producing more friendly games which are easier to get into and are easier to play. I accept that anecotal evidence is just that and it's impossible for us to say how many buy the models for the game and how many buy the games for the models but, since they started putting out better rulesets their stock price has soared. That itself carries some weight as far as evidence goes.
Im not sure about that, they seem to make most money off the big display type models, the best selling model of last year, their best year for a while, did not even have any rules.
When I see how many people are just playing with grey plastics I think GW needs both, the gamer and the collector, to stay healthy.
2017/04/06 09:21:11
Subject: Games Workshop - Shadow War Armageddon - sold out already (pg 62)
Im not sure about that, they seem to make most money off the big display type models, the best selling model of last year, their best year for a while, did not even have any rules.
Out of curiosity what was that?
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better.
2017/04/06 09:31:03
Subject: Games Workshop - Shadow War Armageddon - sold out already (pg 62)
Im not sure about that, they seem to make most money off the big display type models, the best selling model of last year, their best year for a while, did not even have any rules.
Out of curiosity what was that?
Smaug I think it was, although it was obviously not done by the most units sold, the most profitable, would have been a better description I think.
2017/04/06 09:37:07
Subject: Games Workshop - Shadow War Armageddon - sold out already (pg 62)
Blood bowl is a pretty controlled environment. You have 1 scenario (the game), you have mechanisms to help lower ranked teams
Necromunda (and shadow wars) will have lopsided games, the scenarios aren't balanced, the gangs aren't balanced. In Necromunda the progression rates will be vastly different.
and your argument is?
that it is impossible in Shadow War because it was in Necromunda?
Or that it is impossible to just cut the not suited scenarios and create an controlled environment because the rules force you to do the opposite
so also playing a campaign is not fun, because of not balanced teams and lopsided games some people will always win, and others will always lose (you know not all people have fun with games were it is clear that they lost before it starts)
And Blood Bowl Teams are not balanced either and you take different teams for pick up games, LGS leagues and tournaments.
your argument is not against tournaments but against every event/campaign/league
so why should someone start with the game?
to just but stuff on the table, roll dice and put it away because trying to win the game is pointless, you can also just play 500points 40k
Vorian wrote: it's just not particularly suited to it. It's suited to a fun campaign game where you'll do things like chuck two gangs that have been mauled to hell at the leading Gang in an ambush because one of them insulted another's mother in the drinking hole
and 40k is meant to be played as an evening filling game with no one tries to win but just put nice looking models on the table, roll dice and drink beer
and there are still tournaments
The question was, is Shadow Wars more suitable for a tournament game than 40k.
The answer was regarding Shadow Wars as it is, in the box.
Can you modify it to be a tournament game? Of course. The mechanics are just 2nd edition 40k. You could just play gang fight for each fight and accept that the teams aren't going to be anywhere near balanced.
You could stop advances and injuries and other things that will affect relative strength of players forces between the rounds.
If you want to think that this description means that it is a more tournament friendly game that current 40k then, ok, but I'll be over there will the majority of people playing this as the campaign game it actually is.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/06 09:39:03
2017/04/06 10:24:39
Subject: Re:Games Workshop - Shadow War Armageddon - sold out already (pg 62)
People who ordered from Wayland Games have just received this email:
Spoiler:
Firstly I wanted to thank you for ordering Shadow War Armageddon with us at Wayland Games, order reference ********* .
As you know there is lots of hype and speculation floating around about the lack of stock for the release of "Shadow War: Armageddon". When we heard this was being released we were as excited as our customers and placed a large order for stock with Games Workshop, the manufacturer.
We were notified that the release would be "Capped" in the launch week, which is usual for GW's new releases. What this means is that retailers will be sent a number the week of release, with the rest to follow over the following weeks.
We had anticipated that this would be the case, which is why we listed it on the site with following statement "Due to a severely restricted stock allocation across all UK retailers, our ability to supply this product is limited. Orders for this item may take a little longer to be dispatched as we wait for the stock to arrive from Games Workshop."
Since this item was released we have been trying to get confirmation on the amount of stock we will get on the day of release and when we can expect the rest of the stock we require to fulfil all orders.
Nothing we were given by Games Workshop leading up to the pre-order indicated that this product was either a "limited" or a "splash release", only that initial stock would be capped (as all new releases are). We are also asked to place an order with GW before we are given any information about any limits or caps. We are very disappointed with the current situation and have been seeking a clear and definitive answer from Game Workshop. This morning we received a message from Games Workshop confirming they would be unable to honour our stock request, stating that "No more box sets will be produced".
Because of this, we will unfortunately have to cancel this item from your order. We don't want to hold onto your money because the manufacturer can't supply what you ordered so you can either have store credit or have an immediate full refund.
We can offer you store credit with an additional £5 as a gesture of good will, or if you prefer we can provide a full refund back to your original payment method, just email us and we will arrange for an immediate refund or store credit.
Once again please let me say how sorry we are for the inconvenience and how disappointed we are that the manufacturer has not been able to confirm that they can supply the stock we requested on your behalf.
If you have any questions, please email us and we will get back to you as soon as we can.
Best regards,
Wayland Games
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/06 10:28:50
2017/04/06 10:24:41
Subject: Games Workshop - Shadow War Armageddon - sold out already (pg 62)
Why must everything be a tournament game? Just have fun with friends as it's designed to be used. Necromunda campaigns are the best - this will also be super fun.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
2017/04/06 10:34:19
Subject: Games Workshop - Shadow War Armageddon - sold out already (pg 62)
I feel sorry for Wayland in this instance, given that GW have given them next to no info about the amount of copies than can expect to get or be able to order. All the orders they took have to be predicated on being able to get stock in a timely fashion; now they have to do an about-turn and try to smooth over fractious customer relations for something that is completely outside their sphere of control.
Yep, wayland are being properly screwed by GW there.
Also, we now know there won't be more of the boxed game, so that is it.
This, a game restricted in supply and sold out in 10 minutes, is the game they pitched at a trade show. That is about as bad a choice as i have seen, and suggests production, or upper management, simply did not inform either marketing, sales or distribution that this was in any way a limited release, which is frankly astonishing in any professionally ran business.
2017/04/06 10:52:52
Subject: Games Workshop - Shadow War Armageddon - sold out already (pg 62)
Vorian wrote: The question was, is Shadow Wars more suitable for a tournament game than 40k.
The answer was regarding Shadow Wars as it is, in the box.
Can you modify it to be a tournament game? Of course. The mechanics are just 2nd edition 40k. You could just play gang fight for each fight and accept that the teams aren't going to be anywhere near balanced.
You could stop advances and injuries and other things that will affect relative strength of players forces between the rounds.
If you want to think that this description means that it is a more tournament friendly game that current 40k then, ok, but I'll be over there will the majority of people playing this as the campaign game it actually is.
and I can't still see how those things can work for a campaign but not for a tournament
or do you/the majority of people play the campaigns without a goal/target/overall winner in the end?
how to you know how the campaign ended or what was the result of the campaign?
if you say there are some scenarios that would determine the winner before the game is played, it need to be removed for a campaign too
if the balance issues are that big that some teams will always win against others, this is a big problem for campaigns too
if game mechanics affect the relative strength between the rounds that much, it is an issue for a campaign too.
so the overall winner for a campaign is determined by choosing the team, how often he wins depends on the scenario, and the team that suffers the first injuries is doomed?
if the answers is no, I see no problem why you cannot play a tournament using the rules out of the box the same way you play a campaign (but just instead playing 2 games a week over 2 months you play do it in 2 days)
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
2017/04/06 10:57:31
Subject: Games Workshop - Shadow War Armageddon - sold out already (pg 62)
Also, we now know there won't be more of the boxed game, so that is it.
This, a game restricted in supply and sold out in 10 minutes, is the game they pitched at a trade show. That is about as bad a choice as i have seen, and suggests production, or upper management, simply did not inform either marketing, sales or distribution that this was in any way a limited release, which is frankly astonishing in any professionally ran business.
Makes me worry about my order with Darksphere....
Reckon Imma give them a ring, make sure all is good. If not, I'll have to head to my local GW Saturday.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Im not sure about that, they seem to make most money off the big display type models, the best selling model of last year, their best year for a while, did not even have any rules.
Out of curiosity what was that?
Smaug I think it was, although it was obviously not done by the most units sold, the most profitable, would have been a better description I think.
Smaug had rules, it's just that he is a bit limiting given he's typically your entire army unless you're playing a decently large game.
2017/04/06 11:12:52
Subject: Games Workshop - Shadow War Armageddon - sold out already (pg 62)
notprop wrote: An SWA/Necromunda tournament. Allow 3hour+ rounds as every cover save is disputed to the Nth degree.
I like this ruleset but it would be horrendous in a comparative and dare I say prize environment.
Why?
It might surprise you but back in the 90's we played tournaments in 2nd edition with cover modifiers, armour penetration rolls using d8,d10,d12 and d20 dice, arcs of fire, overwatch etc etc etc and we actually coped without disputing every roll
2017/04/06 11:17:44
Subject: Games Workshop - Shadow War Armageddon - sold out already (pg 62)
Vorian wrote: The question was, is Shadow Wars more suitable for a tournament game than 40k.
The answer was regarding Shadow Wars as it is, in the box.
Can you modify it to be a tournament game? Of course. The mechanics are just 2nd edition 40k. You could just play gang fight for each fight and accept that the teams aren't going to be anywhere near balanced.
You could stop advances and injuries and other things that will affect relative strength of players forces between the rounds.
If you want to think that this description means that it is a more tournament friendly game that current 40k then, ok, but I'll be over there will the majority of people playing this as the campaign game it actually is.
and I can't still see how those things can work for a campaign but not for a tournament
or do you/the majority of people play the campaigns without a goal/target/overall winner in the end?
how to you know how the campaign ended or what was the result of the campaign?
if you say there are some scenarios that would determine the winner before the game is played, it need to be removed for a campaign too
if the balance issues are that big that some teams will always win against others, this is a big problem for campaigns too
if game mechanics affect the relative strength between the rounds that much, it is an issue for a campaign too.
so the overall winner for a campaign is determined by choosing the team, how often he wins depends on the scenario, and the team that suffers the first injuries is doomed?
if the answers is no, I see no problem why you cannot play a tournament using the rules out of the box the same way you play a campaign (but just instead playing 2 games a week over 2 months you play do it in 2 days)
A campaign doesn't need to be balanced. You can have the little underdog taking on the run away winner. In Necromunda you could easily end up with gangs double the gang rating of each other.
There are mechanisms to try and help - such as the hired guns, or operatives in this (or the guy running the campaign could intervene). The shorter campaign and less potential for advancement should limit it in SW... but the under lying potential for the relative strengths to become askew is still there.
Playing it out of the box has these gangs develop and one game affects the next, which affects the next, etc. The campaign is not fair all the way through, there are big slices of luck
If you're after a tournament of a series of equal games between a group of players to determine who has played the best then, as I said, you're pretty much going to want to just take the 2nd ed rules, the gangs and then play a series of gang fight scenarios against each other.
Since you can modify 40k into a tournament game too, I'm not sure how SW would be better for tournaments than 40k
2017/04/06 11:31:46
Subject: Games Workshop - Shadow War Armageddon - sold out already (pg 62)
H.B.M.C. wrote: People are really wondering if this game should be a tournament game?
It's a campaign game, not a tournament game.
Why not?
Blood Bowl has progression style tournaments, it wouldnt be too hard to come up with a framework for tourney play.
Blood bowl is a pretty controlled environment. You have 1 scenario (the game), you have mechanisms to help lower ranked teams
Necromunda (and shadow wars) will have lopsided games, the scenarios aren't balanced, the gangs aren't balanced. In Necromunda the progression rates will be vastly different.
Name a miniatures wargame where the armies are all balanced, you cant, it doesnt exist.
What is a 'balanced scenario'? Scenarios will always favour some armies over others, faster armies, larger armies, elite armies, someone will have an advantage the key is to balance the scenarios across the whole tourney (same as terrain, some tables dense, some sparse, many in between, balance is key)
SWA actually has a more tourney progression system than BB. In a progression BB tourney a team can easily be matched with a bunny in round 1 and score 6 TD's and skill up alot more than other teams, SWA progression is more controlled which makes it easier to keep teams at a similar level of progression
Wayland Games wrote: This morning we received a message from Games Workshop confirming they would be unable to honour our stock request, stating that "No more box sets will be produced".
Well, for those old enough (in the UK), it makes me feel like this months White Dwarf is the equivalent of Jim Bowen saying "Look at what you could have won"
Currently most played: Silent Death, Mars Code Aurora, Battletech, Warcrow and Infinity.
2017/04/06 11:41:26
Subject: Games Workshop - Shadow War Armageddon - sold out already (pg 62)
H.B.M.C. wrote: People are really wondering if this game should be a tournament game?
It's a campaign game, not a tournament game.
Why not?
Blood Bowl has progression style tournaments, it wouldnt be too hard to come up with a framework for tourney play.
v
Blood bowl is a pretty controlled environment. You have 1 scenario (the game), you have mechanisms to help lower ranked teams
Necromunda (and shadow wars) will have lopsided games, the scenarios aren't balanced, the gangs aren't balanced. In Necromunda the progression rates will be vastly different.
Name a miniatures wargame where the armies are all balanced, you cant, it doesnt exist. .
Huh? That's complete opinion with no way to prove it by facts.
2017/04/06 11:41:56
Subject: Games Workshop - Shadow War Armageddon - sold out already (pg 62)
Now, thoughts on why Shadow War isn't especially suited to Tournament play.
Well, we have to look at the great unspoken downside to Necromunda - far too much of Gang Progression was down to sheer, blind luck.
Yes, I could play well to ensure that my Juves levelled up in double quick time (I usually bought a couple of Hand Flamers for just that). Yes I knew how to use my Vents and Tunnels to best effect.
But that didn't help if you kept rolling up nasty injuries for your guys. Ever had a Heavy lose both eyes and be forcibly retired? I have. Ever lost half your Gang following a single game because of duff injury rolls? I've seen it happen.
Ever seen one gang get a good start, and become all but untouchable? Pretty sure anyone who's played a Necromunda campaign has seen just that - and again that's really not down to player skill - just good luck on the advance table giving good skills out, and injury rolls either meaning no harm done, or beneficial stuff (like extra XP)
Now that never stopped me partaking - but it does make it somewhat unsuited to Tournament play.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Wayland Games wrote: This morning we received a message from Games Workshop confirming they would be unable to honour our stock request, stating that "No more box sets will be produced".
Well, for those old enough (in the UK), it makes me feel like this months White Dwarf is the equivalent of Jim Bowen saying "Look at what you could have won"
That's a shame. My preferred GW discounter is Element Games, and they put it up straight away at 10:00 as not available, so seeing that I went to the GW site for mine while they still had some. One more reason why I'll keep supporting them!
Dead account, no takesy-backsies
2017/04/06 11:48:28
Subject: Games Workshop - Shadow War Armageddon - sold out already (pg 62)
Indeed. Necromunda really is 3D roleplay. I get attached to my gangers like XCom fighters and enjoy telling their stories whether I win or lose. Totally different experience to 40K, though I do enjoy a big battle too, you can't care for every grunt that falls...
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
2017/04/06 11:58:32
Subject: Games Workshop - Shadow War Armageddon - sold out already (pg 62)
kodos wrote: and I can't still see how those things can work for a campaign but not for a tournament
or do you/the majority of people play the campaigns without a goal/target/overall winner in the end?
how to you know how the campaign ended or what was the result of the campaign?
if you say there are some scenarios that would determine the winner before the game is played, it need to be removed for a campaign too
if the balance issues are that big that some teams will always win against others, this is a big problem for campaigns too
if game mechanics affect the relative strength between the rounds that much, it is an issue for a campaign too.
so the overall winner for a campaign is determined by choosing the team, how often he wins depends on the scenario, and the team that suffers the first injuries is doomed?
if the answers is no, I see no problem why you cannot play a tournament using the rules out of the box the same way you play a campaign (but just instead playing 2 games a week over 2 months you play do it in 2 days)
I never played Necromunda with the aim of having a "winner". we played to see what happened. I suppose you could say that whoever had the highest gang rating at the end was a "winner", but none of us cared. The campaign never had an end point, either; I've not played against any of those guys for twenty years, but I still have the roster sheet; I could play again if we wanted.
As for unbalanced scenarios, there were plenty. I used to invent my own "victory conditions"; "OK, so I'm probably going to lose, but if I manage to get that ganger with Marksman that took out my Gang leader last game before I bottle out, that'll do". Or play Gunfighter, where you only have three models (chosen at random) on the table anyway. Or we'd gang up, 2 on 1.
I played in a tournament in GW using the Underhive edition rules. I won before any games were played, because I rolled three Archeotech Hoards as territories. In a campaign that would be an advantage, but not overwhelming because you wouldn't want to wear it out (you rolled between 2 and 6D6 *10 for the income from it; if you rolled a double, it was exhausted and became a Slag Heap worth 10 creds). In this tournament, with four games, I rolled 18D6 x 10 credits (plus my other two territories) and spent the windfall on power weapons and new recruits. The winning condition was the greatest increase in gang rating over four games, so I blew the other players out the water, despite having a record of something like 2 wins, 2 losses.
A year ago, four of us played an Inquisimunda campaign over the course of a day. Each of us had an Inquisitor investigating rumours of a xenos conspiracy. Two warbands fought over objectives representing clues, while being surprised by Necron Warrior sentries. Another two had to rescue the governor (it was a race between the two players) who was being attacked by Warriors and Flayed Ones. At the end, we all took part in a large game to penetrate the Necron Lord's underground base. That was a race to get to the Lord first to gain reputation for our Inquisitors, but in the end we all got massacred by Immortals.
That's how I'd run a Shadow War campaign - with a story, not just to find a "winner".
2017/04/06 12:14:18
Subject: Games Workshop - Shadow War Armageddon - sold out already (pg 62)
That was essentially Games Workshops mission statement for the past 10 years and it saw their share price plummet. They failed to understand, as you do, that for a lot of people the models are just an accessory for the rules.
Very recently, they've started realising that the "Games" in Games Workshop actually has a meaning for some people. They've started listening to their user base and producing more friendly games which are easier to get into and are easier to play. I accept that anecotal evidence is just that and it's impossible for us to say how many buy the models for the game and how many buy the games for the models but, since they started putting out better rulesets their stock price has soared. That itself carries some weight as far as evidence goes.
Im not sure about that, they seem to make most money off the big display type models, the best selling model of last year, their best year for a while, did not even have any rules.
Smaug has rules and even special scenarios where you use him.