Song of Ice & Fire Minatures Game by CMON - KS successful (pg 19)

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**Theophony**

judgedoug wrote:
frankelee wrote:
DrNo172000 wrote:
frankelee wrote:
If CMON had the wisdom of the crowds to tell them nobody plays miniature wargames they wouldn't have bothered. It's beyond all debate that they assumed this game would be far larger than it is. Why this is so hard to accept as an objective fact, who knows? Why are people willing to buy minis from Kickstarters with no rules more than they are this game? Can't figure out to do with the rulebook and it frightens them, probably.

For my part I don't view this KS as a failure, but it's probably 3 to 5 million dollars lighter than CMON was expecting. And given that top miniature games like 40K, X-Wing, and Armada individually make more money than CMON does with everything it sells, I don't think their expectations were unreasonable.

You got any sources for that hyperbole or those "objective" facts just based on your feelings?

Do you have an intelligent question for me, or are you just a whining fanboy? Also, if you're not smart enough to go look at the campaign and see how it was run, then you're not smart enough to understand my explanation anyway. It's quite a catch-22 you put people who know what they're talking about in.

This is amazing - when four logical fallacies are questioned about being hyperbole, they are answered with another logical fallacy.

Wait. He said it was beyond debate.

Who do we think we are to question someone stating incontrovertible FACT online in an opinion forum.

For shame! I tells ya. FOR SHAME

**RiTides**

Let's avoid namecalling / back and forth, please - Rule #1 on Dakka is "be polite".

Back to the topic of this thread - thanks all.

**DaveC**

Anyway..... mounted Blackfish is unlocked

Next up The mounted Mountain @$1,550k

**BobtheInquisitor**

I wonder if the campaign would have been more successful if the last SoIaF book was actually any good.

**RiTides**

Comparing those two horses is pretty funny

. I guess that's what it takes to hold up "The Mountain"!

**DaveC**

RiTides wrote:
Comparing those two horses is pretty funny . I guess that's what it takes to hold up "The Mountain"!

oh I forgot the side by side

given the Mountain is 8 feet tall it would take some horse to carry him in full armour. The horse is probably a little too big - I think someone hasn't scaled the side by side image properly or else the Blackfish is child sized!

**BobtheInquisitor**

Wow that blackfish mini is conventional.

**Pacific**

You're on fine form tonight Bob, jumping between this thread (or should I say 'stage') and the Mierce one, dropping little snide comments as you go!

**Morghot**

DaveC wrote:
RiTides wrote:
Comparing those two horses is pretty funny . I guess that's what it takes to hold up "The Mountain"!

oh I forgot the side by side

given the Mountain is 8 feet tall it would take some horse to carry him in full armour. The horse is probably a little too big - I think someone hasn't scaled the side by side image properly or else the Blackfish is child sized!

Yep let's hope this, this mounted mountain and the last hodor shown both are not correctly size in comparison to others!

**JohnHwangDD**

judgedoug wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
An uber-Ameritrash Machiavelli-based "GoT"-branded game with boatloads of minis on a oversized deluxe printed board and cards for orders? Yes, yes it would. Easily.

So it would be competing against FFG's Game of Thrones which is literally what you are asking for, sans minis.

Did you not read what you previously quoted from me?

Here, I'll quote myself:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
I wasn't aware of the FFG game. It looks great, aside from the total lack of miniatures! Throw a couple hundred bases of multi-based 5-8mm miniatures on the map, and it's a winner.

On KS, miniatures boardgames do significantly better than non-miniatures boardgames. CMoN does among the best miniatures boardgames on KS. CMoN's well-established Zombicide pulled $4M and $5M. CMoN doing a GoT miniatures boardgame would pull $5M+, notwithstanding the existence of FFG's GoT game.

**Aeneades**

I am sure that if CMON had been allowed to develop a Song of Ice and Fire miniature board game then they would have done that instead and pulled in a record amount on Kickstarter but the licence they have is restricted to war games.

CMON would have hoped that this project went better but given that it's a rank and file miniature wargame I think it did about as well as it possibly could have. A skirmish in the style of Deadzone or Mordheim would have pulled in quite a bit more I think but wouldn't have been true to the source material.

Thiago was also a real boast here as he managed to revitalise the project when he came back from paternity leave.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
For one final time, here is what the base level contains -

There is one final stretch goal outstanding -

And here are the additional purchases (most of those units already appear in the base game) -

**JohnHwangDD**

Wait, where's Drogon?

**griffen127**

Well this is now he highest funded mintiures game in KS history. I don't understand why people say this is a failure. For what this is it's done very well.

**Alpharius**

It's a 'failure' only in so much as we're making the assumption that this *could* have made 2x or 3x more than it is?

I'm not sure why we had this expectation, but...we did!

I *think* it is same to assume (uh oh!) that CMON thought so too - at least, that's what some of my sources are hinting at.

Combine all that with the somewhat slow (debatable!) start this got off to, and with how long it took to break $1M and...here we are!

Glad to see that a certain other campaign has now been knocked off of the 'highest ever funded wargame' pedestal though - so I'm grateful to this campaign for that, if nothing else!

**JohnHwangDD**

griffen127 wrote:
Well this is now he highest funded mintiures game in KS history.

I don't understand why people say this is a failure. For what this is it's done very well.

Kingdom Death : Monster 1.5 is the highest funded miniatures game in KS history.

If the goal was to reach $5M, and it only reaches $1.5M, that is a failure. That's why I brought up DC's Crazy Steve vs Space Jesus - it was budgeted and marketed with plan to pull well over $1.5 Billion globally (like the Avengers), but didn't evem make $1 Billion, so it's a failure. Now, had it been budgeted like Deadpool (<$60M production budget), then a $800 Million gross would be a huge success.

**Aeneades**

Sounds like there is more to come in the Kickstarter with a little over 2 hours to go (plus an update on what the licence covers and the games future) -

Hi everyone -
Jim from Dark Sword Miniatures here.
Wow - AWESOME job on crushing all of the stretch goals that Michael of House Bolton (Michael Bolton for short..), Thiago and team have lined up for you all to date. Lets rally for that Iron Throne stretch goal. Lets see what could possibly be revealed beyond $1.6 Million..
To answer a couple questions I see pop up from time to time -
1. Dark Sword Miniatures has the license for all things SOIAF - current timeline and going back into deep historical events too. With that being said - right now, we are keeping the focus of this tabletop miniatures game on the current timeline as there is just so much amazing content to bring into the game for it (so many factions!). What you are seeing with this Kickstarter project is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg. And on that note...
2. The amount of up front work done on this project to date is mind boggling. You are just seeing the tip of the proverbial iceberg (and it is a massive tip of the iceberg at that) on what has already been created (art and sculpts) thus far. It is very hard for me to not blurt out all of the awesome other things you have not seen yet but will see in the 2018 and beyond for this tabletop miniatures game. It has to be even harder for Michael, Thiago and crew to not show you all of the additional amazing sculpts for new factions you have been asking to see. But we have to hold the line and keep the focus on this starter set and all of the awesomeness it entails to kick things off - as it had to be Starks vs. Lannisters for the initial splash as those two are the most well known houses with fans of the book series. Rest assured - tons more stuff is on its way as well.
The "backer value" for the Hand of the Kind pledge is simply off the charts in terms of what you are getting. And that plastic terrain is amazing. George was super excited when we told him about the terrain pieces he can eventually use in his miniature dioramas there at his offices. He loved all of the sculpts we showed him when we were there onsite as well. We had a great time just geeking out over all of the miniature awesomeness you are seeing here in this project (and a bunch of stuff no one has seen yet..of course..).
I am so excited to play this game with my gaming buddies once they have their backer rewards in hand. It got old thumping Michael of House Bolton during some playtest sessions there at CMON HQ.. Smacked him and his Lannister flunkies around pretty good there (took 2 games out of three - only lost the first game barely as I was getting up to speed on some of the specific rules he explained to me). Plus I could not get the Michael Bolton Greatest Hits CD fired up until the second game. Maybe that had something to do with it as well?
So long story long - buckle up, as this Kickstarter project is just the start of an awesome and wild ride in Westeros folks..
And for those of you attending Gen Con Indy, please make Michael of House Bolton sing you some classic Michael Bolton songs while there demoing the game (he is quite the crooner Michael is..and he loves him some Bolton..). I know I will be..
Onward to victory!
Jim
Dark Sword Miniatures

**Alpharius**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
griffen127 wrote:
Well this is now he highest funded mintiures game in KS history.

I don't understand why people say this is a failure. For what this is it's done very well.

Kingdom Death : Monster 1.5 is the highest funded miniatures game in KS history.

I think he meant miniature 'wargame'?

At least, that's what I was going off of here.

**Aeneades**

**griffen127**

Ok. Who said they where shooting for 5 million? Is that just some number a group of wishful thinkers came up with? I get board games have a ton more people to draw from as such they make more money. But as a miniatures war game it is a impressive thing to be the highest funded KS.

**BobtheInquisitor**

Pacific wrote:
You're on fine form tonight Bob, jumping between this thread (or should I say 'stage') and the Mierce one, dropping little snide comments as you go!

I wasn't even being snide. I am in awe of the accomplishment. I joined this campaign after the fish armor guys and the chaosy knights, and then bam! There he was.

Producer: I want a hero on a horse with a sword.
Artist: Great. I've got the blank right here ready to go. So, what style do you want?

P: Style?

Artist: yeah, what details or proportions would you like me to use to make the hero distinctive? Heroic? Anime proportions? Skulls? Ribbons? Spikes? Wings? Runes?

P: No, no, no. None of that.

Artist: none? What about distinctive armor? Huge pauldrons? Filigree? A flamboyant pose? Non-European ethnicity? Specific period clothing? Ironic expression?

P: no. Too much. Pull back.

Artist: you mean a Campbellian archetype? A neutral faced audience-insert everyman? An abstraction?

P: You're overthinking this. I want a hero. On a horse. With a sword.

Artist: .....Ok.

**Alpharius**

griffen127 wrote:
Ok. Who said they where shooting for 5 million?

No one?

At least, not that I've seen?

griffen127 wrote:

Is that just some number a group of wishful thinkers came up with?

Yes, that's it!

We're just spitballin' here - discussing what might have, could have, should have been!

**Rayvon**

griffen127 wrote:
Ok. Who said they where shooting for 5 million? Is that just some number a group of wishful thinkers came up with? I get board games have a ton more people to draw from as such they make more money. But as a miniatures war game it is a impressive thing to be the highest funded KS.

Yep, certainly not a failure, I just got in at the end, seems like good value as long as the sculpts turn out well.

**griffen127**

Well at 200 a person it would take 25000 backers to make 5 million. That just seems silly for a mini war game on KS. Just the mini for the base price is what 96 cents per(ish). That asumes everything else is free. It's a good deal and a good campaign. IMO. I hope it's a good game as well. I feel like a skirmish sub game would be fantastic.

**Aeneades**

Final total is $1,690,466 with Brianne unlocked. I think there may be more funds added to the pledge manager than in other campaigns.

I did go back on forth on whether to pledge a few times as I am not part of a local gaming club so not sure I will ever get it played but happy enough with the miniatures alone.

And finally, the next campaign they aren't running is something I am not interested in.

Let's this see if this image works -

Sneak peak at some of the retail exclusive units with pyromancers for the Lannisters, Bolton heavy infantry for the mercs and a new House Umber unit for the Starks.

**RiTides**

Those retail exclusives look great - and honestly to have raised 1.7M without even putting out some of their cooler units is pretty darn impressive! We'll see if the choice to hold off on these units pays off in the long run - I think it's impossible to know right now, as a lot will depend on things we'll find out next year.

(Like how the sculpts really look, and how the game plays and gets picked up with the boost of Organized Play, etc)

I'd love to see it do well, so here's hoping the fulfillment really blows people away!

**judgedoug**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
On KS, miniatures boardgames do significantly better than non-miniatures boardgames. CMoN does among the best miniatures boardgames on KS. CMoN's well-established Zombicide pulled $4M and $5M. CMoN doing a GoT miniatures boardgame would pull $5M+, notwithstanding the existence of FFG's GoT game.

Can you provide any source that did any market research into these numbers you've literally pulled directly out of nowhere?

Are you the source of "5 million dollars"? Are you the source of the market research that indicates that if CMON had made, well, something entirely different, it would have made more?

I would argue that if CMON made a A Song of Ice and Fire reskin of Settlers of Catan with little plastic 8mm (seriously, 8mm?) miniatures then it would have made 50 MILLION dollars because Catan is super popular, moreso than a redux of Diplomacy or a clone of FFG's pre-existing game (except with 8mm miniatures for some reason). This is 100% as accurate as your numbers as well - as in, it is entirely false and based on no market research or data other than a desire to be right on the internet.

But because CMON chose to make a miniatures wargame that is wildly successful, moreso than 99% of all other miniatures wargames on kickstarter, and funded an insane amount of minis, it's a... failure... for some... reason.... that can't quite be expressed with actual data....

**Aeneades**

To state again, CMON only had the licence to make a song of ice and fire miniature war game. FFG have the exclusive rights to make Song of ice and fire board games. I am sure CMON would have made a board game if they could have but that wasn't an option.

**JohnHwangDD**

judgedoug wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
On KS, miniatures boardgames do significantly better than non-miniatures boardgames. CMoN does among the best miniatures boardgames on KS. CMoN's well-established Zombicide pulled $4M and $5M. CMoN doing a GoT miniatures boardgame would pull $5M+, notwithstanding the existence of FFG's GoT game.

Can you provide any source that did any market research into these numbers you've literally pulled directly out of nowhere?

CMoN's last KS was $5M. The information is all readily available, so you can check it for yourself.

**RiTides**

That's enough on the "expectations" tangent, please - the point's made on all sides.

Thanks all

**BobtheInquisitor**

It looks like all the best minis were left out of the core pledge, excepting characters. What are the odds the prices will remain so high at retail?