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 Marmatag wrote:
LVO breakdown.
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/02/04/las-vegas-open-40k-champs-faction-breakdown/

If you lump "Space Marines" to include all MEQ based armies (Chaos Space Marines, Space Wolves, etc) regardless of fluff, then yeah, there's a lot of MEQ.

Why wouldn't you include Chaos Space Marines as Space Marines? It's in the name. They're Space Marines with Chaos added in. Thus, "Chaos" Space Marines.

Space Wolves are also Space Marines. Blood Angels are also Space Marines. So are Salamanders, and Dark Angels, and any of the other chaos legions and loyalist chapters. It's not about MEQ. MEQ includes more than Marines, that's even what it means-- "Marine EQuivalent". It's not about a 3+ save. Not just Space Marines get a 3+ save.

Chaos Space Marines are not "MEQ". They ARE Space Marines.

 Marmatag wrote:
When people say they're sick of space marines, are they sick of 3+ saves, or what, specifically?

Everyone I know plays SM almost identically. Vanilla marines it's pod spam (usually the formation I forget the name of right now), gladius, smashfether with heavy support (TFC and devs), or generic "tacs/devs/vets". SW it's TWC spam with min everything else or pod spam. DA it's lion's blade or RW 2+++ spam. Never see blood angels or GK.

After awhile you get sick of net list deathstars, razorback spam, or pod spam, and the CADs are always generic; I never see scouts, bikes, terminators, speeders, or tanks. It's always tacs, devs, vets, and maybe assault marines, that's it.

Other factions might not use varied lists either, it's just that you only see them once in a blue moon where half of your games are against the same marine lists.

" I never see scouts, bikes, terminators, speeders, or tanks"

My BA lists use scouts, bikes, speeders and tanks. Just not terminators. Although I'm building an OIF list.

I also have the tacs, devs, assault marines, DC, and sanguinary guard used in lists. I have full mech list, and a list with zero mech. My opponent never actually know how many deep strikers my BA will have, if any. The mech list for example has zero deep striking. My Lost brotherhood list has only a single deepstriking DC dread. (It also has an IK).

Martel732 wrote:
" I never see scouts, bikes, terminators, speeders, or tanks"

My BA lists use scouts, bikes, speeders and tanks. Just not terminators. Although I'm building an OIF list.

Sadly not at my store, so can't use you as an example. This was "I personally never see", which is why I'm saying I personally don't like the generic marine lists I always see.

The long time players at my store know how to stomp BA good. Although it's gotten a BIT harder. Many people not used to the ways of BA can be completely unprepared for the speed.

space marines are one of the most popular armies, always have been they're regularly supported (which is huge) their codex is great right now with a multitude of choices (most armies are lucky even to have ONE really good tourny build, space marines can proably manage a few) there are a wide varity of decent units in space marines so generally you don't feel oibligated to mono build. (thanks to the gladius even an army consisting of basic tac marines can be effective) in short space marines are popular because not only are they the posterboy, but they're in a really good place and would proably be popular even without it. GW should aspire to make all armies like space marines, with a solid mix of units and detachments that work nicely for them, as well as a distinct ability to give them some identity with chapter tactics. IMHO GW's brought CSM up semi close to that level, but some army books really need a revision to bring em up. imperial guard comes to mind

I have more of a problem with constant IoMvIoM battles than facing/playing Space Marines. I know Imperial faction infighting happens but it gets old.

 Kain wrote:
I'm just wondering how not one, but two people played an assassins list.

As for the MEQ armies, it has to do with how basically you're receiving mostly the same kinds of shooting with some exceptions and are killing largely the same kinds of models. MEQs are really, really samey across the MEQ armies in terms of the firepower they tend to bring and their resilience to enemy fire. Whereas GEQs are generally speaking, an awful lot more varied (while Boyz, Guardsmen, Guardians, and Gants/Termagaunts are all labeled under GEQs; they're far more different than Chaos Space marines, Tacticals, and Grey Hunters are with power armored grey knights being perhaps the most divergent.)

Off topic: A guy at my club played OSC tau + double assassin execution force, after hearing the recaps it seemed to make for some fun games

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I have more of a problem with constant IoMvIoM battles than facing/playing Space Marines. I know Imperial faction infighting happens but it gets old.

just lpretend it's alpha legion.

 Melissia wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
LVO breakdown.
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/02/04/las-vegas-open-40k-champs-faction-breakdown/

If you lump "Space Marines" to include all MEQ based armies (Chaos Space Marines, Space Wolves, etc) regardless of fluff, then yeah, there's a lot of MEQ.

Why wouldn't you include Chaos Space Marines as Space Marines? It's in the name. They're Space Marines with Chaos added in. Thus, "Chaos" Space Marines.

Space Wolves are also Space Marines. Blood Angels are also Space Marines. So are Salamanders, and Dark Angels, and any of the other chaos legions and loyalist chapters. It's not about MEQ. MEQ includes more than Marines, that's even what it means-- "Marine EQuivalent". It's not about a 3+ save. Not just Space Marines get a 3+ save.

Chaos Space Marines are not "MEQ". They ARE Space Marines.

There's a difference between Space Marines, and "Faction: Space Marines." This is the distinction i'm asking about.

Because it's a fundamentally different meta if you have:
1x Chaos Space Marine player
1x Grey Knights player
1x Blood Angels player
1x Space Wolves player

versus
4x Codex Space Marines players

And hey, saying that former marines who succumbed to the touch of chaos are Adeptus Astartes in good standing, is HERESY. Burn the witch!

But seriously, my question was directed towards the people experiencing this issue, to better understand what's going on. I fully understand everything you went through great lengths, bolding, underlining, to explain, but thank you for your effort

But they're all space marines in the end. And if that's all you see on the board every week, it gets pretty bland and repetitive.

No one is saying all Space Marines are equally competitive. Just that they're all, well... Space Marines. And Space Marines just aren't that interesting to see every week. Space Marines are most interesting in contrast to their opponents. And if all you see is Space Marines fighting Space Marines, it's just dull, no matter if one space marine is red and the next one is blue.

BrianDavion wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I have more of a problem with constant IoMvIoM battles than facing/playing Space Marines. I know Imperial faction infighting happens but it gets old.

just lpretend it's alpha legion.

I got some Inquisition bits (servo-skulls, cherubs and the like) in a bits box off of ebay. I was thinking about making an Istaanvanian Inquisitor named Generica Plot-Device. In any IoM vs IoM battle Generica could be subbed in for an existing unit or the other player could add a similar number of points. (Only if both players liked the idea, of course.) Or we could just set her up on some observation point as part of the scenery.

 Melissia wrote:
But they're all space marines in the end. And if that's all you see on the board every week, it gets pretty bland and repetitive.

No one is saying all Space Marines are equally competitive. Just that they're all, well... Space Marines. And Space Marines just aren't that interesting to see every week. Space Marines are most interesting in contrast to their opponents. And if all you see is Space Marines fighting Space Marines, it's just dull, no matter if one space marine is red and the next one is blue.

Well said

I think there is a natural tendency to lump all the various types of an army you don't care for together while seeing the various flavors of your favorite armies as highly distinct. Space Marine players see each chapter of Marines as highly distinct armies, while non-Marine players see them as just slightly different flavors of the same basic thing.

I've seen some people wonder why Astra Militarum players want more support for different regiments. They express sentiments along the lines of 'they're all just humans with lasguns, right? What more do you need?' which is infuriating to IG players.

Space Marines do tend to get way more books and units. This is partly because Space Marines are so cool, which makes them popular. However, if Tallarns and Mordians got as many supplemental books and units specific to them as Space Wolves and Blood Angels I think they would be a lot more popular. That's just a guess.

I got really annoyed that DKoK made Mordians look weak

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
Space Marine players see each chapter of Marines as highly distinct armies

Most Space Marine players are able to at least see that the various flavors of Space Marines are, though different still Space Marines in the end, and get bored playing exclusively against them.

Since a lot of the people complaining about sameness are, themselves, marine players. And they get EXCITED whenever a Guard or Ork or Tyranid army shows up, because OH MAN gak'S GONNA GET FUN AGAIN! Because however different you'd like to think your blue Space Marines are from someone else's green Space Marines and that other guy's spiky Space Marines, you all know deep down inside that they're really not as different from each other as they are from other factions.

GodDamUser wrote:
I got really annoyed that DKoK made Mordians look weak

Uh?

 Melissia wrote:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
Space Marine players see each chapter of Marines as highly distinct armies

Most Space Marine players are able to at least see that the various flavors of Space Marines are, though different still Space Marines in the end, and get bored playing exclusively against them.

Since a lot of the people complaining about sameness are, themselves, marine players. And they get EXCITED whenever a Guard or Ork or Tyranid army shows up, because OH MAN gak'S GONNA GET FUN AGAIN! Because however different you'd like to think your blue Space Marines are from someone else's green Space Marines and that other guy's spiky Space Marines, you all know deep down inside that they're really not as different from each other as they are from other factions.

Until it turns out that those armies get tabled almost instantly because they're terribly weak and left horribly neglected in favour of creating more content for other Space Marine armies instead.

 Bobthehero wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:
I got really annoyed that DKoK made Mordians look weak

Uh?

Just a silly thing.. before DKoK the Mordians were pretty much the most willing to lay down their lives without a care kinda thing..
But DKoK just do it so much better =D

Do remember reading one bit (from old gav) regiment of Mordian are marching along a road and they get strafed by air fire, but as the officers are taken out first they keep marching as they haven't been ordered to break formation, and they just keep marching as they are getting mowed down.

DKoK are just not silly =D

 Kain wrote:
I'm just wondering how not one, but two people played an assassins list.

 Melissia wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
LVO breakdown.
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/02/04/las-vegas-open-40k-champs-faction-breakdown/

If you lump "Space Marines" to include all MEQ based armies (Chaos Space Marines, Space Wolves, etc) regardless of fluff, then yeah, there's a lot of MEQ.

Why wouldn't you include Chaos Space Marines as Space Marines? It's in the name. They're Space Marines with Chaos added in. Thus, "Chaos" Space Marines.

Space Wolves are also Space Marines. Blood Angels are also Space Marines. So are Salamanders, and Dark Angels, and any of the other chaos legions and loyalist chapters. It's not about MEQ. MEQ includes more than Marines, that's even what it means-- "Marine EQuivalent". It's not about a 3+ save. Not just Space Marines get a 3+ save.

Chaos Space Marines are not "MEQ". They ARE Space Marines.

Maybe in the fluff, but BA and CSM don't hold a candle to the kind of strength C:SM bring to the table. While BA and CSM are SM, they have wildly different unit types and are categorically weaker than SM. SW are SM, but they are so much different with all kinds of different units and capabilities. If I deploy my IG or DE and see who I'm lining up against, I will have very different reactions between SM, BA, CSM, and SW.

really the only thing the space marine factions have in common is the stat line on their basic troops.

BrianDavion wrote:
really the only thing the space marine factions have in common is the stat line on their basic troops.

Depends on what you mean by 'Space Marine factions'. If you take the 'Adeptus Astartes' label GW slaps on things to be relevant then yes, that's the only thing they've got in common (beyond storm bolters, Rhinos, and Land Raiders).

If you instead take 'Space Marine faction' to mean 'Codex descended from the First Founding Legions' (excluding the GK and the Deathwatch) they're mostly reskins; the formations change, the motor pool is slightly different, certain units get more or fewer special rules, but the units are the same, the organizational theory is the same, the armoury is the same, the models are virtually interchangeable...

(Personally I'd like to see a Space Marine book organized like the 3e CSM book or the Legion list, where you have one 'Space Marine' army list and a dozen appendixes describing how to add variant rules/units in for other Chapters.)

Yeah no matter what a Spacemarine is a Spacemarine...

And with Successor Chapters and such, you can easily say today I am using said chapter tactic or variant Spacemarine codex because except for a few units.. it is all pretty much compatible

I play Blood Angels. I like them. A lot. If you ask me to play I will put Blood Angels on the table. To me they are quite different than other Space Marines. If my army choice bothers you, well then that's your problem. A few people over the years have tried to shame me because I play Blood Angels. People should play the armies they want to play. It takes a lot of time, energy, and money to build a 40k army. I shouldn't have to defend my choice. If you don't like my army, don't ask me to play.

I've been told facing BA is more like facing speed freaks or DE than other marine lists. Yeah, they have 3+ armor, ATSKNF, and that's about it. They don't even have chapter tactics.

Martel732 wrote:
They don't even have chapter tactics.

Except for everyone having furious charge.

Yeah, the same ability Orks have lol.

They also have alot of jump pack-ey, melee formations. A death company army is definitely very orky in how shock-heavy it is: given furious charge, rage, and effectively shred and hatred on the charge (chaplain) theyre about four times as dedtructive as in a "normal" assault phase...

Ultimately, "oh, they're just marines" is no more valid than any sweeping generalization. You might as well say necrons are just marines with feel no pain.

You can make a "marine" army thats based on shock jump units, one thats made up completely of tanks, or one that uses marines only as command characters and primarily consists of chaos cultists. All of these armies play totally differently to each other.

I understand getting frustrated with a specific army list (oh, look, its an iron hands gladius again) but thats an issue with people who will slavishly take that-good-list-off-the-internet rather than give a crap about the setting or their army. We have one at our club, whose army is characterised by heraldry-less (squad markings only) khaki marines so he can (he is quite open about this) count them as whatever chapter or legion has the best rules at any given moment, and I'd rather eat my army model-by-model than play a game against him.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Sounds like weeboos to me. Space marines are about 80% of the content in this game so if you don't like space marines - you are playing the wrong game IMO.

Need a little more details about this problem. Is it your lists maybe? Too strong? Is it too weak? Are they playing an army that relies on fear? I don't know man. Space marines are always fun to play against for me.

^Gosh, I wonder why people are sick and tired of space marines. It couldn't be the fact that multiple factions are sitting around with 3rd and even 2nd edition basic troop boxes while Space Marines now have three different brand new tactical squad boxes to choose from. It couldn't be that if the space marine player base isn't complaining that one of their 7 separate codexes isn't top-tier they're complaining that one of the non-marine factions is getting too much attention/is overpowered/doesn't belong in the game/all of the above.

People get sick of marines because everyone plays them, for the most part the lists are basic netlist copypastas, and GW has been cramming them down everyone's throats continuously for the past few decades.

GodDamUser wrote:
Yeah no matter what a Spacemarine is a Spacemarine...

And with Successor Chapters and such, you can easily say today I am using said chapter tactic or variant Spacemarine codex because except for a few units.. it is all pretty much compatible

Exactly. Sometimes its blue, sometimes its red, sometimes its green and sometimes its a furry, but in the end its just another marine.