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The joining up of two rulers seems like it could be a problem in 3d too. Maybe they link together or something, I'll wait to see how it actually works

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
The Nora model looks rad.

Is the pre-order still planned for later this month?

Preorders slipped back to August.

Thanks, that's good to know.

So either a tape measure and some numbers or fiddling with at least four different rulers that you then have to combine to get longer ranges? Yeah, that's the opposite of simple and user friendly. Especially once you add intervening models and terrain.

I hope the fine folks at Modiphius at least had the good sense to cut their rulers to whole numbers in inches or centimeters to make conversion easy.

You know what would be even better than random symbols to help color blind people? Replace them with the actual length of the respective ruler. That helps everyone. Oh, just in case you think I'm kidding or making fun of some people, I'm all for helping people with, what's the euphemism these days, physical barriers? Some of us have notable tremors to put up with, so fiddling with some rulers is not something I'm looking forward to.

On a more positive note, I have nothing against including those rulers per se. It's great for people who like that system. It's great for newcomers who don't own a tape measure. But I fail to see the use of bogus symbols to denote their function in addition to their color when instead you could add useful information that does exactly the same job and then some.

Nora looks good, though.

Hopefully the chap reading this from Modiphius will clarify at some point! It's far from a deal breaker, but would be nice to know.

Am definitely looking forward though to something that can just be pre-ordered for the shorter term, rather than a Kickstarter. It's essentially impossible to maintain a level of excitement for 12-18 months after the end of a KS until you get your hands on the stuff

Agreed on both points. No single thing is a deal breaker for me, except bad models or horrible pricing, neither of which I am worried about. I'm in it for the models most of all anyway. But I wouldn't mind having a good ruleset out of the box on top of that.

The way my projects move, I can't really get excited about kickstarters because I have so many ideas and by the time they fulfill (if they do...), I've moved on to something else. The time until the release for Fallout is bad enough. Good thing I have thematically fitting projects to tide me over, especially post-apocalyptic scenery.

Psychopomp wrote:
The description of how the measuring sticks work from the blog is the first bit of this game that I'm not so happy with. I'm not sure how laying down two different colored sticks end to end for long range shots is supposed to somehow be easier and more intuitive than pulling a tape measure out to an indicated number.

It seems to me like the color-coding and necessity of extra fiddly-bits is going to end up being more confusing than just listing a few extra numbers on the stat card that they claim they want to avoid. If there are already numbers (for the SPECIAL stats) then adding a completely separate color-code system for range ADDS complexity, not reduces it.

The range sticks will have inch increments on them and they are 2inch different in length to each other so it will be easy just to use a tape measure if you prefer. The point though is once you start thinking in colours it's very quick to measure distances and ranges, it's one less number that has to pass through your mind which over longer games does have an impact.

For people just wanting to check distances with a tape measure it's going to be simple as each stick is a set length in inches and will be marked. I'm an old school wargame so trust me when I say I want to make this accessible to everyone. The goal with this is to speed the basic tasks up so you can have more fun games.

Paradigm wrote:It's all 'short/medium/long' range rather than measurements, hence the X-wing comparison. Though what I don't get is why they're designed to be placed end to end to determine the range rather than just denoting which part of, say, the Medium stick also constitutes Short range. That seems a less clunky/accident-prone way of doing it.

This means colour coding ranges is easy - but nothing stops you from just measuring the distance with a tape measure but having tried it I'll take quick colour references anytime.

Nostromodamus wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
It's all 'short/medium/long' range rather than measurements, hence the X-wing comparison. Though what I don't get is why they're designed to be placed end to end to determine the range rather than just denoting which part of, say, the Medium stick also constitutes Short range. That seems a less clunky/accident-prone way of doing it.

I'm assuming so you can have different combinations, for example one gun might have red/yellow bands while another might have red/blue bands.

Yes exactly - Fallout has wonderful combinations of weapons and this will let us have lots of quick easy combos.

Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:The Nora model looks rad.

Is the pre-order still planned for later this month?

Aiming for early august :-)

Sooo...

shooting procedure:-
1: nominate shooter
2: nominate target
3: lay down short range measuring stick
4: lay down medium range measuring stick
5: lay down long range measuring stick
6a: discover target is out of range - move on to another model OR
6b: determine penalties/bonuses to hit and make attack

something like that?

what about:-
- models on high terrain?
- low-level intervening terrain that gets in they way of the measuring sticks?



Cheers

MarkNorfolk wrote:
Sooo...

shooting procedure:-
1: nominate shooter
2: nominate target
3: lay down short range measuring stick
4: lay down medium range measuring stick
5: lay down long range measuring stick
6a: discover target is out of range - move on to another model OR
6b: determine penalties/bonuses to hit and make attack

something like that?

what about:-
- models on high terrain?
- low-level intervening terrain that gets in they way of the measuring sticks?

Pretty much correct on the shooting, but there is no long range, and you tend not to need to lay the sticks down unless its a really close measurement. Usually, you can see if a shot is short range or long range using only one stick, and the game is quite up close and personal so its pretty obvious where a shot lies at the moment.

We are pretty deep in play testing (obviously) and I can honestly say that the sticks are not a huge issue, beyond some back and forth on movement. Of course, we are also testing with using a tape measure to see what difference it makes, I favour the sticks currently, while our new playtester reached straight for the tape measure.

For models on high terrain you would currently measure base to base, taking the diagonal in to account.
For low level intervening terrain, you would measure this in the same way as if you used a tape measure, both would run the risk of being blocked by intervening terrain and you would approach it sensibly.

Its interesting that the sticks have proved slightly divisive, we started using pre set measuring sticks in set divisions for Warmachine a few years ago and it massively sped up certain aspects of the game. But, its likely you can use the tape measure instead of the pre set rods if that's your thing, like I say, the new playtester immediately started doing exactly that and it hasn't lead to any major issue so far (beyond the one or two things we immediately highlight for review).

Thanks for the response. I always look askance at games that employ some custom measurement system. (I really like SAGA, but come on - what's with the stupid sticks). The most intuitive way to measure something is to use an internationally recognized, well established method of measuring. Something that'll appear on school rulers for example.

 JonWebb wrote:
Its interesting that the sticks have proved slightly divisive...

I'll give up my tape measure when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MarkNorfolk wrote:
Thanks for the response. I always look askance at games that employ some custom measurement system. (I really like SAGA, but come on - what's with the stupid sticks). The most intuitive way to measure something is to use an internationally recognized, well established method of measuring. Something that'll appear on school rulers for example.

+1

Science! and international standards over gimmicks all the way.

I like measuring stick gimmicks and will be happy to use color-coded measuring sticks in FO.

Of all the things that are done in the name of 'speeding things up', I don't think I've ever come across the 'tape measure' as being a time sink.

I could just be stuck on my old ways, but I do rather like it, and I do not like an excessive amount of 'necessary but custom components'.

Custom dice being one of the bigger offenders there.

I still really like custom dice, especially for symbol matching/canceling type mechanics. FO seems more of a numbers game than a symbols game, however, so maybe custom dice would stick out a bit here.

Agreed. But it does open further retail opportunities with those deluxe acrylic sticks that you must have. Official ones only allowed, of course.

I am being tongue-in-cheek here, mostly. Modiphius have put out some good stuff. They brought out the Thunderbirds co-operative board game which gives them loads of goodwill from me.

And there are worse games companies to copy than Fantasy Flight Games.

the biggest issue I've had with tape measures is people using huge joinery ones with the metal tape which the flail all over the table with putting the minis and scenery at risk.....

another plus point for nice short custom measuring sticks

MarkNorfolk wrote:
Agreed. But it does open further retail opportunities with those deluxe acrylic sticks that you must have. Official ones only allowed, of course.

I am being tongue-in-cheek here, mostly. Modiphius have put out some good stuff. They brought out the Thunderbirds co-operative board game which gives them loads of goodwill from me.

And there are worse games companies to copy than Fantasy Flight Games.

Except for that awful version of WFRP they put out - otherwise known as Custom Components Akimbo!

(Yes, I know Manchu loved it, but whatever!)

That one was too component heavy - even for me! FYI FFG also printed a leaner version.

Low model count miniatures games trend to component-heavy because they also trend to granular. You get tokens for being wounded, aiming, lying prone, being stunned, being hidden, having been activated this turn, etc etc etc. Some people hate this and think it clutters up the play space but I am all for it - remembering all the presently relevant conditions of a given warband member is no fun ... and it's even less fun to give up tactical advantage because you don't recall what's up with a certain figure. I guess a rule set could also "give" on the granularity but TBH these kind of games really want gritty details. That's especially true in a skrimish game emulating an exploration-focused CRPG.

It goes both ways, too. Tokens next to a model also inform your opponent about the status of a model and being on the same page makes games much smoother. I'm all for tokens, in moderation.

Speaking of tokens, I hope there are radiation sources in the game. Both as environmental hazards as well as addable through nuka grenades or fatman hits and the like.

 Alpharius wrote:
Of all the things that are done in the name of 'speeding things up', I don't think I've ever come across the 'tape measure' as being a time sink.

I don't think anyone is saying tape measures are a time sink, rather that once you get used to the color coded range sticks it becomes faster to pick up on the visual cues of the sticks rather than measuring with a traditional tape ruler.

 Geifer wrote:
It goes both ways, too. Tokens next to a model also inform your opponent about the status of a model and being on the same page makes games much smoother. I'm all for tokens, in moderation.

Agreed. Warmachine made me appreciate having tokens on a game table, mainly for the reason you state above. It is really easy to forget what conditions your own army is working through, but remembering all the effects on your opponent's army can be down right tedious. Some well placed markers free up those brain cells for better things - like playing the game!

Manchu wrote:
Low model count miniatures games trend to component-heavy because they also trend to granular. You get tokens for being wounded, aiming, lying prone, being stunned, being hidden, having been activated this turn, etc etc etc. Some people hate this and think it clutters up the play space but I am all for it - remembering all the presently relevant conditions of a given warband member is no fun ... and it's even less fun to give up tactical advantage because you don't recall what's up with a certain figure. I guess a rule set could also "give" on the granularity but TBH these kind of games really want gritty details. That's especially true in a skrimish game emulating an exploration-focused CRPG.

Agree 100%. When you ask people what they like about games like Necromunda, Infinity etc. it's quite often the actions of individuals.. crawling behind cover while wounded, someone being stunned/hacked.

Geifer wrote:
Speaking of tokens, I hope there are radiation sources in the game. Both as environmental hazards as well as addable through nuka grenades or fatman hits and the like.

Absolutely! I would be very surprised indeed if Radiation didn't feature - would be a bonus for some factions that thrive on it (Supermutants, Ghouls etc.) and a penalty for others.

MarkNorfolk wrote:Thanks for the response. I always look askance at games that employ some custom measurement system. (I really like SAGA, but come on - what's with the stupid sticks). The most intuitive way to measure something is to use an internationally recognized, well established method of measuring. Something that'll appear on school rulers for example.

To a lot of people (me included) think the sticks are actually a really great part of SAGA! And part of that game being so intuitive and well designed.

I have some special edition ones with scenes from the Bayeux Tapestry on them, which I'm quite proud of

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Of all the things that are done in the name of 'speeding things up', I don't think I've ever come across the 'tape measure' as being a time sink.

I don't think anyone is saying tape measures are a time sink, rather that once you get used to the color coded range sticks it becomes faster to pick up on the visual cues of the sticks rather than measuring with a traditional tape ruler.

See to me, that reeks of the same arguments used in favour of non-qwerty keyboard layouts. Yes, after you learn it and acclimate to it it can be faster, until you go back to using a qwerty board at work, or a friend's, or a cafe, and your brain immediately reverts to the mode of thought you've spent years and decades building up neural pathways for and you lose that extra efficiency when you try going back to non-qwerty.

A lot of us have been playing wargames for years and decades using basic, easy, commonplace distance measurements and a simple tape measure(or, in our more exotic moments, a MK1 12" Whippy Stick), and will be continuing to do so on the regular even after picking up F:WW - I guarantee that any efficiency benefit you'll get from "learning" the game's own system will vanish after you go and play a couple of other, normal games.

Standards are standards for a reason.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Of all the things that are done in the name of 'speeding things up', I don't think I've ever come across the 'tape measure' as being a time sink.

I don't think anyone is saying tape measures are a time sink, rather that once you get used to the color coded range sticks it becomes faster to pick up on the visual cues of the sticks rather than measuring with a traditional tape ruler.

See to me, that reeks of the same arguments used in favour of non-qwerty keyboard layouts. Yes, after you learn it and acclimate to it it can be faster, until you go back to using a qwerty board at work, or a friend's, or a cafe, and your brain immediately reverts to the mode of thought you've spent years and decades building up neural pathways for and you lose that extra efficiency when you try going back to non-qwerty.

A lot of us have been playing wargames for years and decades using basic, easy, commonplace distance measurements and a simple tape measure(or, in our more exotic moments, a MK1 12" Whippy Stick), and will be continuing to do so on the regular even after picking up F:WW - I guarantee that any efficiency benefit you'll get from "learning" the game's own system will vanish after you go and play a couple of other, normal games.

Standards are standards for a reason.

So why are so many components across various technologies color coded for ease if color coding doesn't act as a short-hand visual cue for humans?

Anyway, use your fething tape measure. No one cares. The color sticks are there for those who aren't so... enamored with their measuring tape.

I don't think it is about efficiency one way or the other. Rather, it seems to me it is about product experience. A related concept would be "immersion" (in its simplest meaning). Using game-specific components tends to heighten the particularity of the experience of playing that game. Playing X-Wing feels a certain way, for example, that is nothing like playing 40k. Right now there are a large amount of low model count miniatures games, and playing all of them with pipped d6s and tape measures can feel a bit samey. Including things like color-coded range sticks, especially when they have mechanical impact, can make the game feel a bit more characterful.

 Manchu wrote:
I don't think it is about efficiency one way or the other. Rather, it seems to me it is about product experience. A related concept would be "immersion" (in its simplest meaning). Using game-specific components tends to heighten the particularity of the experience of playing that game. Playing X-Wing feels a certain way, for example, that is nothing like playing 40k. Right now there are a large amount of low model count miniatures games, and playing all of them with pipped d6s and tape measures can feel a bit samey. Including things like color-coded range sticks, especially when they have mechanical impact, can make the game feel a bit more characterful.

That's a very good point!

I enjoy Dark Age, and that game certainly uses a fair amount of tokens to represent all of the various status and effect states.

DeepWars also uses 'short', 'medium' and 'long' measuring sticks too - and I'm a fan of that there, so I'm sure it will all be OK here.

(I do still prefer a simple tape though!)

Really enjoying the conversation on the rulers folks, its all good stuff (especially as everyone is playing nice ) and I will be feeding it back to people this week as we talk over the play test sessions we are smashing out before launch.

Radiation??? Well, it seems pretty Fallout right? Can't say any more than that or Chris might lock me in a vault somewhere.

Plus, I'm pretty sure he is going to be doing a number of the rules blogs over the next few weeks so I don't want to steal his thunder on the mechanics of the game.

Praise Atom!

 Pacific wrote:

Geifer wrote:
Speaking of tokens, I hope there are radiation sources in the game. Both as environmental hazards as well as addable through nuka grenades or fatman hits and the like.

Absolutely! I would be very surprised indeed if Radiation didn't feature - would be a bonus for some factions that thrive on it (Supermutants, Ghouls etc.) and a penalty for others.

This is one of my favorite things, asymmetrical environmental threat . I love terrain interaction and considering Fallout will have settlement defense, I have high hopes for a wider range of options than the usual "this thing provides cover, that thing slows models down). If the terrain in question benefits you, you can use it to your advantage. If it's detrimental, you may have to decide whether the risk of going through it is worth the reward.

Eh, it's late and I'm probably not making much sense. I'm looking forward to more rule blogs, especially the ones after we get the basics out of the way. Could be some really funky stuff.

Nuke-apoc Terrain interaction like This is Not a Test would be great!

Speaking of Atom, I really hope his Children get faction rules at some point. They are my favorite.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Of all the things that are done in the name of 'speeding things up', I don't think I've ever come across the 'tape measure' as being a time sink.

I don't think anyone is saying tape measures are a time sink, rather that once you get used to the color coded range sticks it becomes faster to pick up on the visual cues of the sticks rather than measuring with a traditional tape ruler.

See to me, that reeks of the same arguments used in favour of non-qwerty keyboard layouts. Yes, after you learn it and acclimate to it it can be faster, until you go back to using a qwerty board at work, or a friend's, or a cafe, and your brain immediately reverts to the mode of thought you've spent years and decades building up neural pathways for and you lose that extra efficiency when you try going back to non-qwerty.

A lot of us have been playing wargames for years and decades using basic, easy, commonplace distance measurements and a simple tape measure(or, in our more exotic moments, a MK1 12" Whippy Stick), and will be continuing to do so on the regular even after picking up F:WW - I guarantee that any efficiency benefit you'll get from "learning" the game's own system will vanish after you go and play a couple of other, normal games.

Standards are standards for a reason.

You are trying awfully hard to be annoyed by this incredibly minor thing.

Personally, I like what I've heard so far and will reserve final judgement until I see it in action.

Looking forward to bearing more about the rules and seeing some physical models...

~Eric

 Yodhrin wrote:


A lot of us have been playing wargames for years and decades using basic, easy, commonplace distance measurements and a simple tape measure(or, in our more exotic moments, a MK1 12" Whippy Stick).

You say that, but I know make 40k gamers in my area actually use the old whipper sticks cut to different weapon and movement ranges and it has made games more interesting... so I am interested to see it appear here too