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The Vehicles being able to charge are really a HUGE boost to assault armies.
Charge first with vehicle and then with infantry, if the vehicle makes it, then the infantry doesn't have to suffer the overwatch. Between this and the assault from deepstrike i'm afraid that this edition will be really assault centered.

Spoletta wrote:

Eyjio wrote:
Basically nothing new. Pretty dull update to be honest.

On a different note, what the **** are those annihilation barge stats? How has (effectively) a 13/13/11 Annihilation Barge now become easier to kill than a 12/12/10 dreadnought?! So, 12/12/10 walker with autocannons and decent assault is now T7 W8 3+, but a 13/13/11 skimmer with slightly better autocannons but awful assault is now T6 W8 4+? Quantum shielding's replacement had better be pretty amazing, or the whole feeling of "very tough shooting platform which doesn't like heavy weapons" is now just going to be "fast flimsy floating shooting platform which dies to a stiff breeze". I didn't want my annihilation barge to be a ravenger, I wanted it to be an annihilation barge. I think I'd have rather them not show us these stats if quantum shielding DOES give a large buff, because now I'm just going to be wondering if they understood the appeal of Necrons at all.

That profile sounds fine for an 11/11/11 open topped vehicle, the same i would expect for land speeders.

Good point, the annihilation barge is pretty fragile without quantum shielding so I imagine this stat line to reflect that with a special rule or two to make up for it.

 buddha wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Eyjio wrote:
Basically nothing new. Pretty dull update to be honest.

On a different note, what the **** are those annihilation barge stats? How has (effectively) a 13/13/11 Annihilation Barge now become easier to kill than a 12/12/10 dreadnought?! So, 12/12/10 walker with autocannons and decent assault is now T7 W8 3+, but a 13/13/11 skimmer with slightly better autocannons but awful assault is now T6 W8 4+? Quantum shielding's replacement had better be pretty amazing, or the whole feeling of "very tough shooting platform which doesn't like heavy weapons" is now just going to be "fast flimsy floating shooting platform which dies to a stiff breeze". I didn't want my annihilation barge to be a ravenger, I wanted it to be an annihilation barge. I think I'd have rather them not show us these stats if quantum shielding DOES give a large buff, because now I'm just going to be wondering if they understood the appeal of Necrons at all.

That profile sounds fine for an 11/11/11 open topped vehicle, the same i would expect for land speeders.

Good point, the annihilation barge is pretty fragile without quantum shielding so I imagine this stat line to reflect that with a special rule or two to make up for it.

I imagine quantum shielding to be made into a flat Invulnerable save that lasts until its taken damage. Shielding implies a sort of forcefield so an invulnerable save would be appropriate

So glad tank shock is gone. If vehicles act like other models in close combat, does that mean they can't fire and have to withdraw? Huge boon for assault armies if so.

We have a wound chart now, i expect quantum shielding to be a bonus that is reduced by wounds taken.

Spoletta wrote:
The Vehicles being able to charge are really a HUGE boost to assault armies.
Charge first with vehicle and then with infantry, if the vehicle makes it, then the infantry doesn't have to suffer the overwatch. Between this and the assault from deepstrike i'm afraid that this edition will be really assault centered.

A few days ago people were saying it was going to be shoot centric again. Between this and that, I'd say it looks pretty balanced.

I just hope Nids get the fearsome factor back if transports will be this powerful.

I keep waiting for the rules teaser with things I'll hate.

They keep knocking it out of the park.

 Deadshot wrote:

Youn wrote:
So, if you surround a vehicle with troops inside. It won't be able to FALL BACK, because it cannot tank shock an opponent now. And won't have space to move away. Any troops that are inside will be instantly destroyed because they won't be able to deploy more then 1" away from an opponent and within 3" of the vehicle.

This is going to make 90 plague zombies deadly to something like a rhino with troops in it.

Very fluffy actually. Trapped inside your APC, unable to jump out into the horde of zombies as far as the eye can see, firing desperately your bolt pistol out the window as you wait for them to tear it apart and eat your brain.

This isn't too different than how it works now, but at least in 7th edition you can Tank Shock your way out. In 8th it seems as though the transport will just have to sit there in the zombie tar pit - not fluffy and not good in my opinion. This may have been a terrible oversight.

Leggy wrote:
I find it interesting that the Annihilation barge has gone from AV 11 to T6, especially as the Marine Dreadnought went from AV12 to T7. Is this a direct conversion rate of AV-5=T, or is there a cutoff point at T6 (to stop las guns wounding light vehicles on 5+?)

Which is such a simple conversion if that is indeed what GW is using as it mathematically incorrect. The numbering systems (AV and Toughness) aren't even the same and it blows my mind that GW or anyone else would think you can do a direct additional or subtraction.

It should have been converted based on previous minimum strength required to glance + 2 (As that equates needing a 6 to wound). IE a Rhino with AV11 would be T7 as you needed S5 to wound (+2). Wildly converting from a system that uses 10-14 to one that uses 1-10 is... what we all expected

 Latro_ wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Finally, won't have to look up Tank Shock and read for 10 minutes every time someone gets the bright idea to use their Rhino for more than moving models. Less fluffy? Maybe a bit. Way easier to use? Frakkin right.

Loss of Tank Shock means losing Death or Glory which is nice as it was basically useless.

Well technically DoG is still there in a way:
Rhino charges
Your dudes overwatch
Rhino strikes first all be it on a 6 etc etc

I guess this also means if you engage any vehicle in combat they are going to have to withdraw in their phase and therefore cannot shoot (unless the have a spec rule)! - thats pretty huge for close combat units! Just chucking chaff units like cultists at a predator is gonna put its shooting out of action for a turn.

I wonder if vehicles also take battle shock tests? they have a LD and they said all the rules apply... could hurt tanks a fair bit of you do multiple wounds with something like a lascannon

Morale is taken against models removed, not wounds. Single models are always immune, and tank squadrons will be affected only if the enemy can apply a huge penalty to discipline. Go Harlequins!!

 Latro_ wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Finally, won't have to look up Tank Shock and read for 10 minutes every time someone gets the bright idea to use their Rhino for more than moving models. Less fluffy? Maybe a bit. Way easier to use? Frakkin right.

Loss of Tank Shock means losing Death or Glory which is nice as it was basically useless.

Well technically DoG is still there in a way:
Rhino charges
Your dudes overwatch
Rhino strikes first all be it on a 6 etc etc

I guess this also means if you engage any vehicle in combat they are going to have to withdraw in their phase and therefore cannot shoot (unless the have a spec rule)! - thats pretty huge for close combat units! Just chucking chaff units like cultists at a predator is gonna put its shooting out of action for a turn.

I wonder if vehicles also take battle shock tests? they have a LD and they said all the rules apply... could hurt tanks a fair bit of you do multiple wounds with something like a lascannon

Individual models are immune to Battle Shock.

I see squadrons having some kind of mitigation like high morale.

Eyjio wrote:
Basically nothing new. Pretty dull update to be honest.

On a different note, what the **** are those annihilation barge stats? How has (effectively) a 13/13/11 Annihilation Barge now become easier to kill than a 12/12/10 dreadnought?! So, 12/12/10 walker with autocannons and decent assault is now T7 W8 3+, but a 13/13/11 skimmer with slightly better autocannons but awful assault is now T6 W8 4+? Quantum shielding's replacement had better be pretty amazing, or the whole feeling of "very tough shooting platform which doesn't like heavy weapons" is now just going to be "fast flimsy floating shooting platform which dies to a stiff breeze". I didn't want my annihilation barge to be a ravager, I wanted it to be an annihilation barge. I think I'd have rather them not show us these stats if quantum shielding DOES give a large buff, because now I'm just going to be wondering if they understood the appeal of Necrons at all.

We all know that the appeal of Necrons is to be unkilliable. But as just as Tau gunlines are unfun, unkilliable necrons are too. Not that they shouldn't be durable, of course they should be. Personally I recommend to wait and see, just see the Rubric rule of +1 of armour save against 1 damage weapons.

ah ofc, forgot that in the excitement!

this kinda works both ways too now i guess vehicles have high toughness and wounds and are faster. Load up on cheap orky buggies and plough them into assault with dedicated assault units like devastators to tie them up XD

 Vector Strike wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Eyjio wrote:
Basically nothing new. Pretty dull update to be honest.

On a different note, what the **** are those annihilation barge stats? How has (effectively) a 13/13/11 Annihilation Barge now become easier to kill than a 12/12/10 dreadnought?! So, 12/12/10 walker with autocannons and decent assault is now T7 W8 3+, but a 13/13/11 skimmer with slightly better autocannons but awful assault is now T6 W8 4+? Quantum shielding's replacement had better be pretty amazing, or the whole feeling of "very tough shooting platform which doesn't like heavy weapons" is now just going to be "fast flimsy floating shooting platform which dies to a stiff breeze". I didn't want my annihilation barge to be a ravenger, I wanted it to be an annihilation barge. I think I'd have rather them not show us these stats if quantum shielding DOES give a large buff, because now I'm just going to be wondering if they understood the appeal of Necrons at all.

That profile sounds fine for an 11/11/11 open topped vehicle, the same i would expect for land speeders.

LS are 10 all around, so I'd guess they'll be T5

I don't think each AV value gets a separate T. Dread with AV2 is T7, Russ wth AV14 is T8, leaving no room vor AV13. I guess the AV10 vehicles are T6, AV13 T7 or 8 and all around 14 like Monolith and Land Raider might be T9

 Deadshot wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
The Vehicles being able to charge are really a HUGE boost to assault armies.
Charge first with vehicle and then with infantry, if the vehicle makes it, then the infantry doesn't have to suffer the overwatch. Between this and the assault from deepstrike i'm afraid that this edition will be really assault centered.

A few days ago people were saying it was going to be shoot centric again. Between this and that, I'd say it looks pretty balanced.

I just hope Nids get the fearsome factor back if transports will be this powerful.

Don't fret, I'm sure in a couple of days we'll be right back to complaining about shooting again! The circle of life...

If charging out of rhinos is possible you can bring your little rhino pet into the melee to help you punch stuff. I see no rule saying you cant ride it into battle as well, so why not have rhino saddles?

No seriously how is this immersive at all? It's just dumb.. And if you get stuck in combat with a rhino and have to leave fight and cant shoot? Cmon...

Never mind - it got beaten down.

Leggy wrote:I find it interesting that the Annihilation barge has gone from AV 11 to T6, especially as the Marine Dreadnaught went from AV12 to T7. Is this a direct conversion rate of AV-5=T, or is there a cutoff point at T6 (to stop las guns wounding light vehicles on 5+?)

That's my bet. Same with AP1=-4, AP2=-3, etc. Makes the most sense to be honest.

Spoletta wrote:That profile sounds fine for an 11/11/11 open topped vehicle, the same i would expect for land speeders.

Possible, but it's still really bad. Also, 12" movement feels really silly for something which is just a huge gun.

xerxeshavelock wrote:Simplest guess for Quantum Shielding is an invulnerable save. Possibly just against shooting, but maybe against anything.

God, I hope not, that would make it even MORE like a DE vehicle. It would also make them almost hilariously easy to kill - if it's a 4++, that means it would die in 34 bolter shots. That's... not a lot of shots, especially when it's currently completely immune to S6 or less.

I get that the Annihilation Barge is fragile without quantum shields in the current edition, but they also can't lose it to anything less than T8, and AV13 is much more durable than, say, it getting +2T. The 4+ save means it won't get a save from any guns which are currently AP2 - plasma guns in particular go from being one of the worst units you can fire at it to one of the best. At the end of the day, I understand that it's likely all been balanced out, but the entire reason I love Necrons is that they're like little ticks on the battlefield - not hugely devastating in terms of damage output, but hard to shift. The Annihilation Barge now looks like a paper airplane, or any other generic fast shooting platform that you expect to see in Eldar/DE armies. Heck, that was one of the reasons I found the match up against Eldar/DE so interesting - the armies play very differently, one being fast striking and mobile, the other being tough and hard hitting. If that's gone, I'll be very sad.

 Kirasu wrote:

Leggy wrote:
I find it interesting that the Annihilation barge has gone from AV 11 to T6, especially as the Marine Dreadnought went from AV12 to T7. Is this a direct conversion rate of AV-5=T, or is there a cutoff point at T6 (to stop las guns wounding light vehicles on 5+?)

Which is such a simple conversion if that is indeed what GW is using as it mathematically incorrect. The numbering systems (AV and Toughness) aren't even the same and it blows my mind that GW or anyone else would think you can do a direct additional or subtraction.

It should have been converted based on previous minimum strength required to glance + 2 (As that equates needing a 6 to wound). IE a Rhino with AV11 would be T7 as you needed S5 to wound (+2). Wildly converting from a system that uses 10-14 to one that uses 1-10 is... what we all expected

They have added armour saves and lots of wound though. I imagine they made toughness lower than a direct equivalent to account for this.

(Btw the Formula works for the Gorkanaut's change from AV13 to T8 too)

See you're assuming the worst of your opponent. Maybe he just like several chapters and doesn't want to build multiple copies of the same army to play different rules.

Maybe so! Like I said before, its not like I would refuse to play someone who did this but it would detract from my fun.

40k is essentially a collaborative story telling experience for me, so having a Chapter which fundamentally changes in character all the time would detract from the storyline that we are trying to build together.
I am deffo against faction hopping when it is done for the purpose of wringing an advantage out of the rules system with a complete disregard for the story.

However, if my opponent had gone to the trouble of writing a decent bit of background i would be much happier. Say a Chapter who doesn't know its Primarch and reveres them all equally.
Therefore, they are trained in all of the battle doctrines of all the famous chapters and apply them as they feel fit as the situation desmands.

Trouble with that is the weaknesses of a faction/character are usually the coolest bits about them and these guys sounds like the 'Bestmarines' who are always best at everything haha!

I'd probably wait till you see more of the rules for the unit before getting worried. Otherwise, you'll miss it's just an acorn.

Ok, vehicles being able to charge is AWESOME.

So with the info released about movement, and with all the info about how much shooting has been buffed, any unit in the game can now disengage while the rest of the army can now shred the enemy CC unit to diced confetti.

RIP CC armies.

Most of the FB comments just waste space. People should really learn to stay relevant to the topic on hand.
Q: hey what about my stuff?
A: all will be answered in time.

Q:hey but what about MY stuff?
A: all will be answered in time.

Latro_ wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Finally, won't have to look up Tank Shock and read for 10 minutes every time someone gets the bright idea to use their Rhino for more than moving models. Less fluffy? Maybe a bit. Way easier to use? Frakkin right.

Loss of Tank Shock means losing Death or Glory which is nice as it was basically useless.

Well technically DoG is still there in a way:
Rhino charges
Your dudes overwatch
Rhino strikes first all be it on a 6 etc etc

I guess this also means if you engage any vehicle in combat they are going to have to withdraw in their phase and therefore cannot shoot (unless the have a spec rule)! - thats pretty huge for close combat units! Just chucking chaff units like cultists at a predator is gonna put its shooting out of action for a turn.

I wonder if vehicles also take battle shock tests? they have a LD and they said all the rules apply... could hurt tanks a fair bit of you do multiple wounds with something like a lascannon

Morale does not affect units consisting of only one model. I believe they covered this in the Morale article. The unit has to suffer a casualty not just take wounds for Morale to trigger.

Deadshot wrote:

 oni wrote:
SOoo... I can assault and then punch with my Rhino? This feels wrong.

I wonder if the Rhino would have to Fall Back from combat or if it can still simply drive away?

What's concerning from the article is vehicles will have the -1 To Hit modifier for Heavy weapons if they move. This could mean that all of our vehicles will need higher rolls across the board To Hit then previously. This makes them a lot less effective. I don't like this thought one bit.

But, on the other hand, all heavy weapons just need a -1 modifier. Previously your Predator was move 6", firing 1 weapon at 3+, the rest at 6+ to hit. Now it moves fully (maybe 6 or more) and fires everything, just needing 4+, and can fire at different targets

A fair point. I like the current system where I can at least get one weapon off at full BS moving 6". However, giving more thought to this new way, I do like the simplicity.

Yonasu wrote:
If charging out of rhinos is possible you can bring your little rhino pet into the melee to help you punch stuff. I see no rule saying you cant ride it into battle as well, so why not have rhino saddles?

No seriously how is this immersive at all? It's just dumb.. And if you get stuck in combat with a rhino and have to leave fight and cant shoot? Cmon...

Yes, because the fact that tank shock makes more sense is stupid. The fact that your tank can run people over while they try to stick grenades toit is stupid. Because running people over as a moving wall of metal to support the squishier elements who need to get into combat is stupid. Because adding new tactical options that make assaulting stronger is stupid. Because making wargear like the Rockgrinder and Deff Rolla is stupid.

Because making the game more balanced, more tactically interesting and making transports more important than just a temporary bunker is totally stupid, right?

Just because you have some kind of weird dislike for the game making things work in a way that makes the game better doesn't make it bad. A rhino leading a charge for a squad of Marines is no different than a Carnifex leading one for Hormagaunts. It's sound tactics to use somethhing durable to take punishment and lock up an enemy umit so a squishier unit can get locked in.

So, how does Morale affect vehicles now???

 Zewrath wrote:
So with the info released about movement, and with all the info about how much shooting has been buffed, any unit in the game can now disengage while the rest of the army can now shred the enemy CC unit to diced confetti.

RIP CC armies.

Aaand we have gone full circle, didn't even need one page!

 Zewrath wrote:
So with the info released about movement, and with all the info about how much shooting has been buffed, any unit in the game can now disengage while the rest of the army can now shred the enemy CC unit to diced confetti.

RIP CC armies.

Diengaging keeps e unit that backed up from shooting unless they have a special rule that let's them (like Fly or Walking Battleship).

My personal bet on quantum shielding is a FnP like roll that is reduced with wounds, something like 4+ at full wounds.