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 Alpharius wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
WHY are the Plague Marines getting bigger too?

I mean, sure, we know why, just look at Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Custodes, Sisters of Silence, etc.

...but still!

They said the chaos gods have been busy, improving things. The chaos marines are gaining power, and it seems size as well.

So you're saying that...Chaos is being to grow?!?

(Or something like that!)

I would like it if the Primaris Marines remained the only 'tall ones' for at least a little while!

I think it's probably better than they just go forward with moving all the Space Marines to a more similar scale. The Deathwatch and Thousand Sons are now the odd men out, as they don't fit in with either the scale of the old marines or the Primaris. I'm also glad that Chaos looks to be more similar in scale to the Nu-marines...I can't imagine the gnashing of teeth Chaos players would undergo if their marines permanently became smaller than the ultra good guys.

*breaks through wall Cool Aid Man style*

The new minis look great...

... except...

... why are the Plague Marines, in their Mk.II/Mk.III Armour Hybrid, the same size as the brand new Primaris Marines?

I was afraid that the new Marines were just a thinly veiled attempt at replacing the existing models. The new Chaos Marines clinch that. Every Marine will be biggerized soon enough. Once they expand upon the new BA v 'Nids fluff, you can bet Dante will finally get a new model, but he'll have gone through the 'upgrade' to a Primaris Marine. Ditto for ol' Az.

tneva82 wrote:

DCannon4Life wrote:
I suppose, if you have a unit rolling 12+ LasCannon shots, it could slow the game down. I'm not familiar with any units that do that. And we're all already used to rolling results separately; when shooting LasCannons at a unit of War Walkers, for example, we roll the results one at a time to see if we get 'Explodes' results.

This will very much be like that: "Is he dead yet? No? Here's the next LasCannon's Damage roll." "Is he dead NOW? NO?! Good grief, here's the NEXT LasCannon's Damage roll...."

10 support marines from legions list says hi. Also predator annihilator has 4 lascannons so multiple wounds incoming, land raider likewise and spartan from FW will have whopping 8 lascannon shots.

And apart from who rolled vehicle damage separately that's still not same as that was 1 dice one at a time. Here it woudl be dice followed by multiple dice followed by same process set.

Don't see them going that way. Especially as there's perfectly working way to ensure no separate rolling. After rolling for damage trim excess damage to amount of wounds model has.

Well, all I can say in response is that I've been play-testing 8th since last fall, and this particular feature (multi-damage weapons vs. units with multi-wound models) isn't slowing the game down at all. I'm part of the Adepticon team, for the record.

Fluff wise the Chaos Gods are pushing back at Guilliman,s attempts at making the Imperium less gak and have begun to empower their forces even more, especially Nurgle who is pissed that Guilliman is even alive.

In actuallity it's more that the bigger guys just look better in the starter being the same size as the Primaris and less like weedly manlet cult marines.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
*breaks through wall Cool Aid Man style*

The new minis look great...

... except...

... why are the Plague Marines, in their Mk.II/Mk.III Armour Hybrid, the same size as the brand new Primaris Marines?

I was afraid that the new Marines were just a thinly veiled attempt at replacing the existing models. The new Chaos Marines clinch that. Every Marine will be biggerized soon enough. Once they expand upon the new BA v 'Nids fluff, you can bet Dante will finally get a new model, but he'll have gone through the 'upgrade' to a Primaris Marine. Ditto for ol' Az.

Scroll up a bit and you'll see answers. But in short, GW stated that the Chaos Gods are not going to sit idly by and watch new marines come out. They've been busy too, giving power, creating new things. Nurgle especially likes to create new stuff, it's part of his portfolio.

I may have missed this, but are the unit datasheets going to be available for free at launch, or does one have to buy the index? Is this known yet?

I never actually found Space Marines to require a Lieutenant or any such middle-man. Each officer only has 9 men to worry about: The Sergeant only has the 10 Marines in his squad. The Captain only has 10 Sergeants in his company, who are capable of handling the individual 9 Marines in their squad without the Captain needing to micromanage everything. And the Chapter Master has his 10 Captains that he can basically wash his hands and let them handle 99% of matters inside their own company.

For command squads, you have the designated Veteran Sergeant who stands as the second in command. That's a Lieutenant without needed to add that rank in. Bearing in mind, the rank is Veteran Sergeant, not a Sergeant who is also very experienced. Its the SM equivilent to a Colour Sergeant, who ranks above "Sergeant."

Its one of the elements I always liked about the SM, they don't have superflous ranks lik Cpl, Lance Cpl, Warrant officer, etc. You have Battle Brother (Private), Brother Sergeant, Brother Captain, Chapter Master (General). There isn't micro-granularity of rank so that you have individual marines ranking slightly higher than the rest of his squad.

whirlwindstruggle wrote:
I may have missed this, but are the unit datasheets going to be available for free at launch, or does one have to buy the index? Is this known yet?

Unknown. There will be a list builder ap "soon after" launch. It will likely have the power levels. I believed that learned AoS players have said that they have one ap that is free (power levels for open/narrative play) and one ap that you pay $1.50 per month for points (for matched play).

I don't know anything about that and the poster may have been typing out of his ass.

DCannon4Life wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

DCannon4Life wrote:
I suppose, if you have a unit rolling 12+ LasCannon shots, it could slow the game down. I'm not familiar with any units that do that. And we're all already used to rolling results separately; when shooting LasCannons at a unit of War Walkers, for example, we roll the results one at a time to see if we get 'Explodes' results.

This will very much be like that: "Is he dead yet? No? Here's the next LasCannon's Damage roll." "Is he dead NOW? NO?! Good grief, here's the NEXT LasCannon's Damage roll...."

10 support marines from legions list says hi. Also predator annihilator has 4 lascannons so multiple wounds incoming, land raider likewise and spartan from FW will have whopping 8 lascannon shots.

And apart from who rolled vehicle damage separately that's still not same as that was 1 dice one at a time. Here it woudl be dice followed by multiple dice followed by same process set.

Don't see them going that way. Especially as there's perfectly working way to ensure no separate rolling. After rolling for damage trim excess damage to amount of wounds model has.

Well, all I can say in response is that I've been play-testing 8th since last fall, and this particular feature (multi-damage weapons vs. units with multi-wound models) isn't slowing the game down at all. I'm part of the Adepticon team, for the record.

I know you likely have an NDA but any chance you could break down how multi-damage weapons work versus say a squad of Terminators in terms of rolling to wounds, save and damage?

 nintura wrote:
Scroll up a bit and you'll see answers. But in short, GW stated that the Chaos Gods are not going to sit idly by and watch new marines come out. They've been busy too, giving power, creating new things. Nurgle especially likes to create new stuff, it's part of his portfolio.

I don't care what the fluff reasons are. You can use the fluff to justify anything. These are the blatant first steps to utterly replace several entire model lines, rendering armies across the world essentially obsolete.

It just seems so cynical, and is another example of GW burning their legacy Warhammer Fantasy style to, what, sell some new miniatures?

Many often comment that GW occasionally shoot themselves in the foot. This seems like like GW sawing their own arms off because they think it'll make them more aerodynamic!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
why are the Plague Marines, in their Mk.II/Mk.III Armour Hybrid, the same size as the brand new Primaris Marines?

They don't seem to be bigger. Bulkier, yes, but that's a Death Guard thing.

Warhams-77 wrote:
Another size comparison photo - Source: Steppingbetweengames blog

 Deadshot wrote:
I never actually found Space Marines to require a Lieutenant or any such middle-man. Each officer only has 9 men to worry about: The Sergeant only has the 10 Marines in his squad. The Captain only has 10 Sergeants in his company, who are capable of handling the individual 9 Marines in their squad without the Captain needing to micromanage everything. And the Chapter Master has his 10 Captains that he can basically wash his hands and let them handle 99% of matters inside their own company.

For command squads, you have the designated Veteran Sergeant who stands as the second in command. That's a Lieutenant without needed to add that rank in. Bearing in mind, the rank is Veteran Sergeant, not a Sergeant who is also very experienced. Its the SM equivilent to a Colour Sergeant, who ranks above "Sergeant."

Except there was not a way to have such a veteran sergeant to be your mandatory HQ. It doesn't matter what this commander-lesser-than-a-captain is actually called, one is still logically needed. (And no, librarians and chaplains don't count, they're not line officers.)

Looks like the new DG vary in height.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 nintura wrote:
Scroll up a bit and you'll see answers. But in short, GW stated that the Chaos Gods are not going to sit idly by and watch new marines come out. They've been busy too, giving power, creating new things. Nurgle especially likes to create new stuff, it's part of his portfolio.

I don't care what the fluff reasons are. You can use the fluff to justify anything. These are the blatant first steps to utterly replace several entire model lines, rendering armies across the world essentially obsolete.

Yeah. While they won't remove rules for mini Marines, I expect there will be no further development or kits for them. They also wanted to make them stronger to encourage the purchase.

Im not upset by it personally, but it's easy to see why people would be.

But damn those Marines look amazing.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 nintura wrote:
Scroll up a bit and you'll see answers. But in short, GW stated that the Chaos Gods are not going to sit idly by and watch new marines come out. They've been busy too, giving power, creating new things. Nurgle especially likes to create new stuff, it's part of his portfolio.

I don't care what the fluff reasons are. You can use the fluff to justify anything. These are the blatant first steps to utterly replace several entire model lines, rendering armies across the world essentially obsolete.

It just seems so cynical, and is another example of GW burning their legacy Warhammer Fantasy style to, what, sell some new miniatures?

Many often comment that GW occasionally shoot themselves in the foot. This seems like like GW sawing their own arms off because they think it'll make them more aerodynamic!

Change happens. Otherwise things get stagnant. Especially after 20+ years. If you can't embrace change, then you're going to hate life. The fact is, the scale looks better, the mini's have better detail and more options. All around the mini is just a better option. People just get stuck on the past, or just don't want to redo work they've always done.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
They don't seem to be bigger.

They seem pretty damn big to me.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

I don't care what the fluff reasons are. You can use the fluff to justify anything. These are the blatant first steps to utterly replace several entire model lines, rendering armies across the world essentially obsolete.

Yes, this is absolutely what it is.

But these new models look absolutely stunning, so I'm on board!

It is really not any different that when I replaced my metal and singlepose plastic marines with the new multipose marines when they were released during the third edition. And a lot of people had replaced their plastic RT beakies before that.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
why are the Plague Marines, in their Mk.II/Mk.III Armour Hybrid, the same size as the brand new Primaris Marines?

They don't seem to be bigger. Bulkier, yes, but that's a Death Guard thing.

Warhams-77 wrote:
Another size comparison photo - Source: Steppingbetweengames blog

They look to be halfway between a tac and primaris models. Which makes sense as that's where the Vengeance and 1k Sons marines are.

 Alpharius wrote:
WHY are the Plague Marines getting bigger too?

I mean, sure, we know why, just look at Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Custodes, Sisters of Silence, etc.

...but still!

Because you can charge up to double for larger figures that cost pennies more to punch out and equivalent cost to 3D model compared with normal 32mm figures. While we're both fans of truescale marines, this is just the likely beginning of a general scale increase going forward. I expect orks to get alot bigger (and probably get a stupid new name like they did in WHFB/AOS to orruks) next... then all of a sudden nids will probably get a growth spurt...etc.

There is another picture of the grenade DG who is exactly Primaris size/height though...so inconsistent between the DG models.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 nintura wrote:
Scroll up a bit and you'll see answers. But in short, GW stated that the Chaos Gods are not going to sit idly by and watch new marines come out. They've been busy too, giving power, creating new things. Nurgle especially likes to create new stuff, it's part of his portfolio.

I don't care what the fluff reasons are. You can use the fluff to justify anything. These are the blatant first steps to utterly replace several entire model lines, rendering armies across the world essentially obsolete.

It just seems so cynical, and is another example of GW burning their legacy Warhammer Fantasy style to, what, sell some new miniatures?

Many often comment that GW occasionally shoot themselves in the foot. This seems like like GW sawing their own arms off because they think it'll make them more aerodynamic!

I don't agree. For one due to seeing several different examples it looks like the new DG vary in height instead of being a uniform size (which works for me since the actual Marines should vary in height as well).

And two, a slow replacement of Marines (assuming it to be happening at all) is better than a massive dump of new models and taking the old stuff away.

Frankly at this point, what can they give Marines other than an upscaled version that are the correct size? I can,t think of anything from the fluff or HH they could really squeeze in, so bringing in a truescale model line replacement is honestly the best choice going forward. Making them a part of the lore and rules lets people have a reason to get invested in them and to start collecting them. Plus we might get a neat civil war campaign story out of this where some chapters refuse to use them and but heads with Guilliman over it.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:
They don't seem to be bigger.

They seem pretty damn big to me.

Huh. That PM is as tall as a Primaris, but in the other pic, that model is a head shorter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I really want that Axe wielding Plague Marine commander

 Crimson wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
I never actually found Space Marines to require a Lieutenant or any such middle-man. Each officer only has 9 men to worry about: The Sergeant only has the 10 Marines in his squad. The Captain only has 10 Sergeants in his company, who are capable of handling the individual 9 Marines in their squad without the Captain needing to micromanage everything. And the Chapter Master has his 10 Captains that he can basically wash his hands and let them handle 99% of matters inside their own company.

For command squads, you have the designated Veteran Sergeant who stands as the second in command. That's a Lieutenant without needed to add that rank in. Bearing in mind, the rank is Veteran Sergeant, not a Sergeant who is also very experienced. Its the SM equivilent to a Colour Sergeant, who ranks above "Sergeant."

Except there was not a way to have such a veteran sergeant to be your mandatory HQ. It doesn't matter what this commander-lesser-than-a-captain is actually called, one is still logically needed. (And no, librarians and chaplains don't count, they're not line officers.)

A veteran sergeant is more than capable of leading a small force such as 2 Tactical Squads, a Predator and a techmarine. Why do you need a Lieutenant to micromanage tiny excursions? If the tiny strike force was that vital you are better off having the top guy (Captain) lead it himself to ensure success, while leaving the wider battle to your right hand man. There doesn't need to be a middleman.

The 2 Troops 1 HQ system is also a relic of 5th Ed that's been slowly phased out, and now entirely obselete unless desired. No longer needing a minor officer to fill up tax.

Anyone else thinking that the Chaos Gods may not have been as giving with their boons as much as they were with the growth hormones since we don't extra wounds on Rubrics or being hinted at for the Death Guard?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Anyone else thinking that the Chaos Gods may not have been as giving with their boons as much as they were with the growth hormones since we don't extra wounds on Rubrics or being hinted at for the Death Guard?

Do we know Primaris get 2 wounds apiece?

 nintura wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Anyone else thinking that the Chaos Gods may not have been as giving with their boons as much as they were with the growth hormones since we don't extra wounds on Rubrics or being hinted at for the Death Guard?

Do we know Primaris get 2 wounds apiece?

It would appear so.

 Latro_ wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
WHY are the Plague Marines getting bigger too?

I mean, sure, we know why, just look at Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Custodes, Sisters of Silence, etc.

...but still!

yea this worries me from my collection standpoint... new zerkers are unlikely to be small either i bet

Yup... I'd recommend looking at chaos figs before and after AOS. I'd expect world legion bezerkers to get bumped up just like those AOS khorne humans bezerkers did.

 kronk wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Anyone else thinking that the Chaos Gods may not have been as giving with their boons as much as they were with the growth hormones since we don't extra wounds on Rubrics or being hinted at for the Death Guard?

Do we know Primaris get 2 wounds apiece?

It would appear so.

Wow, for 6 power they seem a little over the top maybe?

Warhams-77 wrote:
More photos - via Faeit und Miniwars.eu

Spoiler:

Wow... This picture has been enlightening.

I love the new models, but the drastic re-scaling has me thoroughly disenchanted. I have so many SM kits in the queue that have been undermined by the new Primaris SM's that my motivation to build & paint them has been utterly decimated.

What's next on the re-scaling block? The uncertainty is terrifying. The thought of my models, my entire collection, being obsoleted has me reeling from the hobby.

6 power for those Intersessor Primaris,mbut nothing more than 5 guys to a squad with Kraken Bolts.