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 oni wrote:

Warhams-77 wrote:
More photos - via Faeit und Miniwars.eu

Spoiler:

Wow... This picture has been enlightening.

I love the new models, but the drastic re-scaling has me thoroughly disenchanted. I have so many SM kits in the queue that have been undermined by the new Primaris SM's that my motivation to build & paint them has been utterly decimated.

What's next on the re-scaling block? The uncertainty is terrifying. The thought of my models, my entire collection, being obsoleted has me reeling from the hobby.

I truly dont get this line of thinking.... Primaris marines are not regular marines. Your army is still very much valid and in fact hasn't changed in the slightest. If you dont like these, dont buy or play them. Continue to do what you were doing as if they never happened.

 oni wrote:
I love the new models, but the drastic re-scaling has me thoroughly disenchanted. I have so many SM kits in the queue that have been undermined by the new Primaris SM's that my motivation to build & paint them has been utterly decimated.

What's next on the re-scaling block? The uncertainty is terrifying. The thought of my models, my entire collection, being obsoleted has me reeling from the hobby.

I share your concerns oni. Now get ready for a wave people telling you that you are either:

A). Living in the past.
B). Won't accept change.
C). That because Marines were smaller 30-odd years ago in the RT days, that this is not different.
D). That because Deathwatch/Thousand Son Marines are slightly bigger than the current Tactical Marines that this is no real change at all.
E). That everything is fine and nothing is broken because all armies will remain valid! Just ask all the Tomb King and Bretonnian players out there!

 oni wrote:

Warhams-77 wrote:
More photos - via Faeit und Miniwars.eu

Spoiler:

Wow... This picture has been enlightening.

I love the new models, but the drastic re-scaling has me thoroughly disenchanted. I have so many SM kits in the queue that have been undermined by the new Primaris SM's that my motivation to build & paint them has been utterly decimated.

What's next on the re-scaling block? The uncertainty is terrifying. The thought of my models, my entire collection, being obsoleted has me reeling from the hobby.

Olay the game long enough and you,ll have already faced this problem more than once,

That said, for generic Marines, I feel we reached a point where rescaling them was all they could really do. At least with other armies there are swaths of units than can use updates eithout just making new things bigger to sell them.

I don,t expect non-Marines to get larger as it feels like they want the Marines to stand out more on the table against other armies. Which is fine in my book.

Nice edit there HBMC.

 nintura wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Anyone else thinking that the Chaos Gods may not have been as giving with their boons as much as they were with the growth hormones since we don't extra wounds on Rubrics or being hinted at for the Death Guard?

Do we know Primaris get 2 wounds apiece?

It would appear so.

Wow, for 6 power they seem a little over the top maybe?

I dunno, they don't seem particularly amazing.

Same number of shots and strength as 5 Tacticals, with better range and some light rend. Good per-model firepower for troops, but not game-changingly so.

Their wounds mean an individual lasts twice as long against small arms fire, though on the flip side multi-wound damage ceases to be wasted. Space marines have never been amazing in assault, and a bonus attack is only gonna help a little.

Basically it's all down to whether they were intentionally undercosted to make them seem better artificially, otherwise you're probably better off with normal Tacticals for weight of fire.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

C). That because Marines were smaller 30-odd years ago in the RT days, that this is not different.

Word.

I don't have a problem with the Biggimus Astartemus. It doesn't make my Black Templars obsolete, nor my 3rd edition rhinos or my HH marines, either.

But if you don't like them, I can understand and respect that, even if I don't agree with you. I think some of them look pretty sweet. The Super Nurgle Teminator, I'm hoping, is not going to be the size of terminator equivalents, and not all Chaos Space marines. We'll see.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

changemod wrote:


Same number of shots and strength as 5 Tacticals, with better range and some light rend. Good per-model firepower for troops, but not game-changingly so.

Their wounds mean an individual lasts twice as long against small arms fire, though on the flip side multi-wound damage ceases to be wasted. Space marines have never been amazing in assault, and a bonus attack is only gonna help a little.

Yeah, if 10 tactical marines are 5 power, that's the same number of wounds for slightly less range and no "light rend".

Meh.

It's the Riptide I want to see. And the scatter bikes. What do they do? What do they cost? How do they smell? Things I want to know!

 oni wrote:


Wow... This picture has been enlightening.

I love the new models, but the drastic re-scaling has me thoroughly disenchanted. I have so many SM kits in the queue that have been undermined by the new Primaris SM's that my motivation to build & paint them has been utterly decimated.

What's next on the re-scaling block? The uncertainty is terrifying. The thought of my models, my entire collection, being obsoleted has me reeling from the hobby.

I mean, I get the knee jerk reaction, but this isn't the first time that GW (or any model company for that matter) has changed their scaling or similar, and it won't be the last. It's just part of the modeling hobby as far as I'm concerned. Look at old Hive Tyrants, Bloodthirsters, or even Terminators.

And as has been said, these aren't replacing Marines just yet, they're a different unit altogether.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I know you likely have an NDA but any chance you could break down how multi-damage weapons work versus say a squad of Terminators in terms of rolling to wounds, save and damage?

It's not complicated (though at least some will argue that it's too 'slow'):
1) Make To Wound rolls
2) Make Save rolls
3) If you are firing a (random) multi-damage weapon at a unit with multi-wound models, roll damage results one at a time
4) If the model has an additional rule that allows it to ignore damage (See: Disgusting Resilience), make those rolls
5) If the model survives, repeat #'s 3-5

 kronk wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

C). That because Marines were smaller 30-odd years ago in the RT days, that this is not different.

Word.

I don't have a problem with the Biggimus Astartemus. It doesn't make my Black Templars obsolete, nor my 3rd edition rhinos or my HH marines, either.

But if you don't like them, I can understand and respect that, even if I don't agree with you.

See? I can't respect that. It's complaining for the sake of complaining in the hopes that they pay attention to you specifically. This re-scaling has absolutely nothing to do with anyones army. It's not like your army is obsolete or anything. It literally means nothing at all. All it is, is another boxed set that you can buy for your army if you choose to do so. It would be like them adding a new unit to the codex, which it is.

*EDIT: As said, it's exactly like the nid line. I remember when even Hive Tyrants were tiny. And I remember when they came out looking like the Queen from Aliens. I remember them changing that line every edition. Now see, that's something worth complaining about because the actual models you're using in your army change. This Primaris does not do that in the slightest.

 nintura wrote:

 oni wrote:

Warhams-77 wrote:
More photos - via Faeit und Miniwars.eu

Spoiler:

Wow... This picture has been enlightening.

I love the new models, but the drastic re-scaling has me thoroughly disenchanted. I have so many SM kits in the queue that have been undermined by the new Primaris SM's that my motivation to build & paint them has been utterly decimated.

What's next on the re-scaling block? The uncertainty is terrifying. The thought of my models, my entire collection, being obsoleted has me reeling from the hobby.

I truly dont get this line of thinking.... Primaris marines are not regular marines. Your army is still very much valid and in fact hasn't changed in the slightest. If you dont like these, dont buy or play them. Continue to do what you were doing as if they never happened.

The word on the net, which is very very very likely to be true, is GW are aiming to replace all Marines with Primaris Marines over the next few years. Evidence includes rescaled vehicles, Primaris only starter set, and the fluff allowing regular Marines to take a shot of gene-juice and become Primaris marines.

In this case, all Marines will become Primaris over the next few years. In 9th Ed, when they are all Primaris by default, a newbie player coming in won't know the difference between Primaris and regular as there will be no difference, but the rest of us will be forced to finish our chapters with these NuMarines whether we like it or not. Why is this a bad idea?

Consistancy for one. I don't want different looking Marines from the Primaris range. Quality, for another. The Primaris models are horrendous imo, and don't have the appeal that Mk7 marines have for me. Terrible fluff, for 3.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/24/new-warhammer-40000-a-forge-world-datasheet-may24gw-homepage-post-4/



Forgeworld news on WC!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/24/new-warhammer-40000-a-forge-world-datasheet-may24gw-homepage-post-4/

 nintura wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

C). That because Marines were smaller 30-odd years ago in the RT days, that this is not different.

Word.

I don't have a problem with the Biggimus Astartemus. It doesn't make my Black Templars obsolete, nor my 3rd edition rhinos or my HH marines, either.

But if you don't like them, I can understand and respect that, even if I don't agree with you.

See? I can't respect that. It's complaining for the sake of complaining in the hopes that they pay attention to you specifically. This re-scaling has absolutely nothing to do with anyones army. It's not like your army is obsolete or anything. It literally means nothing at all. All it is, is another boxed set that you can buy for your army if you choose to do so. It would be like them adding a new unit to the codex, which it is.

But its not, its a rescale, which means my models will look goofy and wierd next to each other. Primaris as an optional elite subfaction within your chapter is fine, completely redoing the range is not.

 kronk wrote:

I don't have a problem with the Biggimus Astartemus.

I prefer Adeptus Restartes. It's my fetch.

Here's an example of a weapon that causes mortal wounds. Note it skips the "to-wound" roll.

Thanks nintura. You reminded me of the other obvious answer. Only fitting I include it.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
That said, for generic Marines, I feel we reached a point where rescaling them was all they could really do. At least with other armies there are swaths of units than can use updates eithout just making new things bigger to sell them.

You know I don't disagree.

There are only so many "Oh no, Centurions/Stormhawk Interceptors/Stormtalon Gunships/Stormraven Gunships/Stalker AA tanks/Thunderfire Cannons/Ironclad Dreadnoughts/Land Speeder Storms/Nephilim Jetfighters/Dark Talons/Darkshrouds/Land Speeder Vengeances/Deathwing Knights/Ravenwing Black Knights/Stormwolves/Stormfangs/Thunderwolf Cavalry have always been there, just slightly off camera!" before the retconning gets out of hand. Some might argue that it already is.

But to release a new range of Space Marines and then say "No! They're totes just differenter Marines and the old ones are still good! They're not going anywhere! Honest! Have we ever lied about that before in the past? Of course not! You can trust us. Also Chaos Marines are big now because... umm... THE WARP!" just reeks of a level of cynicism not seen since the Sigmarines came into existence.

Wow that Leviathan... when your weakest weapon is a melta gun, that's just scary. can't wait to see what my Salamanders Leviathan looks like.

 nintura wrote:
can't wait to see what my Salamanders Leviathan looks like.

Probably green. With some flames. Maybe a giant lizard's scales draped over a shoulder.

Requizen wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/24/new-warhammer-40000-a-forge-world-datasheet-may24gw-homepage-post-4/

Spoiler:

Forgeworld news on WC!

Drills are flat out better? Dissapointing, I bought claws because they look significantly cooler.

I guess you're meant to proxy the storm cannon as a butcher cannon and the big Melta as the soul burner.

 Deadshot wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

C). That because Marines were smaller 30-odd years ago in the RT days, that this is not different.

Word.

I don't have a problem with the Biggimus Astartemus. It doesn't make my Black Templars obsolete, nor my 3rd edition rhinos or my HH marines, either.

But if you don't like them, I can understand and respect that, even if I don't agree with you.

See? I can't respect that. It's complaining for the sake of complaining in the hopes that they pay attention to you specifically. This re-scaling has absolutely nothing to do with anyones army. It's not like your army is obsolete or anything. It literally means nothing at all. All it is, is another boxed set that you can buy for your army if you choose to do so. It would be like them adding a new unit to the codex, which it is.

But its not, its a rescale, which means my models will look goofy and wierd next to each other. Primaris as an optional elite subfaction within your chapter is fine, completely redoing the range is not.

Then don't? Your army is not changing. You do not have to use Primaris. You can leave your army as is. We can repeat this all friggin day long. Hell, phase them out over time if you like. Or don't.

Hey look at that, a weapon doing 2D3 hits. Much better. Shame the Battlecannon couldn't get such an obvious rule.

 kronk wrote:

 nintura wrote:
can't wait to see what my Salamanders Leviathan looks like.

Probably green. With some flames. Maybe a giant lizard's scales draped over a shoulder.

 nintura wrote:
Almost done!

Jesus I wish! But for now, I'll use mine But I really want to see what his rules will look like. He's never died in a game yet and is always super effective.

We all know the hobby is about buying.

changemod wrote:

Requizen wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/24/new-warhammer-40000-a-forge-world-datasheet-may24gw-homepage-post-4/

Spoiler:

Forgeworld news on WC!

Drills are flat out better? Disappointing, I bought claws because they look significantly cooler.

I guess you're meant to proxy the storm cannon as a butcher cannon and the big Melta as the soul burner.

Remember that this doesn't have a point cost. I bet when you look up the point cost, it cost to add drills to the model. Gives you a reason to stick with claws.

So with a Death Guard datasheet, can we expect to see Thousand Sons, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Grey Knights?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

But to release a new range of Space Marines and then say "No! They're totes just differenter Marines and the old ones are still good! They're not going anywhere! Honest! Have we ever lied about that before in the past? Of course not! You can trust us. Also Chaos Marines are big now because... umm... THE WARP!" just reeks of a level of cynicism not seen since the Sigmarines came into existence.

And the suspension of disbelief that the Sigmarines were exactly what the nickname implies was just as strong in a segment of the fanbase two years ago. I said when these were first announced that we'd see terminator, devastator, and assault marine primaris equivalents and we've already started to. The next step is in a couple of months when lots of various marine flavors are taken off of the must stock list for retailers and go direct only. But remember that doesn't change/affect/replace your existing Astartes Secundus army!

"There’s even a ranged weapon that kicks out mortal wounds – one of only a handful in the entire game."

 docdoom77 wrote:
Here's an example of a weapon that causes mortal wounds. Note it skips the "to-wound" roll.

Don't expect that to be the norm.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
I never actually found Space Marines to require a Lieutenant or any such middle-man. Each officer only has 9 men to worry about: The Sergeant only has the 10 Marines in his squad. The Captain only has 10 Sergeants in his company, who are capable of handling the individual 9 Marines in their squad without the Captain needing to micromanage everything. And the Chapter Master has his 10 Captains that he can basically wash his hands and let them handle 99% of matters inside their own company.

For command squads, you have the designated Veteran Sergeant who stands as the second in command. That's a Lieutenant without needed to add that rank in. Bearing in mind, the rank is Veteran Sergeant, not a Sergeant who is also very experienced. Its the SM equivilent to a Colour Sergeant, who ranks above "Sergeant."

Except there was not a way to have such a veteran sergeant to be your mandatory HQ. It doesn't matter what this commander-lesser-than-a-captain is actually called, one is still logically needed. (And no, librarians and chaplains don't count, they're not line officers.)

A veteran sergeant is more than capable of leading a small force such as 2 Tactical Squads, a Predator and a techmarine. Why do you need a Lieutenant to micromanage tiny excursions? If the tiny strike force was that vital you are better off having the top guy (Captain) lead it himself to ensure success, while leaving the wider battle to your right hand man. There doesn't need to be a middleman.

The 2 Troops 1 HQ system is also a relic of 5th Ed that's been slowly phased out, and now entirely obselete unless desired. No longer needing a minor officer to fill up tax.

The 2 Squads and an HQ describes a Platoon. Platoon Leaders are Lieutenants. It makes perfect sense to have a Lieutenant. Honestly, the Veteran Sergeant you are describing IS in the role of a Lieutenant. Keep in mind, Platoons have Platoon Sergeants as well, so it gets a little muddy. The Command element would still be an Officer, not an NCO (though Space Marines don't have pay grades or commissions, so...). The fact that Space Marine Battle Brothers can elevate from a Scout all the way to Chapter Master (who represents a Colonel or General Officer) muddies this as well.

Nvs wrote:
So with a Death Guard datasheet, can we expect to see Thousand Sons, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Grey Knights?

If you go every other day until the 17th, there are 12 more days for Faction Focus articles.

GSC, BA, DA, Sisters, Agents of the Imperium, Orks, Necrons, Ynnari, Harlequins, Chaos Knights, Grey Knights, Space Marines. Not necessarily in that order, but that's 12 articles leading right up to release.