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 Deadshot wrote:

FNP is going to be much rarer, and has it been discussed yet if "FNP" rolls are made against the To Wound roll (so can potentially negate all D6 Dmg?) or against individual wounds (so can save 2 wounds but the other 4 from the lascannon get through)?

Was just saying, you said its enhanced... its not enhanced its worse than now for normal boyz as they typically dont get shot by high S weapons

Hmm. I don't think I like the new take on orks. All this talk of layered support sounds great in many games, but GW's never been very strong with synergy. It feels like it could very easily be bad on either end (not enough layering is pointless, or too much breaks things).

While the new FnP doesn't ignore as many wounds, it does negate Mortal Wounds (as far as I can tell) which is important for things like your Warboss.

That said, unless something has changed to how we organize things like Weirdboyz and Doks, we have a lot of HQs to try and cram into the list if you run Orks since they all provide synergy to the army,

I can see Ork players gravitating towards the larger Battleforged options list for the room to take all their HQ choices.

 Latro_ wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

FNP is going to be much rarer, and has it been discussed yet if "FNP" rolls are made against the To Wound roll (so can potentially negate all D6 Dmg?) or against individual wounds (so can save 2 wounds but the other 4 from the lascannon get through)?

Was just saying, you said its enhanced... its not enhanced its worse than now for normal boyz as they typically dont get shot by high S weapons

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Hmm. I don't think I like the new take on orks. All this talk of layered support sounds great in many games, but GW's never been very strong with synergy. It feels like it could very easily be bad on either end (not enough layering is pointless, or too much breaks things).

It did work (so far) for Age of Sigmar.

 A Watcher In The Dark wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Hmm. I don't think I like the new take on orks. All this talk of layered support sounds great in many games, but GW's never been very strong with synergy. It feels like it could very easily be bad on either end (not enough layering is pointless, or too much breaks things).

It did work (so far) for Age of Sigmar.

That's good to know that they've had some degree of success there.

I am deeply saddened by the lack of news for Feral Ork (or anything about Klanz in general) in the teaser. I mean I appreciate the news, but nothing so far seems to suggest we're going to see factions make their way into the Ork army.

That said after reading Engine of Mork last night I might be feeling the tingle of a Waaagh forming....

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Hmm. I don't think I like the new take on orks. All this talk of layered support sounds great in many games, but GW's never been very strong with synergy. It feels like it could very easily be bad on either end (not enough layering is pointless, or too much breaks things).

Read up on Bloodbound and Bonesplittaz for AoS. Really strong layered synergies that do extremely well in casual and competitive games.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

FNP is going to be much rarer, and has it been discussed yet if "FNP" rolls are made against the To Wound roll (so can potentially negate all D6 Dmg?) or against individual wounds (so can save 2 wounds but the other 4 from the lascannon get through)?

Was just saying, you said its enhanced... its not enhanced its worse than now for normal boyz as they typically dont get shot by high S weapons

Now a painboy can cover up two mobs of 30. Maybe there's ability stacking? Or even army specific stratagems to boost your resilience.

Also keep in mind that Boyz get their t-shirt saves against a broader range of weapons now, which means a lower FNP is not as big of a deal.

'Ancient' is indeed the title of the standard bearer, but considering that some of the primaris marines we have seen have service studs, I doubt all of them are fresh from the vat. They said it was possible to covert existing marines into primaris, so It would make sense if at least the command cadre were such converts.

I like that Big Choppas deal 2 damage standard. That's nice.

 Crimson wrote:
'Ancient' is indeed the title of the standard bearer, but considering that some of the primaris marines we have seen have service studs, I doubt all of them are fresh from the vat. They said it was possible to covert existing marines into primaris, so It would make sense if at least the command cadre were such converts.

When founding new chapters they take vets from existing ones and use them to lead the new chapter, right?

I could see the same thing being done for the Primaris guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I like that Big Choppas deal 2 damage standard. That's nice.

Yup. Good set of rolls means a dead Primaris with each attack.

Justyn wrote:

And again, power level doesn't care about options. Points will. It is irrelevant to put the biggest gun on something and then compare PL.

They explicitly said that Power Level considers taking the most powerful options. Not doesn't care about options.

Yeaaa...No.

Power Levels are a great way to very quickly get a roughly balanced game organised and started, but they do not account for the various wargear options and upgrades a unit can have. For this level of granularity, you have points.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/12/new-warhammer-40000-points-power-levels-may12gw-homepage-post-4/

Those sound like some fun and orky ideas. Combined with no longer removing from the front and being able to advance and charge or teleport and charge(confirmed re-roll charge distance for orks).

Welcome changes that still feel fluffy for Orks while adding in some power

You know, hearing some comments i love how the chat has swung from 8th edition favoring MSU to favoring hordes!

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Internet is loving to photoshop the new kids on the block in different colors and frankly I think it's actually helping make them look better than they do in the promotional shots:


I don't want to sound like I'm hating on the Ultramarines, I mean I LIKE the color blue, but something about it doesn't seem to work on the Primaris Marines like other colors do.

That photoshop with the black helmet is just awesome!

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Hmm. I don't think I like the new take on orks. All this talk of layered support sounds great in many games, but GW's never been very strong with synergy. It feels like it could very easily be bad on either end (not enough layering is pointless, or too much breaks things).

It sounds very positional to me, which is perfect. If I make a mistake and move models out of synergy, I should pay for it. Leave it to the general to get it right.

 Latro_ wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
ORKS UP

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/25/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-orks/

From the sounds of it they've fixed all of Ork's major issues


- Only formerly AP4 and better ignores their armour now
- enhanced survivability if stacking Painboy and Mek
- More killy in combat
- Much much faster if taking a warboss
- Morale no longer an issue
- 4th Ed MOB RULE with no Ld10 cap.

No painboy and mek is now worse its currently 5+ inv and 5+ fnp
Now its 5+ inv and 6+ ignore the wound.

Looks like they have the same attacks in combat

No faster if taking a warboss, a warrghh in the current book lets you run and charge

LD is the best bit.

but my favourite is the Warboss’s WAAAGH! ability, which allows friendly Ork units within 6″ to charge even if they advanced.

It's not once per battle there chief

oops, misread, sorry

Lord Kragan wrote:
You know, hearing some comments i love how the chat has swung from 8th edition favoring MSU to favoring hordes!

Its been a running theme

"SHOOTING IS BROKEN"
"SHOOTING IS DEAD, MELEE IS GOING TO RULE"
"HORDES ARE TRASH MSU RULEZ"
"HORDES ARE THE T**S! MSU IS DEAD"

Nob warbikers are good now especially with big choppa change.
Truck boys took a hit with its small capacity and new mob rules large mob reliance.
Man missiles took a hit with trukks killing them on a 1 when it explodes.
People way to optomistic w these changes when one of our better lists last edition was already green tide which was already fearless, 5+ fnp on everyone and had the entire army move run and charge every turn.
And this list was still slow moving and cumbersome and was easily mowed down with 7th ed anti infantry weapons and 8th edition only seems to make those weapons much stronger.
Orks still lack mobility.
Orks don't have to worry about challenges but snipers will wreck the characters that improve orks.
I foresee nob bikers and manz in transports still being our best options and large blobs of boys are still to slow and truck boys still to vulnerable to morale and low durability.

If you're worried about explosions, start punting your MANZ around with Weirdboyz.

 Deadshot wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:
You know, hearing some comments i love how the chat has swung from 8th edition favoring MSU to favoring hordes!

Its been a running theme

"SHOOTING IS BROKEN"
"SHOOTING IS DEAD, MELEE IS GOING TO RULE"
"HORDES ARE TRASH MSU RULEZ"
"HORDES ARE THE T**S! MSU IS DEAD"

It's almost like we don't have the whole picture yet or something

Funny that people are complaining about the ork faction focus, they literally leaked way more then most of the others and it ALL helps improve them greatly.

People keep ignoring the changes to the core rules that also help, like no more exploding trucks, which can also BTW assault with all those gubbinz! The fact that a painboy now effects nearby units is huge. Again, lets complain that it went from 5+ FNP to 6+ while ignoring the fact he can confer it to any number of units in range, even if that's two mobs that big. Oh and lets totally leave out the wierdboy and his ability to auto take a power that is basically gate of infinity +1

I think this edition is favouring multiple small hordes with strong shooting in close combat

 JohnU wrote:
If you're worried about explosions, start punting your MANZ around with Weirdboyz.

I agree, this and nob bikers seem like the best lists especially if zhardsnark gives bikes additional bonuses.
I'm just not sold on trukk boys or slow moving hordes.
We still need to see the bigger picture with dread mobs and FW vehicles or squiggoths.

gungo wrote:
Nob warbikers are good now especially with big choppa change.
Truck boys took a hit with its small capacity and new mob rules large mob reliance.
Man missiles took a hit with trukks killing them on a 1 when it explodes.
People way to optomistic w these changes when one of our better lists last edition was already green tide which was already fearless, 5+ fnp on everyone and had the entire army move run and charge every turn.
And this list was still slow moving and cumbersome and was easily mowed down with 7th ed anti infantry weapons and 8th edition only seems to make those weapons much stronger.
Orks still lack mobility.
Orks don't have to worry about challenges but snipers will wreck the characters that improve orks.
I foresee nob bikers and manz in transports still being our best options and large blobs of boys are still to slow and truck boys still to vulnerable to morale and low durability.

The thing is people we worried about what mechanics would keep Orks in the fight so this calms some fears.

Also, which anti-infantry weapons got better? Bolters, HBs, Flamers, etc....they're all the same. You just have armor against most of them now.

I'm sure Orks will have their own version of a command squad. TruKK Boys can use a big mob's LD, which you can teleport (likely with a little difficulty).

Justyn wrote:

And again, power level doesn't care about options. Points will. It is irrelevant to put the biggest gun on something and then compare PL.



They explicitly said that Power Level considers taking the most powerful options. Not doesn't care about options.

Yeaaa...No.


Power Levels are a great way to very quickly get a roughly balanced game organised and started, but they do not account for the various wargear options and upgrades a unit can have. For this level of granularity, you have points.


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/12/new-warhammer-40000-points-power-levels-may12gw-homepage-post-4/

And yet:

Q: So using power points you can equip whatever you want to your squads, how does that not stop imbalance?
A: That's right. The Power Level assumes you are taking a pretty souped up version of that unit. You should feel free to take anything you like on that unit if you are playing Power Levels.

gungo wrote:
Nob warbikers are good now especially with big choppa change.
Truck boys took a hit with its small capacity and new mob rules large mob reliance.
Man missiles took a hit with trukks killing them on a 1 when it explodes.
People way to optomistic w these changes when one of our better lists last edition was already green tide which was already fearless, 5+ fnp on everyone and had the entire army move run and charge every turn.
And this list was still slow moving and cumbersome and was easily mowed down with 7th ed anti infantry weapons and 8th edition only seems to make those weapons much stronger.
Orks still lack mobility.
Orks don't have to worry about challenges but snipers will wreck the characters that improve orks.
I foresee nob bikers and manz in transports still being our best options and large blobs of boys are still to slow and truck boys still to vulnerable to morale and low durability.

LMAO, seriously think about a strategy before claiming things are lack luster. Your truck boyz have NUMEROUS ways around moral just from that tiny leak. A nearby warboss is one fix, another is having a bigger mob in a battle wagon to get mid field to confer its higher LD OR the biggest one where you simply take a wierd boy and teleport a bubble of leadership 30 wherever you want it.

Then theres is the part where you haven't seen 99% of the ork rules yet


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
I think this edition is favouring multiple small hordes with strong shooting in close combat

I think this edition favors nothing and all things can be made viable, yet people from some reason just like every aspect of life, feel the need to fit things into specific boxes.

Daedalus81 wrote:

gungo wrote:
Nob warbikers are good now especially with big choppa change.
Truck boys took a hit with its small capacity and new mob rules large mob reliance.
Man missiles took a hit with trukks killing them on a 1 when it explodes.
People way to optomistic w these changes when one of our better lists last edition was already green tide which was already fearless, 5+ fnp on everyone and had the entire army move run and charge every turn.
And this list was still slow moving and cumbersome and was easily mowed down with 7th ed anti infantry weapons and 8th edition only seems to make those weapons much stronger.
Orks still lack mobility.
Orks don't have to worry about challenges but snipers will wreck the characters that improve orks.
I foresee nob bikers and manz in transports still being our best options and large blobs of boys are still to slow and truck boys still to vulnerable to morale and low durability.

The thing is people we worried about what mechanics would keep Orks in the fight so this calms some fears.

Also, which anti-infantry weapons got better? Bolters, HBs, Flamers, etc....they're all the same. You just have armor against most of them now.

I'm sure Orks will have their own version of a command squad. TruKK Boys can use a big mob's LD, which you can teleport (likely with a little difficulty).

the shots on everything especially anti infantry went up by a lot. Flamers removal of templates wasn't a big issue since they hit more reliably. I guess you don't need to spread your greentide out 2in each. I'm not saying orks are dead. We obviously don't have the full picture but it's not all rose covered glasses here.

Indeed, it really feels like they are focusing almost anything viable in some way while also keeping to the fluff. I really appreciate the direction they are taking and a lot of things make the game more fun to play.

Now the kitouts on my Deathwatch actually might make sense haha. Worth putting a stormshield or two in.

We have no idea on points yet. I am betting that a lot of the more powerful upgrades will be more expensive, things like power claws and power fists, while regular power weapons or basic upgrades (like the big choppa) will be more common and cheaper. I expect that basic troops will be relatively cheap while heavy and special weapons are going to be very expensive(as it should be IMO). As we saw with the multi-melta it was 27 points compared to the 10 it was before. I think a lot of Eldar players are going to be surprised when they see how much their specialist units are going to cost going forward since they have the upgrades built into their profiles.

Orks have their leadership problems addressed, they have improved mobility/ability to charge built into their rules, and they get to pick casualties so no more removing from the front. Challenges are out initiative is out. They are more likely to get a save

I am not saying they are going to dominate but it seems like a lot of the issues they were dealing with have been addressed.