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 Lockark wrote:
I just got on good word that 30k will move to 8th ed. But their will be a wait until it happens.

Sadly this also means that untill the 8th ed relaunch, GW store operators will not be allowing people to play 30k games in their store after June 16th, because they will not be selling the 7th ed rule book, and don't want people playing with stuff they don't sell. It's going to leave 30k gameing in a wired limbo untill they update it.


I'm guessing the idea is that they don't want to 40k community to get split between 7th/8th like fantesy did dureing the WHFB/AoS transition, so don't want to support a OOP rule set. So I totally understand their choice from a marketing standpoint. It just sucks to get shoved to the side like that.

It kind of makes sense that there would be a delay as FW has a LOT of stuff to rebalance for the new edition (and hopefully playtest as well).

Their stuff based on existing units (alternate Riptides and the like) will likely be updated pretty quickly, but I can imagine other stuff (like the Manta and Warlord) will take some time to properly update which could delay 30k a bit longer.

 streetsamurai wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
don't like that orks have so many bonus to move and charge faster. They are not eldat, it doens't fit the army. Would have like much better for them to have a rule a la hammer of wrath instead

You don't play Orks, do you?

No, but they were my first love back in the days. Still, I don't see what this have to do with anything. You do that they are other way to boost a cc army that to give them more movement?

I was actually indexing the fact that something like hammer of wrath isn't going to help them actually get to combat, which was the primary issue. Making Orks competitive means some sort of mechanism to reliably get them into combat, not just buffing their combat effectiveness (which is already greatly helped by the new assault rules anyway). Rules that simulate a group of nutters who will happily charge through the worst kind of hell if means they get to crump someone is what they needed, and the glimpse of the rules that we have from the Faction Focus seem to represent that pretty well IMO.

If they hadn't done something about movement the rest of the changes wouldn't have mattered much I don't think.

Concerning why assault armies seem to be getting "faster" on the table: when an army's entire point of being is to ultimately get into face punching range, it has to have the ability to get into range to make the charge. Melee has an incredibly short range compared to shooting. In a game where some units can kite assault units, it's imperative that melee units have the ability to offset this somewhat through abilities to close the gap and actually hit the enemy.

This means that re-rollable charge ranges, the ability to advance and assault and possibly even high movement will be used individually, or possibly even all at the same time.

That said, Orks in 40k will likely be bound by the same Movement stat of Orruks: 5" for Orks, 4" for Gretchin. This means the speed an Ork gains is through the WAAAAAGH (advance and charge) and 'Ere We Go! (re-roll charge ranges). This gives them a large threat range and increases their ability to make charges above 8", but doesn't actually increase their movement stat. Basically it lets them represent how Orks will run pell mell into enemy lines.

Plus 1 to both you guys!

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
lol, is somenone really complaining that others use the terms MSU, spam and tier?
And does he really think that these terms won't apply to 8th edition?

I think some of them will change meanings or end up being applied differently than before, but no, the terms in general will likely stay around.

I look forward to seeing what the new "-star" armies look like.

"Star" armies will be the new abusive, stacked synergies on alpha-strike.

For comparison, I won quite a few Age of Sigmar tournaments (including some modestly sized ones), using Tomb Kings. The army was built around Necro Knights and Chariots whose keywords made them particularly conducive to receiving buffs. Between Settra the Imperishable, a Herald with Banner, a Necrotect, and a Liche Priest, they were able to charge anything on the table, on turn 1, recovering two full models every turn, hitting and wounding on 3+ re-rollable, and generating additional attacks on a 4+ to hit.

That is what most of AoS is at the highest level, which at least isn't quite as net-listy as 40k 7th, as here positioning and such matters and is a skill unto itself, as is adapting to a mission, or when things go wrong.

But yeah... the distinction between tiers of armies in AoS is entirely based on who has access to decent synergies.

Also not that several of the old anti infantry weapons are now only wounding on a 3+ and several now allow the t-shirt save.

Anything strength 6-7 ap5-6 Now allow 1/3 orkz to survive where they wouldn't before.

That is HUGE! Now combine that with the new overlapping bonuses, and the facts that a 30 boy squad will give their leadership to everything within 6" means morale will be held steady in the early game for sure. You can also shunt the warboss anywhere you need boyz to get stuck in.

With layered defensive bonuses you wound have to spend command points keeping boyz alive, which is a pretty big bonus as well.

I believe the changes presented are going to be the bee's knees!

Does anyone think the Dorkanaut will get increased transport capacity? That's one of the things I am definitely hoping for... maybe even a fire point. What I want in there are meganobz, but you couldn't do it in 7th unless one of the 3 was killed.

Also, Reece said in his article to "get ready to dust off those killa kanz." Previously I've heard him say... maybe when their codex hit that they really got a kick in the balls from being moved from elite to heavy and decreased strength of the KanKlaw. I have to say it is my most sincere hope that kans get moved to troops. Deffdreds go to elite and Dorkanauts stay in Heavy. That would solve a lot of problems to get the models that inspired me to play orks out of the storage box.

Lastly: Did anyone notice, when he was talking about the KFF he used the word "unit" rather than "models?" Maybe just an oversight but since we are dissecting everything now, I thought that was interesting.

All in all. I think orks will be more playable. Hopefully I will be able to fields some clanking, diesel fume belching, bipedal dakka rattlers by the end of June.

Maybe a Faction specific force org of Dread Mob?

Regardless... I think I must finally bid adieu to the best things that happened to Ork meta in 7th... Cheap BuzzGob Stompa, and GreenTide. Goodbye old friends...

 Verviedi wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
As others have mentioned, it's funny to see the monotonous meta-dorks twist and turn in a desperate attempt to fit 8th edition into their existing pigeon holes. As we don't have all the information yet nobody can say for sure... however; with the play-tested and newly costed simultaneous release of all units this edition, perhaps the tedious terms such as 'tier, spam, no-brainer, MSU, blobs etc' can be retired. I understand why the meta-dorks desperately cling to these monotonous descriptors, as it can give the illusion they actually know what they are talking about.

All of those words are common descriptors that describe things that will always be in the game, no matter how much GW changes it. (Unless they remove units, and make every model its own unit) What the hell are you smoking?

If not one name it will be another. Unfortunately so long as any game exists so will players who will literally do anything to abuse the game just to win. EVen for fun which is pathetic. Every time I get annoyed I remember the people who are serious about smash bros are the worst of all and its no so bad LOL

 Hollow wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
As others have mentioned, it's funny to see the monotonous meta-dorks twist and turn in a desperate attempt to fit 8th edition into their existing pigeon holes. As we don't have all the information yet nobody can say for sure... however; with the play-tested and newly costed simultaneous release of all units this edition, perhaps the tedious terms such as 'tier, spam, no-brainer, MSU, blobs etc' can be retired. I understand why the meta-dorks desperately cling to these monotonous descriptors, as it can give the illusion they actually know what they are talking about.

All of those words are common descriptors that describe things that will always be in the game, no matter how much GW changes it. (Unless they remove units, and make every model its own unit) What the hell are you smoking?

Incredibly strong skunk. My point is that people are desperately trying to place factions into tiers with each new piece of information. If this edition is truly balanced, then the concept of 'tiers' evaporates and hopefully the stigma that people have mentioned in regards to playing particular factions goes with it.

I agree with you condemning the game with out all of the rules math hammering 10% of a game that's not been released yet, tbh they are bad for the hobby I hope to god people who have not dipped there toe into the hobby come to this forum and read the statements made by these "meta dorks" its just all doom and gloom, I can understand being a little upset about your tau or elder not being as devastating as they were in a previous edition, but surely watching old players like my self actually come back to the hobby with the new rules out weighs reking face, you have to think of the greater good (see what I did there) more opponents for you to destroy.
just give the math hammer a rest until the rules are released then go crazy, don't sit and predict which army will be king with a hand full of rules its IMPOSSIBLE remember curios eyes are watching.

 doktor_g wrote:


Lastly: Did anyone notice, when he was talking about the KFF he used the word "unit" rather than "models?" Maybe just an oversight but since we are dissecting everything now, I thought that was interesting.
.

A lot of AoS rules work by having just part of the unit within a certain distance of the buff. This is likely the case here. The actual wording could be different though.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:


"Star" armies will be the new abusive, stacked synergies on alpha-strike.

For comparison, I won quite a few Age of Sigmar tournaments (including some modestly sized ones), using Tomb Kings. The army was built around Necro Knights and Chariots whose keywords made them particularly conducive to receiving buffs. Between Settra the Imperishable, a Herald with Banner, a Necrotect, and a Liche Priest, they were able to charge anything on the table, on turn 1, recovering two full models every turn, hitting and wounding on 3+ re-rollable, and generating additional attacks on a 4+ to hit.

That is what most of AoS is at the highest level, which at least isn't quite as net-listy as 40k 7th, as here positioning and such matters and is a skill unto itself, as is adapting to a mission, or when things go wrong.

But yeah... the distinction between tiers of armies in AoS is entirely based on who has access to decent synergies.

Yeah, this seems like the most probable outcome for the new 40k

 Kanluwen wrote:

 kestral wrote:
Well, battleshock appears to be one of those rules that only applies to OTHER PEOPLE, since Ork Ld in 10-20 range make it a moot point, synapse makes it a moot point, small elite units are pretty much off the hook, death guard plague walkers don't take it, etc. Who will be the unlucky few for whom it is really a problem? Small ork units I suppose.

This is what people were claiming early on with AoS, as Stormcast Eternals and Khorne Bloodbound both had ways of making things immune.

Remember that the immunity for both, effectively, comes from circumstances.
An Ork unit of 30 that suffers 10 casualties from shooting might not be too hurt by it...but an Ork unit of 30 that loses 10 casualties from shooting and another 10-12 from close combat?
A unit of Hormagaunts that has its Synapse umbrella shot out from them?

That's a whole different kettle of fish.

It's almost like when the battle starts, morale is high and not a factor, but as it drags on, leaders die, losses mount, morale drops and becomes more of a factor and more troops give up/run off. Seems rather organic and fluffy.

While I can agree that internet negativity can really weigh things down and turn people off, the notion that new players have slogged through 350 pages of this and might be deciding not to play based on my having a less than favorable view of the nuance of some new rule seems... ...far fetched. "Think of the children!" isn't fair in this context. Speculating about how things will work is a big part of this thread after all. Some of those speculations will be negative, many will be wrong (including some of the positive ones).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Battleshock seems mostly to speed up play by finishing off battered units. I'm Ok with that, as long as it is well balanced, though I prefer having units fall back. Since you can fall back from combat, we sill see some of the ebb and flow I like it seems, just voluntarily.

 kestral wrote:
While I can agree that internet negativity can really weigh things down and turn people off, the notion that new players have slogged through 350 pages of this and might be deciding not to play based on my having a less than favorable view of the nuance of some new rule seems... ...far fetched. "Think of the children!" isn't fair in this context. Speculating about how things will work is a big part of this thread after all. Some of those speculations will be negative, many will be wrong (including some of the positive ones).

Why slog through all the pages when Rippy keeps the OP up to date with all the information we have?

I find it amusing when 'balanced' is qualified as 'not-balanced' unless it is 'perfectly balanced' or 'truly balanced'. Consider: 'balanced enough for me to enjoy, regardless of which army I like to play'.

Kanluwen wrote:

 kestral wrote:
Well, battleshock appears to be one of those rules that only applies to OTHER PEOPLE, since Ork Ld in 10-20 range make it a moot point, synapse makes it a moot point, small elite units are pretty much off the hook, death guard plague walkers don't take it, etc. Who will be the unlucky few for whom it is really a problem? Small ork units I suppose.

This is what people were claiming early on with AoS, as Stormcast Eternals and Khorne Bloodbound both had ways of making things immune.

Remember that the immunity for both, effectively, comes from circumstances.
An Ork unit of 30 that suffers 10 casualties from shooting might not be too hurt by it...but an Ork unit of 30 that loses 10 casualties from shooting and another 10-12 from close combat?
A unit of Hormagaunts that has its Synapse umbrella shot out from them?

That's a whole different kettle of fish.

This is a really good way to show how these large armies like Orks start off in high spirits, ready to kill, but as the fight wears on, they start to waver. Conversely, you have armies like Space Marines who are more likely to keep fighting to the bitter end (barring some unlucky morale rolls).

 kestral wrote:
While I can agree that internet negativity can really weigh things down and turn people off, the notion that new players have slogged through 350 pages of this and might be deciding not to play based on my having a less than favorable view of the nuance of some new rule seems... ...far fetched. "Think of the children!" isn't fair in this context. Speculating about how things will work is a big part of this thread after all. Some of those speculations will be negative, many will be wrong (including some of the positive ones).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Battleshock seems mostly to speed up play by finishing off battered units. I'm Ok with that, as long as it is well balanced, though I prefer having units fall back. Since you can fall back from combat, we sill see some of the ebb and flow I like it seems, just voluntarily.

I can't wait for battleshock to replace morale tests.

7th: roll, fail, roll fall back, move, next turn roll again, 3" move, snapshots (but tier 1 ITC armies are all immune)

8th: roll, fail, pick up X number of models

 EnTyme wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

 kestral wrote:
Well, battleshock appears to be one of those rules that only applies to OTHER PEOPLE, since Ork Ld in 10-20 range make it a moot point, synapse makes it a moot point, small elite units are pretty much off the hook, death guard plague walkers don't take it, etc. Who will be the unlucky few for whom it is really a problem? Small ork units I suppose.

This is what people were claiming early on with AoS, as Stormcast Eternals and Khorne Bloodbound both had ways of making things immune.

Remember that the immunity for both, effectively, comes from circumstances.
An Ork unit of 30 that suffers 10 casualties from shooting might not be too hurt by it...but an Ork unit of 30 that loses 10 casualties from shooting and another 10-12 from close combat?
A unit of Hormagaunts that has its Synapse umbrella shot out from them?

That's a whole different kettle of fish.

This is a really good way to show how these large armies like Orks start off in high spirits, ready to kill, but as the fight wears on, they start to waver. Conversely, you have armies like Space Marines who are more likely to keep fighting to the bitter end (barring some unlucky morale rolls).

It also is a great way for the elite armies with fire discipline and target prioritization to really be shown.

With characters being the ones granting these bubbles, if the characters get sniped out or brought down...it's going to hurt the overall flow of the battle.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 doktor_g wrote:


Lastly: Did anyone notice, when he was talking about the KFF he used the word "unit" rather than "models?" Maybe just an oversight but since we are dissecting everything now, I thought that was interesting.
.

A lot of AoS rules work by having just part of the unit within a certain distance of the buff. This is likely the case here. The actual wording could be different though.

It would be a lot more sensible for it to operate on a unit rather than model basis. Checking to see how many models in a unit are within the buff range is just adding unnecessary complication to the system.

I love how GW was all about a new morale system that will effect everyone.

Remember this?
"The new Morale phase is simple, and only happens once per player turn, at the end of all your other phases. It will apply to almost every unit,"
or this
"There will be very few units indeed that will not feel its effects."
or how about this
"Its no longer all or nothing, and it affects everyone."

So far all I'm seeing is how the morale mechanic is still largely ignored.

 oni wrote:
I love how GW was all about a new morale system that will effect everyone.

Remember this?
"The new Morale phase is simple, and only happens once per player turn, at the end of all your other phases. It will apply to almost every unit,"
or this
"There will be very few units indeed that will not feel its effects."
or how about this
"Its no longer all or nothing, and it affects everyone."

So far all I'm seeing is how the morale mechanic is still largely ignored.

Nids and Orks mitigate the Battleshock phase but can still be forced to feel it. They don't completely ignore it like Fearless units did Morale checks.

 oni wrote:
I love how GW was all about a new morale system that will effect everyone.

Remember this?
"The new Morale phase is simple, and only happens once per player turn, at the end of all your other phases. It will apply to almost every unit,"
or this
"There will be very few units indeed that will not feel its effects."
or how about this
"Its no longer all or nothing, and it affects everyone."

So far all I'm seeing is how the morale mechanic is still largely ignored.

You can inflict massed cassualties on ork units with ease. And not all units may be within mob rule range.

Battleshock affects everyone.
Horde factions like nids, orks and AM do have some mechanics to help against it. This is a double edged sword, they are incredibly difficult to take down if they keep the protection, but go down real fast if you remove it (take down the big ork unit, the synapse, the commissars etc...)

Lord Kragan wrote:

You can inflict massed cassualties on ork units with ease. And not all units may be within mob rule range.

Sounds like a tactical blunder.

yeah im fine with battle shock as it is.

 Desubot wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

You can inflict massed cassualties on ork units with ease. And not all units may be within mob rule range.

Sounds like a tactical blunder.

yeah im fine with battle shock as it is.

Not really. Imagine you've inflicted serious casualties to one big mob. The other player's forced to remove a flank or else his special character may be shot down to pieces as he is next in line. Turns out there was, say, a unit of warbikers there. BAM there you go.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

You can inflict massed cassualties on ork units with ease. And not all units may be within mob rule range.

Sounds like a tactical blunder.

yeah im fine with battle shock as it is.

Not really. Imagine you've inflicted serious casualties to one big mob. The other player's forced to remove a flank or else his special character may be shot down to pieces as he is next in line. Turns out there was, say, a unit of warbikers there. BAM there you go.

If some one is being forced to make a choice then he was out played. and thats a good thing for the game.

it might be getting Off topic though

 Desubot wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

You can inflict massed cassualties on ork units with ease. And not all units may be within mob rule range.

Sounds like a tactical blunder.

yeah im fine with battle shock as it is.

Not really. Imagine you've inflicted serious casualties to one big mob. The other player's forced to remove a flank or else his special character may be shot down to pieces as he is next in line. Turns out there was, say, a unit of warbikers there. BAM there you go.

If some one is being forced to make a choice then he was out played. and thats a good thing for the game.

it might be getting Off topic though

The game is all about choices. Where to move, who to shoot, where to pull casualties from, if you should charge, ect.

The fact that being out played is something happening on the table top due to tactics and not just list building is a wonderful thing for the game.

Community: orks have horrible, unplayable leadership mechanics!
GW: we got you with 4 different leadership negation mechanics
Community: leadership doesn't matter enough!

 buddha wrote:
Community: orks have horrible, unplayable leadership mechanics!
GW: we got you with 4 different leadership negation mechanics
Community: leadership doesn't matter enough!

They also kept a rule that makes charges more reliable, and made WAAAGH and every turn use rule (granted it's now a smaller bubble, but being able to first turn a bunch of units is still good even if the entire army can't do it at the same time).

OP is once again up to date, haven't read last few pages as I got over the nastiness/bickering, so let me know by PM if I missed anything.

Thanks to ClockworkZion for #17!!!