40k New Edition Summary - 14th June 17: Lord Duncan paints Primaris in Gravis/non-codex SM focus

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**Caederes**

Therion wrote:

I didn't mean that you did. Sorry for the confusion. I'm just saying, it seems awfully strong at least on surface level. People will probably do a ton of analysis, math based and otherwise, in the coming months to discover where the cheese is. I'm just now looking at what high toughness good save wounds cost in general. And if you can get T7 3+/5++ wounds that fly and fight pretty damn well for a bit over 10 points a pop, you'll probably see quite a few of those ^_^

That's on me for not being clear, sorry! It is looking good for the Heldrake though. No more firing arcs/fixed moves to worry about, it is both easier (no penalties to hitting it meaning you can shoot normally at it and charge it) and harder (more wounds/Toughness/an armor save) to destroy, and it is a super fast melee unit that at worst can be used to tie up enemy units as early as the first turn. I'm guessing it will only have 3 max Attacks so that it's not so much a pure damage dealer as it is more of a complete package - it does decently to good in every aspect and is hard to kill for its points while being hyper mobile. 30" base move is...amazing.

**Tolp**

Therion wrote:
rvd1ofakind wrote:
I just want Daemons to be able to use Heldrakes in their detachment. Since I accidentally ordered Heldrakes and then saw I can't use them without CSM or KDK :(

Backstory: I asked "good anti-air for Daemons" and pretty much everyone said Heldrake

I'm not seeing the problem? As far as I understand, you build your army from multiple detachments. Just take one from Daemons and another that allows a bunch of fast attack (Heldrakes) for the smallest additional unit tax as possible. The Outrider detachment lets you take 6 Heldrakes and you only have to take one HQ to accompany them. I'm sure you can find something useful.

Poor advice as Heldrake isn´t Fast Attack. (It´s a flyer so you can take a detachment of them without any taxes).

**tneva82**

Therion wrote:
How many attacks do vehicles with * for A get in close combat? Both the Heldrake and Chaos Land Raider dataslates show * for A value but the degrade box doesn't show A anywhere. Is it outside the camera shot?

The stock Heldrake looks awfully strong for me. T7 12 wounds, 3+ save, 5+ invulnerable, flies, shoots, fights in close combat and does D3 wounds per hit. For 138 points. And it heals one wound automatically at the start of every turn. It means that each T7 3+/5+ wound costs about 10 points each if you assume it heals even once. Sounds pretty efficient to me, even with multiwound guns all over the place.

Like, for comparison, the LR is T8 16 wounds with no invulnerable and no healing and costs about three times as much kitted up. It does have that 2+ save though, and carries some dudes.

I would be more hyped about quaranteed T1 charge on anywhere.

Anyway is the 138 before or after guns are added?

**rvd1ofakind**

Therion wrote:
rvd1ofakind wrote:
I just want Daemons to be able to use Heldrakes in their detachment. Since I accidentally ordered Heldrakes and then saw I can't use them without CSM or KDK :(

Backstory: I asked "good anti-air for Daemons" and pretty much everyone said Heldrake

I'm not seeing the problem? As far as I understand, you build your army from multiple detachments. Just take one from Daemons and another that allows a bunch of fast attack (Heldrakes) for the smallest additional unit tax as possible. The Outrider detachment lets you take 6 Heldrakes and you only have to take one HQ to accompany them. I'm sure you can find something useful.

It's a flyer not fast attack. Meaning, as Daemons have next to no flyers, I'll probably have to buy a third drake...
Either way, KDK had access to them. So what happens here now that there is no KDK...

**Therion**

Tolp wrote:
Therion wrote:
rvd1ofakind wrote:
I just want Daemons to be able to use Heldrakes in their detachment. Since I accidentally ordered Heldrakes and then saw I can't use them without CSM or KDK :(

Backstory: I asked "good anti-air for Daemons" and pretty much everyone said Heldrake

I'm not seeing the problem? As far as I understand, you build your army from multiple detachments. Just take one from Daemons and another that allows a bunch of fast attack (Heldrakes) for the smallest additional unit tax as possible. The Outrider detachment lets you take 6 Heldrakes and you only have to take one HQ to accompany them. I'm sure you can find something useful.

Poor advice as Heldrake isn´t Fast Attack. (It´s a flyer so you can take a detachment of them without any taxes).

It wasn't advice. I've seen about 10% of the leaks so I'm not sure what's what. I just wasn't seeing the problem since as far as I understood he was worried he can't use them. I still don't see the problem, by the way. Thanks for stopping by though.

tneva82 wrote:
I would be more hyped about quaranteed T1 charge on anywhere.

Anyway is the 138 before or after guns are added?

I presume it's before weapons, but the thing doesn't have that many weapons and the stock one is pretty meh so I guess it'll stay really cheap.

**Charax**

A lot of the points disparity will be the amount of weapons each has - the Heldrake has 1, the LR has potentially 5 (2 TL Lascannons, TL HB, Havoc, Combiweapon) and can use every one of them on a different target, the heldrake is going to ruin someone's day, but only one or two units a turn, and it doesn't hit as hard as the LR's combined firepower

I'm sad to see vehicle upgrades greatly reduced, they're either "baked in" like Smoke Launchers or picked from a reduced list like Havocs. Where's our Dirge Caster option?

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

A detachment simply has to share some keywords. So a detachment could all say "chaos" and you're golden. Or, for more perks you could make sure everything in the detachment has "khorne" as a keyword as well for more synergies.

Take what you want and enjoy

**rvd1ofakind**

Therion wrote:
Tolp wrote:
Therion wrote:
rvd1ofakind wrote:
I just want Daemons to be able to use Heldrakes in their detachment. Since I accidentally ordered Heldrakes and then saw I can't use them without CSM or KDK :(

Backstory: I asked "good anti-air for Daemons" and pretty much everyone said Heldrake

I'm not seeing the problem? As far as I understand, you build your army from multiple detachments. Just take one from Daemons and another that allows a bunch of fast attack (Heldrakes) for the smallest additional unit tax as possible. The Outrider detachment lets you take 6 Heldrakes and you only have to take one HQ to accompany them. I'm sure you can find something useful.

Poor advice as Heldrake isn´t Fast Attack. (It´s a flyer so you can take a detachment of them without any taxes).

It wasn't advice. I've seen about 10% of the leaks so I'm not sure what's what. I just wasn't seeing the problem since as far as I understood he was worried he can't use them. I still don't see the problem, by the way. Thanks for stopping by though.

The problem is that I only have 2 Heldrakes and you need 3 flyers for the formation.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
A detachment simply he to share some keywords. So a detachment could all say "chaos" and you're golden. Or, for more perks you could make sure everything in the detachment has "khorne" as a keyword as well for more synergies.

Take what you want and enjoy

I just can't force myself to take something sub-optimal. If just taking 1 Heldrake will ruin the bonus - I'll treat them as unusable.

**Rippy**

It appears I am missing some Tyranid leaks, anyone know their location?

**Therion**

rvd1ofakind wrote:

The problem is that I only have 2 Heldrakes and you need 3 flyers for the formation.

Allright mate I see now. I missed the fact that the detachments actually say 0-2 flyers, etc.

Is it legal to play with just Air Wing detachments? For all your points? I guess so.

**Rippy**

rvd1ofakind wrote:
Therion wrote:
rvd1ofakind wrote:
I just want Daemons to be able to use Heldrakes in their detachment. Since I accidentally ordered Heldrakes and then saw I can't use them without CSM or KDK :(

Backstory: I asked "good anti-air for Daemons" and pretty much everyone said Heldrake

I'm not seeing the problem? As far as I understand, you build your army from multiple detachments. Just take one from Daemons and another that allows a bunch of fast attack (Heldrakes) for the smallest additional unit tax as possible. The Outrider detachment lets you take 6 Heldrakes and you only have to take one HQ to accompany them. I'm sure you can find something useful.

It's a flyer not fast attack. Meaning, as Daemons have next to no flyers, I'll probably have to buy a third drake...
Either way, KDK had access to them. So what happens here now that there is no KDK...

Run a CSM detachment as well I guess? You can run them with CSM as far as I can see.

**rvd1ofakind**

Therion wrote:
rvd1ofakind wrote:

The problem is that I only have 2 Heldrakes and you need 3 flyers for the formation.

Allright mate I see now. I missed the fact that the detachments actually say 0-2 flyers, etc.

Is it legal to play with just Air Wing detachments? For all your points? I guess so.

.

Yup. But now that flyers aren't that hard to hit - it's not that broken

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rippy wrote:
rvd1ofakind wrote:
Therion wrote:
rvd1ofakind wrote:
I just want Daemons to be able to use Heldrakes in their detachment. Since I accidentally ordered Heldrakes and then saw I can't use them without CSM or KDK :(

Backstory: I asked "good anti-air for Daemons" and pretty much everyone said Heldrake

I'm not seeing the problem? As far as I understand, you build your army from multiple detachments. Just take one from Daemons and another that allows a bunch of fast attack (Heldrakes) for the smallest additional unit tax as possible. The Outrider detachment lets you take 6 Heldrakes and you only have to take one HQ to accompany them. I'm sure you can find something useful.

It's a flyer not fast attack. Meaning, as Daemons have next to no flyers, I'll probably have to buy a third drake...
Either way, KDK had access to them. So what happens here now that there is no KDK...

Run a CSM detachment as well I guess? You can run them with CSM as far as I can see.

Fk everything to do with space marines. I don't want humans in my daemon army.

**Rippy**

I am guessing you don't know that heldrakes are literally a space marine in a flyer that has been twisted by the warp?
You already have space marines in your army.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Heldrake

**Weazel**

Space Marine vehicles are listed as "does not include wargear", does this include weapons as well? Land Raiders (and other vehicles) get pretty expensive when you add their weapons to the "base cost".

Also, anyone got stats for Demolisher Cannon?

**Iago40k**

Weazel wrote:
Space Marine vehicles are listed as "does not include wargear", does this include weapons as well? Land Raiders (and other vehicles) get pretty expensive when you add their weapons to the "base cost".

Also, anyone got stats for Demolisher Cannon?

Yeah, you need to buy weapons seperately. Razorbacks getting quite costly with their low transport capacity.

**Caederes**

Weazel wrote:
Space Marine vehicles are listed as "does not include wargear", does this include weapons as well? Land Raiders (and other vehicles) get pretty expensive when you add their weapons to the "base cost".

Also, anyone got stats for Demolisher Cannon?

All weapons have points costs, some might be 0 but you still have to pay for them if the book tells you to.
Basically, yes, a Land Raider has a base price then you have to add on the price for each of its guns even if they are a part of its stock equipment.
The Land Raider gets pricey because it puts out a lot of heavy firepower and can move and shoot without suffering the penalty for to-hit rolls with heavy weapons. It is also one of the most durable units we've seen so far and is a transport. It's safe to say the points cost is high for good reason!

**Rippy**

My Spartan Assault Tank is looking pretty bloody amazing right now, if it retains its 25 model limit... Can take 5 termies, a lord of contagion or Typhus, a sorcerer and a squad of Plague Marines in it...

**rvd1ofakind**

Rippy wrote:
I am guessing you don't know that heldrakes are literally a space marine in a flyer that has been twisted by the warp?
You already have space marines in your army.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Heldrake

I know that. I just hate how marines look. Heldrake has as much to do with marines design wise as Soul Grinder compared to a Land Raider

**Weazel**

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind the more expensive vehicles, because their powerlevel (and durability) has increased significantly. But good to know that price increases are expected. Hopefully with other armies as well. I don't mind a more infantry focused game...

**jamopower**

rvd1ofakind wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
A detachment simply he to share some keywords. So a detachment could all say "chaos" and you're golden. Or, for more perks you could make sure everything in the detachment has "khorne" as a keyword as well for more synergies.

Take what you want and enjoy

I just can't force myself to take something sub-optimal. If just taking 1 Heldrake will ruin the bonus - I'll treat them as unusable.

There hasn't been any mentions yet of keyword related bonuses, so it might be that they only come in codexes (like in AoS), meaning that for many armies the stricter keywords are just prospects of far future.

**Rippy**

Confirmed SoB leaks:
http://natfka.blogspot.com.au/2017/05/sisters-of-battle-leaks.html?m=1

**rollawaythestone**

Rippy wrote:
Confirmed SoB leaks:
http://natfka.blogspot.com.au/2017/05/sisters-of-battle-leaks.html?m=1

Oh dang, all SoB can deny the witch - that seems good. It's not going to happen often, but you'll eventually roll 5's and 6's and deny low-end powers.

**tneva82**

rollawaythestone wrote:
Rippy wrote:
Confirmed SoB leaks:
http://natfka.blogspot.com.au/2017/05/sisters-of-battle-leaks.html?m=1

Oh dang, all SoB can deny the witch - that seems good. It's not going to happen often, but you'll eventually roll 5's and 6's and deny low-end powers.

Low end that rolled low...I mean average for 2d6 is 7. He needs to roll 5 or less on 2d6 for 1d6 to be able to be greater...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and lol indeed as somebody said before rhino is tougher than dreadnought. T7, 3+, W10 vs T7, 3+, W8. Wonder what designers were thinking there.

**BrianDavion**

tneva82 wrote:
rollawaythestone wrote:
Rippy wrote:
Confirmed SoB leaks:
http://natfka.blogspot.com.au/2017/05/sisters-of-battle-leaks.html?m=1

Oh dang, all SoB can deny the witch - that seems good. It's not going to happen often, but you'll eventually roll 5's and 6's and deny low-end powers.

Low end that rolled low...I mean average for 2d6 is 7. He needs to roll 5 or less on 2d6 for 1d6 to be able to be greater...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and lol indeed as somebody said before rhino is tougher than dreadnought. T7, 3+, W10 vs T7, 3+, W8. Wonder what designers were thinking there.

in fairness the rhino IS supposed to be famed for it's durability.

that and I suspect thats a play testing issue, rhinos proably where getting popped early and fast, inflicting too many casualities, leading to GW to toughen them up in response

**casvalremdeikun**

The fact the Rhino can regain wounds is awesome. Definitely thinking I will be using Rhinos instead of Razorbacks.

**Caederes**

That and....it's a tank. A Rhino isn't supposed to be a paperweight that stops working thanks to a stiff breeze, that's why we've seen things like Venoms and Annihilation Barges have lower Toughness and Wounds than the Dreadnought. Rhinos are the go-to transport for Space Marines - you know, the Imperium's super soldiers - and it's about time they bloody well started to play like it.

**H.B.M.C.**

Some of the points are really wonky. Like the Devilfish. If I've read the blurry scans correctly, it's 101 points. Why 101? What about it required that extra point over 100? Is it vastly undercosted at 100 so they just had to push it to 101. There's another one on there that's 97 points. Why 97 and not 100, or 95?

NamelessBard wrote:
Not confirmed:

Carnifex
67 points M7" WS4+ S6 T7 W8 A4 3+

It doesn't degrade
if charge does mortal wound on a 4+
Crushing claws are Sx2 AP-3 damage 3 Scything Talons S: User AP-3 damage 3 Bonemace S8 Ap-1 d3 damage.
If with 2 weapons +1 attacks
2 Scything talons reroll 1 to hit.

Thank you.

That doesn't seem too bad. The save could probably stand to be better, but T7 W8 is better than he used to be. Still, depends on the multi-damage weapons now render all those extra wounds moot.

**tneva82**

BrianDavion wrote:
in fairness the rhino IS supposed to be famed for it's durability.

that and I suspect thats a play testing issue, rhinos proably where getting popped early and fast, inflicting too many casualities, leading to GW to toughen them up in response

And dreadnoughts aren't supposed to be paper thin either. Actually logically they SHOULD be pretty damn tough seeing they are host to one of the chapters heroes. Loss of which is grave loss indeed. Dreadnoughts shouldn't be dime in a dozen models.

**Rippy**

@ H.B.M.C: my guess it that once you take the forced upgrades, that 101 points + 7 + 7 point upgrade makes it 115 (example numbers)

**jamopower**

tneva82 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
in fairness the rhino IS supposed to be famed for it's durability.

that and I suspect thats a play testing issue, rhinos proably where getting popped early and fast, inflicting too many casualities, leading to GW to toughen them up in response

And dreadnoughts aren't supposed to be paper thin either. Actually logically they SHOULD be pretty damn tough seeing they are host to one of the chapters heroes. Loss of which is grave loss indeed. Dreadnoughts shouldn't be dime in a dozen models.

T7 is still pretty damn tough in the whole context of the units.