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I was originally assuming that meant the DG wasn't getting much beyond the starter box (so no unique terminators) but with morty confirmed it looks like they (and most likely the primaris judging by space marine codex list) will be getting early releases.

That or there is a deathguard/primaris section we haven't seen yet, with units unique to them (as the blood angels seem to have).

New Oblits are mobile short-ranged centurions. They can fire after running and deep strike, and cost the same 65 points for similar firepower, but can't purchase any additional guns and have invul instead of toughness (though they are only going to use the invul against Ap-4 meltagun-level weaponry).

Rolling 3D3 might not be that bad, if you roll for strength after to hit rolls and for damage after saves, it won't be that confusing.

But I want to see what Possessed now are.

All the inexplicable nerfs point to a large Chaos release wave soon to sell us new minis that will be actually worth fielding.

SilverAlien wrote:
The fact I can literally see half the unique rules for the deathguard is mildly infuriating, wish we could see the entire page. Oh well.

For everyone hating on obliterates look at it as if you have a short range autocannon that gain random buffs each turn. Which... might be okay? Depending on how much autocannon havocs cost (and how useful autocannons are in general).

Also worth mentioning, they don't get power fists but they are str 5 with 3 attacks now. Lack of flamers/autohit is what really hurts them.

Anyone else notice mortarion isn't in the book? Is that normal for models that might not be out on day one?

We have a twin autocannon in the blood angels leak: Heavy 4 range 48" S7 AP-2 Damage 2. So the single cannon our havocs get should just be the same profile but Heavy 2.
35 points I think, not sure what that would make an autocannon but I suppose 15-20?
So without changes, we're looking at 205 for 3 oblits vs 150ish for havocs with on average pretty much the same gun except twice the range.
Less wounds and saves, but the wounds can be made up considering you can get about five havocs per oblit.

They don't really seem to offer a whole lot vs havocs, but they are still daemons and now they have a cult of destruction keyword which I presume has some kind of use (unless it's only to say they are bulky), so there is still room to grow.
They're ok but for roughly 50 points more they really should be offering a bit more than deepstrike when there are no flanks anymore and they don't have melta. In melee they both suck about equally.
They're certainly not going to be punching stuff to death. That said, if there is no more dangerous terrain/mishaps, they are going to be hard to shift from cover, which could be a problem if you drop them on an objective.

New obliterators are way nerfed than old ones.
They lost the fist, losing an huge power at melee.
And the new weapons is way worst. The old ones were more powerful and more flexible, giving you a weapon for each situation

Now the have a autocanon plus where before they could use laser canons or plasma canons... Or twin flammers at melee or any other option.

For 65 the new obliterators are bad. A centurion is way better

A centurion devestator is 65 without gear, the Launcher is 25 and a twin lascannon is 50. Cents are going to be hella expensive!

Also what is everyone thinking for their special weapon choices?
Melta has gone up but is still going to be a solid choice, flamers are probably still decent although they have gone up a bit and hit less horde-type models.
I'm really not impressed with the plasma gun, that 'gets hot' is harsh!

For champions I think the power Axe looks like a nice middle ground. Since you won't get the extra attack for a pistol anymore I think i'd Combi weapons also.

The plasma overload is brutal lol, but you have more ready access to re-rolling hits via auras so it's fine. Even if not, you're playing chaos, so it's overload all day err day either way

Dayve220 wrote:
A centurion devestator is 65 without gear, the Launcher is 25 and a twin lascannon is 50. Cents are going to be hella expensive!

Also what is everyone thinking for their special weapon choices?
Melta has gone up but is still going to be a solid choice, flamers are probably still decent although they have gone up a bit and hit less horde-type models.
I'm really not impressed with the plasma gun, that 'gets hot' is harsh!

For champions I think the power Axe looks like a nice middle ground. Since you won't get the extra attack for a pistol anymore I think i'd Combi weapons also.

I'm hoping that DG will get a rule allowing the new blight launcher to be taken as a special weapon in the same way blood angels get inferno pistols and hand/heavy flamers added. Even if they do, it depends on pricing, but overall I'm willing to pay for them over plasma.

Melta weapons seem the obvious choice for a lot of units like raptors and chosen that aren't scared of getting close to the enemy, particularly with the new assault weapon rules giving them a bit more mobility. I'm still not sold on flamers, the fact that at least a few units can charge from outside their range consistently has me question their utility. Plasma isn't bad, but it's more for killing normal marines than the now multi wound terminators, which hampers it a bit, not even particularly good vs light transports, at least without the (suicidally dangerous) overcharge.

Combi melta/plasma seems like a strong option for terminators in particular, just because a special weapons squad of terminators sounds fun. The tsons terminators might do that better though, particularly with power swords being a much more useful choice.

SilverAlien wrote:
Combi melta/plasma seems like a strong option for terminators in particular, just because a special weapons squad of terminators sounds fun. The tsons terminators might do that better though, particularly with power swords being a much more useful choice.

For either of the terminator units, Deep Strike with a Sorcerer and use the new power Warptime on them to get them to move closer and only need a 4" charge. The Scarab Occult might be able to do it without needing an extra Sorcerer to be bought if their Sorcerer has access to the chaos table himself.

 Vaktathi wrote:

CovenantGuardian wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

CovenantGuardian wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Looking at the Chaos leaks...

Holy crap did Obliterators get hit with a mighty nerf bat they really did not need. Good god did someone bork up that unit.

Looking at the Chaos Land Raider, it looks like it might be usable for once, with an Infernal Spirit and a 2+ save, and legitimately looks way more resilient than in precious editions but does also really confirm for me that, unless the Leman Russ got *stupid* cheap, the classic LRBT is going to be total garbage and is not going to basically be just as fragile as they are now, which is disappointing.

What on earth is a Rhino doing at 70 points...?

The Defiler went *up* in points...again....it better have gotten some insane love.

While obviously these leaks are incomplete thus far, there's a lot of "WTF" going on in some of these, and comparisons to stuff we've already seen really are starting to reinforce that we almost certainly are going to continue to see lots of the old GW still.

Rhinos are insanely good now that it can charge units, at 35 point it would be an OP tarpit. At 70 points, it's still good value.

Well, they can't charge after the Rhino moves, they have to disembark at the start of the movement phase and then can charge, which basically just takes them back to late 4E and 5E where they were 35pts except they can't let the transport move and then disembark and shoot like you could back then.

You misunderstand, the Rhinos ability to charge and delay opposing units is incredible now. Without playing 8th, you don't know how the game plays anymore, your frame of reference is completely based on 7th.

Oh you mean the Rhino's ability to charge itself, well, that has some utility, for sure, but doubling its points cost for that alone feels...dramatically excessive, particularly when many units riding in them won't necessarily be assault units and therefore will derive basically 0 benefit from such an ability.

Given GW's track record over the last 20 years and looking at what's happening to Obliterators, LRBT's, and some of the other things we've seen, and having played this game for many editions, my gut feeling is saying that's going to be a borked costing rather than a legitimate reflection of value. I could be wrong, absolutely, but that's how it's shaping up in my eyes.

Also look that a rhino can carry two different squads now instead of just the one, but also that the rhino can charge first to soak up overwatch. Being in cc is cool, but it's more shielding the guys running in with it that I think adds value.

Obliterators are my favorite Heavy Support for Chaos. That nerf bat just hit me right in the head. But there might be more to them, they have keyword Cult of Destruction.

Who knows what that could do?

Franarok wrote:
New obliterators are way nerfed than old ones.
They lost the fist, losing an huge power at melee.
And the new weapons is way worst. The old ones were more powerful and more flexible, giving you a weapon for each situation

Now the have a autocanon plus where before they could use laser canons or plasma canons... Or twin flammers at melee or any other option.

For 65 the new obliterators are bad. A centurion is way better

I'm also dissapointed with Obliterators, but seeing that they don't have to pay for their weapons I'm not going to complain much. I'll probably use them anyways, as I'm just finishing the last 3 of 9. Not to mention they appear to be able to Advance and Fire for kicks.

Conceptually I do wish they were Centurion equivalents, but seeing how expensive Centurions are going to be, I'm totally fine (and would rather buy Havocs for Lascannons anyways).

I'm mostly curious to see if Marks are Free/how many points they'll be.

The Obliterator nerf is just insulting. Like, it's 7th ed Deffrolla levels of insulting.

Between that and losing Champion of Chaos, this really feels like Codex: Spiky Loyalists all over again. Not to mention the hilarity of Heldrakes now averaging 1.1 dead Marines from a Baleflamer.

Honestly I'm somewhat glad to see CoC gone. I certainly loved seeing my fully kitted out Chaos Lord turn to Spawndom.. Or becoming a Daemon Prince and becoming weaker. Or that idea that every single Chaos Champion chooses to leeory jenkins it up in melee combat.

Not to mention the thought that they kept upgrades from us because they used it for the CoC table, such as the 2+ that isn't terminator armor.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Honestly I'm somewhat glad to see CoC gone. I certainly loved seeing my fully kitted out Chaos Lord turn to Spawndom.. Or becoming a Daemon Prince and becoming weaker. Or that idea that every single Chaos Champion chooses to leeory jenkins it up in melee combat.

Not to mention the thought that they kept upgrades from us because they used it for the CoC table, such as the 2+ that isn't terminator armor.

Maybe it's because the Chaos Warband has me a little spoiled, or that the non-Warband lists tend to be more Cultist-heavy, but Spawndom/Princedom at inopportune times hasn't come up that often. Between that, and the FAQ clarifying that you can kill a character by *any* means (fry that Tac Sergeant with Psychic Shriek), and I've found that it's actually pretty easy to get some budget Smashers running around the table, or to get Bike/Terminator Champs serving as "mini-HQs" in their own right. It may not always work (as you might well run into Necrons or Tyranids or any other army where the HQ is the only character), but it's still entertaining to play herohammer and quest to victory.

I run a Palanquin Sorcerer, and with Nexus of the Gods and Eight-Fold Path, went from 1 wound back to his original 4...my opponent didn't appreciate it, needless to say.

Removed profanity. Don't do that again. - Lorek

Heldrakes also seem to lack the movement restrictions some other listed flyers get. They are basically MCs now, and since most of us have baleflamers, the decreasing BS from damage doesn't affect us. Our birdies can keep burning people, and spinning circles all game till they drop dead. As much as i loved flamer templates, i equally hated blast templates, so I rather see them go.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Heldrakes also seem to lack the movement restrictions some other listed flyers get. They are basically MCs now, and since most of us have baleflamers, the decreasing BS from damage doesn't affect us. Our birdies can keep burning people, and spinning circles all game till they drop dead. As much as i loved flamer templates, i equally hated blast templates, so I rather see them go.

On average though, a Baledrake kills...1.1 Marine in the open, or 1.62 Plague Zombies. This isn't exactly the sort of math that inspires confidence in their usage. Plus the idea of a Hadesdrake needing 5s to hit is also sad.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Obliterators are my favorite Heavy Support for Chaos. That nerf bat just hit me right in the head. But there might be more to them, they have keyword Cult of Destruction.

Who knows what that could do?

Probably just leaving the door open for a future Oblit/Mutilator buffing IC.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Heldrakes also seem to lack the movement restrictions some other listed flyers get. They are basically MCs now, and since most of us have baleflamers, the decreasing BS from damage doesn't affect us. Our birdies can keep burning people, and spinning circles all game till they drop dead. As much as i loved flamer templates, i equally hated blast templates, so I rather see them go.

On average though, a Baledrake kills...1.1 Marine in the open, or 1.62 Plague Zombies. This isn't exactly the sort of math that inspires confidence in their usage. Plus the idea of a Hadesdrake needing 5s to hit is also sad.

BS is a fixed 4+. Its the number of attacks that changes with damage (does anyone know what this is?)

The baleflamer does look a bit sad. 2 damage OK but that doesn't help against infantry. But were we really expecting it to stay awesome?

I think the Helldrake has been changed from support flyer to attack monster. (anyone who's played Freeblade will understand the aesthetics of this)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can take a look at the Tau flyers to see just how different the helldrake is
http://pintorjoakero.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/taus-8th-index-leaks.html

Helldrake can charge other flyers and mess them up

 MagicJuggler wrote:
The Obliterator nerf is just insulting. Like, it's 7th ed Deffrolla levels of insulting.

Between that and losing Champion of Chaos, this really feels like Codex: Spiky Loyalists all over again. Not to mention the hilarity of Heldrakes now averaging 1.1 dead Marines from a Baleflamer.

The Heldrake is now a pseudoflyer that can charge something 30" away on turn one, even if the Baleflamer is worse than before. Annoying shooty squad in some corner somewhere and you're going first? Get rekt. Obliterators might have some tricks up their sleeve in form of the Cult of Destruction special rule, a character that does something for them (Warpsmith for example) or Legion rules (Iron Warriors comes to mind). They do less than Centurions, but they also cost less.

I wish people would stop comparing Centurions and Obliterators, they are completely different and always have been.

whilst that's true.. Oblitorators whole thing, was morphing the right weapon for the situation. And that's gone. So their basic design concept is now vanished in the careless process of streamlining. And that is sad.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
whilst that's true.. Oblitorators whole thing, was morphing the right weapon for the situation. And that's gone. So their basic design concept is now vanished in the careless process of streamlining. And that is sad.

That sums it up pretty well.

Although I knew this would happen when they released Mutilators. Obliterators used to be depicted as these unstoppable creatures that could turn into anything. Then some businessman that GW was presumably using to substitute for their creative team looked at them for a moment and said "We could make another version of these dudes with knives". Nobody spoke up. After all, this was under Kirby, remember.

So now the guys who can literally turn themselves into complex weaponry can't turn themselves into a sharp blade.

Hmm.

It looks like an infantry unit Champion can still take paired Plasma Pistols, which makes me happy.

Fly seems to just mean 'able to disengage and shoot'. So our Drakes behave like a really big and spikey Crisis Suit, that shoots at a unit and then punches it in the face, then next turn laughs and floats off to shoot up something else? I'm wondering how shooting at Flying units will work - will a Battlecannon hit a diving Drake as easily as it does a Crisis team? Have any proper planes been revealed yet, as it's looking like they might just be big Land Speeders...

Prescience isn't going to make our overcharged Plasma 1s into 2s, is it?

Miasma of Pestilence making enemy shooting subtract 1 - that's going to kill Overwatch. Throw it on a large Bikers unit that's in multiple units' faces and tank for your CQC specialists. BUT it can only be cast on Death Guard - are these powers even available to WB, BL and Renegade Nurgle?

Oblits look... interesting. If your opponent has deployed some long range glass cannons without close support, they'll wreak havoc.

If you examine the Land Raider rules, Cult of Destruction basically seems to mean Very Bulky

I would have liked the new oblits more if it was only one D3 every time for all 3 stats. Roll a 3 - ah, so I'll point them at large targets now. Roll a 1 - okay, I'll rather fire at those Space Marines over there. Now it's overly complicated.

Losing the powerfist hurts pretty much. Also losing high range weapons, you are forced to deep strike them now, which is okay, but I liked them walking up the board and putting out shots from turn 1 better.
Interestingly, the dread is only 7 points more expensive (before upgrades), so I guess it will be our new source of Multimeltas and Plasmacannons .

Also I'm calling it - Warpsmiths will let Oblits re-roll their D3s.

Shame they cant morph Plasma and more. That's Haemotrope Reactors off my shopping list

 lindsay40k wrote:
Also I'm calling it - Warpsmiths will let Oblits re-roll their D3s.

Shame they cant morph Plasma and more. That's Haemotrope Reactors off my shopping list

oddly I think not specifying what they turn the weapons into it more sastifying. you can imagine all sorts of weird unusal weapons. necron blasters, eldar scatter lasters, autocannons etc!

Beside the heavy nerf to baleflamer on the helldrake... Think that fly only allow you to assault or being assaulted other fly units.
I think.

So, if that is true, the drake can't assault any unit you want, just the o es with the fly rule.

If that is the case, is a huge nerf on the unit because the way lower murder capacity xp. Of course all flammers are now 1d6...but his flammers had torrent, so usually killed lot of models. Why more than normal flammers. Now kill less and not ignored marine armor. Is a nerf

If the dragon can assault any kind of unit and has nice amount of attacks... Then may be balanced, time will say.

And still shocked by the obliterators nerf haha. I had cool models for them xp. Also we lost one of our best nits with las Canon... Now we need put on havocs or vehicles. Mmm

Franarok wrote:
So, if that is true, the drake can't assault any unit you want, just the o es with the fly rule.

I have a feeling it will be able to assault any unit because the talons say they get +1 to hit units with FLY, which would be pointless to add instead of just increasing the WS if that was the case.

Check the tau flyers. They have a rule that says they can't assault and can only be assaulted by fly units. The drake doesn't have this. It isn't in the core rules either (that we've seen so far).

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Obliterators are my favorite Heavy Support for Chaos. That nerf bat just hit me right in the head. But there might be more to them, they have keyword Cult of Destruction.

Who knows what that could do?

Hopefully something great, as Obs seem a bit poopie now.

But more than likely CoD is the umbrella term for Obliterators and Mutilators .