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 Motograter wrote:
So we vot 4 mini legion rules. Hope separate books fixes them.

Death guard index list doesnt allow havocs, bikes, vindicators, oblits and weirdly no terminators. Those plague terminators must be a special unit for death guard. The death guard codex hopefully addresses these issues as missing out certain units there has to be something that helps

Yeah, the terminator thing annoys me but I guess it just confirms we will be getting unique DG terminators and a codex (for DG or CSM or the four cult legions, dunno which) soon.

As far as it goes, I am glad I do have some normal CSM to sit in troops since it looks like my army won't be DG for the foreseeable future, until I can buy enough of the new DG stuff to fill in the gaps. Seriously, no terminators, no chosen, no bikes, no havocs, it'd have to be a small game for me to manage a DG list. I could probably go EC easier than DG at this point, just need a few extra units of noise marines or suck it up and mix CSM and noise marines for troops.

Oh well, enough complaining about GW trying to get me to buy ever more models.

FULL CHAOS CODEX FROM RUMORS THREAD

http://imgur.com/a/A9lGq

Did brimstone horrors just get OP? They're now 2pts per model, have 2 wounds, T3 and a 4+ invuln stock. They won't have much damage output, but virtually nothing is going to kill them efficiently. 2pts per model is just a bit silly

Burning chariots look pretty decent from a first glance too.

Had a look through the Chaos Index today. As a Word Bearer, I'm not happy - I saw none of the cool stuff we (or the other nonaligned Legions) got; no Possessed troops, easy Summoning, improved DAs. In fact DAs have no access to melee options, so tough luck if you converted an Interrogator Chaplain.

Chosen only get LCs as a melee upgrade, so your DV collection is now a load of Champions and Lords.

On the bright side, all Chaos Lords get the Legion 6" re-roll 1's rule, so a squad of Plasma Chosen or Havocs with a Lord is a formidable prospect. Primaris and Terminators won't give us any trouble.

Possessed get M7, AP-2, S5, D3A. OK but a big downgrade from the DP formation. Lightning Claws get AP-2 Shred +1A Shred - cheaper Warp Talons just got more dangerous.

Fabius Bile can buff non-character units during the game, they may take Mortal Wounds though.

On the bright side, many Daemon units have a really low Power Rating as their basic size is one critter. We will have a LOT of flexibility in Summoning.

ALSO: It looks like Summoning Heldrakes, Oblits and Warp Talons is out - they do NOT have the ritual rule listed on 'proper' daemons.

I don't think I saw DPs in the CSM list, if your Legion had one it's a Chaos Grand Alliance. Likewise Cypher; his Factions are Chaos, Imperium and Fallen - no pure Heretic or Loyalist Astartes formations with him in them.

Warp talons pay for their claws like anyone else, so they are actually more expensive than possessed (28 to 22).

And Chosen do get a melee weapon option replacing boltguns.

And though they weren't much improved, at least Dark Apostles and Possessed got cheaper.

I find it weird that Helbrute's Reaper autocannon is so much worse than Dread's twin autocannon (now not only it's range is lower, but damage is 1 instead of 2 as well).

As a Mono Nurgle Daemons player i'm not impressed, with the caveat that i haven't read all the rules yet

Palanquin Heralds gone. Shame i have several converted up. I can still ruin them as Heralds but i'm salty about that, especially since CSM Palanquins are apparently in...

Everything else Nurgle but Plaguebearers got vastly more expensive, as did the Soul Grinder. 5+ FNP will be handy, but it compares poorly with 3+ or 2+ cover saves (not that hard to get in 7th)

Add that to the fact that my tough as nails MCs can now be wounded by S 1 weapons (albiet not easily) and that everything Nurgle is likely to be slow as hell, and i'm not feeling uplifted here.

I will be interested in reading the new system, but as far as i can tell i just got an unneeded nerfbat enema.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Chosen only get LCs as a melee upgrade, so your DV collection is now a load of Champions and Lords.

I don't think I saw DPs in the CSM list, if your Legion had one it's a Chaos Grand Alliance. Likewise Cypher; his Factions are Chaos, Imperium and Fallen - no pure Heretic or Loyalist Astartes formations with him in them.

You might want to give it a second look through, these are both incorrect. Chosen only has the weapon stats for lightning claws on its datasheet, but four can still take anything from the melee weapon list or dual lightning claws .This is because the melee weapon list normally only allows you to take one, meaning dual lightning claws is technically a "unique" chosen option.

DPs are there. Before the sorcerer, after the dark apostle/chaos lord.

Glad they are holding off on Legion specific rules. Would rather get good rules after game is tested at scale than mishmash of things designers thought might be useful. Hoping to get my Cyclopea Cabal back at some point, that's a big loss for me.

OTOH, looking at Eldar rules, they got some pretty big nerfs. WK is now over 500 points. Noise Marines no longer have salvo on their weapons. Thinking Slannesh is going to be a lot more competitive as we go forward.

As a Death Guard player who just got back into the game with Traitor's Hate, having given up 40k after 3.5ed I am quite disappointed. As I was looking at all of the rules coming out over the last few weeks I was getting really excited, but now I see that I have just been shunted out of my army.

Of all of the models that make up my 2000pt Death Guard that I have bought only recently, the only models that now can be put in a Death Guard army are:
1) 1 Daemon Prince
2) 2 Rhinos
3) 5 Spawn

Out are:
1) 1 Chaos Lord on a Bike
2) 2 Sorcerers on Bikes
3) 10 CSM
4) 6 Bikes
5) 10 Raptors
6) 10 Havocs

So right now I honestly don't know what to do. I know that some supplements may be coming out some time over the next few months, and that may change things. But as of this moment, I can't help but feel that Chaos looks pretty meh.

I still have to read through this new chaos leak, but that is the entire dex is it not? Is there there seriously nothing there for undivided legions? Am I delusional or did they get shafted/require a separate codex later?

 DoomMouse wrote:
Did brimstone horrors just get OP? They're now 2pts per model, have 2 wounds, T3 and a 4+ invuln stock. They won't have much damage output, but virtually nothing is going to kill them efficiently. 2pts per model is just a bit silly

Burning chariots look pretty decent from a first glance too.

Where are you seeing that they have 2 wounds? I'm seeing 2 attacks, 1 wound, per model. Still really great considering the invulnerable save. You can really flood the table with those.

Flamers weapons are Pistol D6.

That means 9 flamers do 9d6 hits every round, and assaulting them does not stop them from shooting!

TonyH122 wrote:
As a Death Guard player who just got back into the game with Traitor's Hate, having given up 40k after 3.5ed I am quite disappointed. As I was looking at all of the rules coming out over the last few weeks I was getting really excited, but now I see that I have just been shunted out of my army.

Of all of the models that make up my 2000pt Death Guard that I have bought only recently, the only models that now can be put in a Death Guard army are:
1) 1 Daemon Prince
2) 2 Rhinos
3) 5 Spawn

Out are:
1) 1 Chaos Lord on a Bike
2) 2 Sorcerers on Bikes
3) 10 CSM
4) 6 Bikes
5) 10 Raptors
6) 10 Havocs

So right now I honestly don't know what to do. I know that some supplements may be coming out some time over the next few months, and that may change things. But as of this moment, I can't help but feel that Chaos looks pretty meh.

I feel your pain

It doesn't help that bikes have been a staple of nurgle chaos forces for a while now, and everything with a bike is out for DG. That was really frustrating to see. The loss of havocs (the unit DG traitor legion rules did the most for) is also really annoying. It does feel like a deliberate attempt to invalidate old DG armies, including ones people may have bought as recently as six months ago. .

That being said, there is no real benefit for a DG army right now, unless you want to spam plague marines in troops or use the new models. Which isn't bad, but i know I'll get more annoyed when the new models drop and I basically end up rebuilding my DG from the ground up.

 Therion wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Did brimstone horrors just get OP? They're now 2pts per model, have 2 wounds, T3 and a 4+ invuln stock. They won't have much damage output, but virtually nothing is going to kill them efficiently. 2pts per model is just a bit silly

Burning chariots look pretty decent from a first glance too.

Where are you seeing that they have 2 wounds? I'm seeing 2 attacks, 1 wound, per model. Still really great considering the invulnerable save. You can really flood the table with those.

Ah - that's good at least. Thanks for catching that, I skim read the profile. they'll still be pretty powerful as area-denial units. Just need one or two blue horrors per squad to attempt to cast smite safely and they'll be very annoying area-denial units. It'd be 50pts for 20 brims and 2 blues. Glad my brims are still usable at least!

 DoomMouse wrote:

 Therion wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Did brimstone horrors just get OP? They're now 2pts per model, have 2 wounds, T3 and a 4+ invuln stock. They won't have much damage output, but virtually nothing is going to kill them efficiently. 2pts per model is just a bit silly

Burning chariots look pretty decent from a first glance too.

Where are you seeing that they have 2 wounds? I'm seeing 2 attacks, 1 wound, per model. Still really great considering the invulnerable save. You can really flood the table with those.

Ah - that's good at least. Thanks for catching that, I skim read the profile. they'll still be pretty powerful as area-denial units. Just need one or two blue horrors per squad to attempt to cast smite safely and they'll be very annoying area-denial units. It'd be 50pts for 20 brims and 2 blues. Glad my brims are still usable at least!

Not to mention the fact that hordes in general are a lot harder to get rid of than before. Blasts and templates hit a lot less guys overall, and a lot of people will probably make the mistake of stacking up on multiwound weapons. Hard to imagine the downside (except cost and painting effort) in getting like a couple or more of those units that you mentioned.

As a daemons player it feels as though they just gutted the list. Almost no wargear, limited psychic powers, herald buffs are a bland +1 strength for everythingf (yay S4 horrors...). Many units got significant cost increases despite losing old special rules (most notably moral immunity from daemonic instability).

Also, am I missing where it explains how summoning works in matched play. I gather you set aside points for summons, but you then still roll a "random" amount of summoning power each ritual. What if power levels don't translate exactly into points cost?

Oh.ooh.oh. Fabius might actually be playable. Rejoice .

No legion rules? Urgh. Come on.

Khorne.....

Those bloodthirsters are nuts! And the Khorne berserkers matched with Khârn! Wow... I feel like I'm going to be collecting a Khorne army. I'll just convert all my AoS figs and I'm ready to dominate the melee field!

 Therion wrote:
So, does anyone else think Magnus at 415 points is a good deal?

I'm not sure if his Primarch of the Thousand Sons special rule applies to himself, but if it does it's pretty sick. It'd mean he always hits on 2+ and re-rolls misses, and his save would be a 4+ invulnerable save re-rolling 1's. He can pretty easily put 21 wounds to a 500+ point Wraithknight in one fight phase, and considering he can can soften up stuff with Smite beforehand he's a tough sob. T7 18 wounds and all this utility and power can't be bad.

It does he is a thousand sons unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asura Varuna wrote:
As a daemons player it feels as though they just gutted the list. Almost no wargear, limited psychic powers, no way to negate leadership mechanics (so large squads are worthless), herald buffs are a bland +1 strength for everythingf (yay S4 horrors...). Many units got significant cost increases despite losing old special rules (most notably moral immunity from daemonic instability).

Also, am I missing where it explains how summoning works in matched play. I gather you set aside points for summons, but you then still roll a "random" amount of summoning power each ritual. What if power levels don't translate exactly into points cost?

In AoS the larger the unit the higher the LD, +1 LD per 10. And if they stick with the theme there going for expect to see Daemons become the AoS undead equivalent.

Oh snap. in matched play, other than smite, each psychic power can only be attempted once per army per turn.

Thats.. going to make a Thousand Sons army pretty pointless :*(

 labmouse42 wrote:
Flamers weapons are Pistol D6.

That means 9 flamers do 9d6 hits every round, and assaulting them does not stop them from shooting!

Flamers are assault not Pistol you can run and shoot but you cant shoot in CC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Oh snap. in matched play, other than smite, each psychic power can only be attempted once per army per turn.

Thats.. going to make a Thousand Sons army pretty pointless :*(

Yeah unless Thousand Sons get a special rule that lets them cast spells twice. It's the same in AoS and this is what I was worried about.

So a unit of Berzerkers with chainaxe and chainsword each comes to 170pts. Give two a plasma pistol and chainaxe and that comes to 184pts.

Due to their ability to attack twice in each phase, that's a total of:
4 plasma shots at S8, AP-3, D2.
22 chainaxe attacks (including sergeant) at S6, AP-1, D1
32 chainsword attacks (including sergeant but without pistol dudes) at S5, AP-, D1.

That's insane! (If I did the math right) Add Khârn to that and they're all re-rolling hit rolls!
Blood for the blood god indeed...

Ok I read through that csm leak and I have to say I'm pretty dissapointed.
If this is indeed the whole index for csm, marks are all but gone, legion tactics are all but gone, no daemon weapons or relics of any kind.
All marks do is change what icon the unit can get.

Wth GW? They just added tons of flavour with the legions supplement and now take it all away and then some?
This whole thing is just really really bland. Undivided legions are all gone except for the odd lord re-roll which really has nothing to do with legions. That's pretty much a general warlord thing from what I can tell.
Even the cult legions are pretty meh. All they do is make cult elites into troops, but restrict you in other places. It's ok, but the decurions rules were way more interesting. They weren't fairly balanced, but taking them away entirely?
Our daemon engines are also still hitting on 4+, which was always pet peeve of mine. Sticking a daemon into a machine is supposed to make it more deadly, not less.
Possessed/mutilators and obliterators are all meh too. Their whole shtick was to mutate into what is best for the situation at hand, but not only did they not fix that with possessed, the made it worse for the other two.
What about command traits? Weren't there supposed to be unique command tables?
And what is going on with dark heretics? Not even Magnus can roll on a tzeentch table? Seriosly?

This whole index smells so hard of stopgap spiky marines it isn't even funny if this leak is complete. I'm not gonna bother getting the index. May as well wait for the actual codex to be released.
And just to be clear, I'm not complaining about relative power. Some units got a serious buff, it's just...boring.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
So a unit of Berzerkers with chainaxe and chainsword each comes to 170pts. Give two a plasma pistol and chainaxe and that comes to 184pts.

Due to their ability to attack twice in each phase, that's a total of:
4 plasma shots at S8, AP-3, D2.
22 chainaxe attacks (including sergeant) at S6, AP-1, D1
30 chainsword attacks (including sergeant but without pistol dudes) at S5, AP-, D1.

That's insane! (If I did the math right) Add Khârn to that and they're all re-rolling hit rolls!
Blood for the blood god indeed...

For those playing at home, those points are for a unit of 10 Berzerkers. You also forgot to give an additional plasma pistol to the unit's champion. Also, keep a Chaos Lord within six inches so they can reroll their rolls of 1 to hit when shooting and fighting in melee, so feel free to overcharge your plasma pistols all you like. You can keep Kharn within 1 inch for the same, however if you roll different run rolls it may be hard to keep that distance between them.

If you take a Rhino it becomes even easier to keep that distance, but keep in mind all the points you save on new Berzerkers are being spent on the now more expensive Rhino (70 points). You could always hoof it, but you're going 7-12 inches per turn, whereas in the Rhino you're going 11-16 inches a turn until it starts taking hits. But then, you can always drop some Flesh Hounds into your Fast Attack slot for the Psyker defense and screen unit, along with Karanak.

I feel like it will be much more worth it to focus on a single HQ with a single unit instead of a single HQ and multiple units. I.E. when selecting an HQ, select a unit for them to stay near and buff. Create multiple threats, move up the board apart from one another, use wave tactics like Flesh Hounds in front with Karanak, Spawn behind them with a Juggerlord, finally a Rhino with Kharn and Zerkers. Hell, when the Forge World books leak and we get our drop pods back you can just drop Kharn in someone's backfield and KILL MAIM BURN

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
So a unit of Berzerkers with chainaxe and chainsword each comes to 170pts. Give two a plasma pistol and chainaxe and that comes to 184pts.

Due to their ability to attack twice in each phase, that's a total of:
4 plasma shots at S8, AP-3, D2.
22 chainaxe attacks (including sergeant) at S6, AP-1, D1
30 chainsword attacks (including sergeant but without pistol dudes) at S5, AP-, D1.

That's insane! (If I did the math right) Add Khârn to that and they're all re-rolling hit rolls!
Blood for the blood god indeed...

For those playing at home, those points are for a unit of 10 Berzerkers. You also forgot to give an additional plasma pistol to the unit's champion. Also, keep a Chaos Lord within six inches so they can reroll their rolls of 1 to hit when shooting and fighting in melee, so feel free to overcharge your plasma pistols all you like. You can keep Kharn within 1 inch for the same, however if you roll different run rolls it may be hard to keep that distance between them.

If you take a Rhino it becomes even easier to keep that distance, but keep in mind all the points you save on new Berzerkers are being spent on the now more expensive Rhino (70 points). You could always hoof it, but you're going 7-12 inches per turn, whereas in the Rhino you're going 11-16 inches a turn until it starts taking hits. But then, you can always drop some Flesh Hounds into your Fast Attack slot for the Psyker defense and screen unit, along with Karanak.

I feel like it will be much more worth it to focus on a single HQ with a single unit instead of a single HQ and multiple units. I.E. when selecting an HQ, select a unit for them to stay near and buff. Create multiple threats, move up the board apart from one another, use wave tactics like Flesh Hounds in front with Karanak, Spawn behind them with a Juggerlord, finally a Rhino with Kharn and Zerkers. Hell, when the Forge World books leak and we get our drop pods back you can just drop Kharn in someone's backfield and KILL MAIM BURN

It seems Khorne got the better deal than most of the other Chaos gods. I'd be tempted to take them in units of 8 (for fluff and they'd still be brutal) and then I can chuck Khârn/lord in a rhino with a unit to keep them close. Bring a winged daemon prince along too and a bloodthirster of insensate rage. All you'd need is some chaff, like cultists or flesh hounds, and some anti-tank and that's one hell of a smash-to-the-face army.

Shouldn't that be 22 attacks with a chain axe and 10 with a chainsword? On the charge they have 2 attacks each with axes, fighting twice, so 4 and then each fight one more attack with a chainsword so another 2. With 5 guys that is.
It would only be 30(32) attacks with the chainswords if you hit with the chainswords and forego axes. So either way you attack 30 times total. There is no reason to be using the chainsword if you also equip an axe and there is no reason to be using a pistol as it's worse than the axe and you loose attacks. Except for the plasma pistols for obvious reasons.
Instead of attacking with 4 S6 Ap-1 attacks you only get one S8 Ap-2 D2 attack and 4 S5 Ap0 attacks as you use the chainsword for all attacks instead of the axe, the bonus attack remains the same.

 Roknar wrote:
Ok I read through that csm leak and I have to say I'm pretty dissapointed.
If this is indeed the whole index for csm, marks are all but gone, legion tactics are all but gone, no daemon weapons or relics of any kind.
All marks do is change what icon the unit can get.

Wth GW? They just added tons of flavour with the legions supplement and now take it all away and then some?
This whole thing is just really really bland. Undivided legions are all gone except for the odd lord re-roll which really has nothing to do with legions. That's pretty much a general warlord thing from what I can tell.
Even the cult legions are pretty meh. All they do is make cult elites into troops, but restrict you in other places. It's ok, but the decurions rules were way more interesting. They weren't fairly balanced, but taking them away entirely?
Our daemon engines are also still hitting on 4+, which was always pet peeve of mine. Sticking a daemon into a machine is supposed to make it more deadly, not less.
Possessed/mutilators and obliterators are all meh too. Their whole shtick was to mutate into what is best for the situation at hand, but not only did they not fix that with possessed, the made it worse for the other two.
What about command traits? Weren't there supposed to be unique command tables?
And what is going on with dark heretics? Not even Magnus can roll on a tzeentch table? Seriosly?

This whole index smells so hard of stopgap spiky marines it isn't even funny if this leak is complete. I'm not gonna bother getting the index. May as well wait for the actual codex to be released.
And just to be clear, I'm not complaining about relative power. Some units got a serious buff, it's just...boring.

Yeah my Thousand Sons can only cast 3 spells per turn not including smite.

 Roknar wrote:
Ok I read through that csm leak and I have to say I'm pretty dissapointed.
If this is indeed the whole index for csm, marks are all but gone, legion tactics are all but gone, no daemon weapons or relics of any kind.
All marks do is change what icon the unit can get.

Wth GW? They just added tons of flavour with the legions supplement and now take it all away and then some?
This whole thing is just really really bland. Undivided legions are all gone except for the odd lord re-roll which really has nothing to do with legions. That's pretty much a general warlord thing from what I can tell.
Even the cult legions are pretty meh. All they do is make cult elites into troops, but restrict you in other places. It's ok, but the decurions rules were way more interesting. They weren't fairly balanced, but taking them away entirely?
Our daemon engines are also still hitting on 4+, which was always pet peeve of mine. Sticking a daemon into a machine is supposed to make it more deadly, not less.
Possessed/mutilators and obliterators are all meh too. Their whole shtick was to mutate into what is best for the situation at hand, but not only did they not fix that with possessed, the made it worse for the other two.
What about command traits? Weren't there supposed to be unique command tables?
And what is going on with dark heretics? Not even Magnus can roll on a tzeentch table? Seriosly?

This whole index smells so hard of stopgap spiky marines it isn't even funny if this leak is complete. I'm not gonna bother getting the index. May as well wait for the actual codex to be released.
And just to be clear, I'm not complaining about relative power. Some units got a serious buff, it's just...boring.

They literally said they would be expanding for the Legions, with Death Guard coming out soon.

Is everyone just missing this for some reason? The index is to get some games in as they release more rules you might want.

Looks like Jump Pack characters are out. That's dreadful, they currently sell one and I know several people who've converted Valkia.

Why the Warp has everything on a Daemonic Mount got to budget for the critter's bites or whatever? This 'pay for every weapon, grenades and rifles and chainswords are free' system is bizarre. Fine, a distinct entry for 'Palanquin Lord' is acceptable, but then you've got to buy it the teeth that the Nurglings come with? I thought this edition was eliminating Bloathammer?

My Terminator Sorcerer won't get to Biomancy himself into a dulling beast, and his two melee weapons setup - whilst legal - seems utterly redundant; the option to occasionally downgrade from Force Axe to Power Sword is nowhere near as useful as having a Combi-weapon. Probably going to be best used teleporting in with Terminators and then casting Warptime & Prescience for an overcharged Plasma bloodbath (until we get the Rule Of One) and an easy charge.

Havocs need to trade in their Icons of Tzeentch for Icons of Slaanesh. A free extra shot for half the hits you get is awesome. (Hopefully the latter will get upgraded to make DTTFE apply to others, notably Eldar.) A bunch of Havoc squads around a Lord is going to make a formidable firebase.

Can I confirm that a Biker Lord can drive around with three Vindicators or Predators, giving them a bunch of rerolls whilst hiding behind them?

Tzeentch Daemons look really poor. Flamers can't be Summoned within their attack range, Horrors are essentially 4++ IG you can pay to recycle, and Screamers are hardly ever get to make Slashing Attacks whilst their Lamprey Bites will do little to big stuff. Nurgle look decent.

Death Guard and most Loyalists get their own psychic discipline, Thousand Sons do not :-/

 Roknar wrote:
Shouldn't that be 22 attacks with a chain axe and 10 with a chainsword? On the charge they have 2 attacks each with axes, fighting twice, so 4 and then each fight one more attack with a chainsword so another 2. With 5 guys that is.
It would only be 30(32) attacks with the chainswords if you hit with the chainswords and forego axes. So either way you attack 30 times total. There is no reason to be using the chainsword if you also equip an axe and there is no reason to be using a pistol as it's worse than the axe and you loose attacks. Except for the plasma pistols for obvious reasons.
Instead of attacking with 4 S6 Ap-1 attacks you only get one S8 Ap-2 D2 attack and 4 S5 Ap0 attacks as you use the chainsword for all attacks instead of the axe, the bonus attack remains the same.

With 2 attacks each, you give 1 attack to chain axe, 1 to the sword. The sword gives 1 additional attack, so they'd get 1 axe attack each and 2 sword attacks. The ability to attack twice means they'd be doing 2 chain axe attacks and 4 sword attacks. Alternatively you could be doing 8 sword attacks if you just use the swords, but the extra rend of the axes seems handy.

So just axes would roughly do: 40 S6, Ap-1 attacks
Axe and sword would roughly do: 20 S6, AP-1 attacks and 40 S5, AP- attacks. 60 attacks in total (roughly)
Just swords would roughly do: 80 S5, AP- attacks
So seems like a pretty good either or to me.

You're right about the pistol, I for some reason thought they got 2 shots each at half range. So 3 shots total if you gave 2 dudes and the champion one. Overcharged means that can still kill 3 Primaris marines/ terminators off the bat before even attacking in melee, and they can continue doing that each melee phase. So I'd say they're pretty awesome and now cheaper too.