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Are you doing the math for 10? I was going for 5.
The way I read the sword, you don't actually have to attack with it. Any time the bearer fights, you get an extra chainsword attack, a bit like our familiar.
So 2/4 attacks with chains axes and then still get 1/2 sword swings in for 6 total (+2 for the champ) so 30/32 attacks. If you swing with the sword , you get 2 sword attacks and 1 bonus sword, so that would be strictly worse than 2 axe attacks + 1 sword.
How are you getting 8 attacks with just the sword? Am I missing something?
The way I see it, you never want to replace the sword with an axe. Even if it was free since the chainsword attacks are at S5 vs the pistol's 4.
For a unit of 10 you would have 40 axe attacks and 20 swords. Or 60 swords with no axe.
And I also just realized that we lost all our familiars and all of the potential mutations, we lost our entire faction mechanic without getting a replacement.
So this index is worse than 6th vanilla in terms of blandness. Even if those options didn't do a whole lot.
And @Thousand-Son-Sorcerer, yea, the psychic situation is a complete joke. I was fine with dark hereticus as a discipline of many.
But that being all we get, even with TSons included and DG of all people getting their own table is just a slap in the face.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/05/31 18:12:23
lindsay40k wrote: Looks like Jump Pack characters are out. That's dreadful, they currently sell one and I know several people who've converted Valkia.
What are you talking about both lord and Sorc have the option to add a Jump Pack
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Roknar wrote: Are you doing the math for 10? I was going for 5.
The way I read the sword, you don't actually have to attack with it. Any time the bearer fights, you get an extra chainsword attack, a bit like our familiar.
So 2/attacks with chains axes and then still get 1/2 sword swings in for 6 total (+2) so 30 attacks. If you swing with the sword , you get 2 sword attacks and 1 bonus sword, so that would be strictly worse than 2 axe attacks + 1 sword.
How are you getting 8 attacks with just the sword? Am I missing something?
The way I see it, you never want to replace the sword with an axe. Even if it was free since the chainsword attacks are at S5 vs the pistol's 4.
For a unit of 10 you would have 40 axe attacks and 20 swords. Or 60 swords with no axe.
And I also just realized that we lost all our familiars and all of the potential mutations, we lost our entire faction mechanic without getting a replacement.
So this index is worse than 6th vanilla in terms of blandness. Even if those options didn't do a whole lot.
And @Thousand-Son-Sorcerer, yea, the psychic situation is a complete joke. I was fine with dark hereticus as a discipline of many.
But that being all we get, even with TSons included and DG of all people getting their own table is just a slap in the face.
Do you not get an extra attack for having two melee weapons?
Yeah, not sure if I will run anything at all since my super Sorcerer army can spam smite relentlessly which is something every army can do and probably better with out Rubrics and SOT since they get Pseudo Smite.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/31 18:15:11
Captyn_Bob wrote: Oh snap. in matched play, other than smite, each psychic power can only be attempted once per army per turn.
Thats.. going to make a Thousand Sons army pretty pointless :*(
Except you can spam smite quite easily in Tzeentch. Spamming mortal wounds off all your characters and basic troops.
I play:
40K: Daemons, Tau
AoS: Blades of Khorne, Disciples of Tzeentch
Warmachine: Convergence of Cyriss
Infinity: Haqqislam, Tohaa
Malifaux: Bayou
Star Wars Legion: Republic & Separatists
MESBG: Far Harad, Misty Mountains
Roknar wrote: Ok I read through that csm leak and I have to say I'm pretty dissapointed.
If this is indeed the whole index for csm, marks are all but gone, legion tactics are all but gone, no daemon weapons or relics of any kind.
All marks do is change what icon the unit can get.
WthGW? They just added tons of flavour with the legions supplement and now take it all away and then some?
This whole thing is just really really bland. Undivided legions are all gone except for the odd lord re-roll which really has nothing to do with legions. That's pretty much a general warlord thing from what I can tell.
Even the cult legions are pretty meh. All they do is make cult elites into troops, but restrict you in other places. It's ok, but the decurions rules were way more interesting. They weren't fairly balanced, but taking them away entirely?
Our daemon engines are also still hitting on 4+, which was always pet peeve of mine. Sticking a daemon into a machine is supposed to make it more deadly, not less.
Possessed/mutilators and obliterators are all meh too. Their whole shtick was to mutate into what is best for the situation at hand, but not only did they not fix that with possessed, the made it worse for the other two.
What about command traits? Weren't there supposed to be unique command tables?
And what is going on with dark heretics? Not even Magnus can roll on a tzeentch table? Seriosly?
This whole index smells so hard of stopgap spiky marines it isn't even funny if this leak is complete. I'm not gonna bother getting the index. May as well wait for the actual codex to be released.
And just to be clear, I'm not complaining about relative power. Some units got a serious buff, it's just...boring.
They literally said they would be expanding for the Legions, with Death Guard coming out soon.
Is everyone just missing this for some reason? The index is to get some games in as they release more rules you might want.
Keep in mind legion rules haven't been a thing since the 4th edition codex removed them. Some people were literally waiting a decade for this, and it stuck around for 6 months before getting removed, along with everything else moderately interesting about our armies, with the promise we will get it all back "soon". GW hasn't really earned itself the benefit of the doubt in this regard.
In fact, as a DG fan I'm probably fine. Thousand sons will probably get more soon as well, with the other cult legions to follow. But everyone else? Who knows. They may not even get back marks, much less their own legion rues, for lord knows how long.
You can't spam if the powers are locked to once per army per turn. You can cast smite exactly once, ONCE. And since dark heretic is the only discipline we get by the looks of it you can fire a grand total of 4 spells a turn. That's it, four spells period.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Oh snap. in matched play, other than smite, each psychic power can only be attempted once per army per turn.
Thats.. going to make a Thousand Sons army pretty pointless :*(
Except you can spam smite quite easily in Tzeentch. Spamming mortal wounds off all your characters and basic troops.
And as you spam Smite, you get to watch the fireworks fly as your army kills itself with perils and removing 4 models on average for each one (D3 mortal wounds from the peril which spills into the unit than another D3 to the unit they were in).
Roknar wrote: You can't spam if the powers are locked to once per army per turn. You can cast smite exactly once, ONCE. And since dark heretic is the only discipline we get by the looks of it you can fire a grand total of 4 spells a turn. That's it, four spells period.
FWIW you can multiple cast smite. Not that that is particularly good.
Roknar wrote: You can't spam if the powers are locked to once per army per turn. You can cast smite exactly once, ONCE. And since dark heretic is the only discipline we get by the looks of it you can fire a grand total of 4 spells a turn. That's it, four spells period.
Smite is specifically called out as an exception.
However, most of the tsons just get lesser smite (and don't get an additional power regardless). So really, the one spell per turn limit is just preventing people from spamming sorcerers int he HQ slot like they used to. No real effect on most psychic units. They are hampered by only knowing one spell, which is so weak it sin't worth risking a perils.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/31 18:27:38
Fanta6 stopgap: free staple-bound list of profiles
Sigmar stopgap: free downloads
48K stopgap: £15 glossy full colour softcover books intended to be disposed of in a couple of years (or even months), with currently available models missing, and very popular current army builds technically allowed by the crude measure of "take an auxiliary support detachment consisting of a unit of CSM Bikers with MoN & DG Faction, taken alongside your "proper" DG datasheet, and cross your fingers & hope that the codex will restore the options we allowed you a mere YEAR ago"
My faith in this painstaking playtesting & balancing process is seriously undermined right now. Yeah, great, we can take whatever formations we've built - because any unit in the entire game can be a self-contained Detachment. Unbound is the new Battleforged. Think I'll add some Thunderwolf Cavalry and Deffskull Lootaz to my Word Bearers.
I suppose we should be grateful that our throwaway filler isn't a hardcover art book, like the boxed game rulebook we're all going to mothball for the sake of our vertebral health. At least we don't have to buy another book like my mate who wants an Inquisitor and an Assassin with her Space Wolves.
A little mathhammer - the chainswords, chainaxes, and the mix of the two do identical casualties to MEQ opponents. Axes get a boost vs T3 and T6 models (which is why it's only a 1pt upgrade.
Kharn and a base unit of 10 Berserkers will evaporate a unit of 30 Ork Boyz on the charge (before morale). Yeah, they're dead 'ard.
I'm far more conflicted about the Rhino though. I want the movement, but the cost is high enough that I have second thoughts. I can get something hitty like a Hellbrute for 150 and a rhino is like 80+ after combi whatnots. Multiple rhinos gets really expensive really fast. I epxcet to see a lot of guys going Raptors and Termies for the alternate deepstirke placement.
10 Marines with moderate stuff in a Rhino is about 250. Same as 5 Termies with combi-plas and power axes. That rhino cost really makes me think. Do I want three rhinos or a whole units of Terminators? Huh. It didn't seem like a massive point hike at first glance, but wow does it change my list building habits.
He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all.
Roknar wrote: Ok I read through that csm leak and I have to say I'm pretty dissapointed.
If this is indeed the whole index for csm, marks are all but gone, legion tactics are all but gone, no daemon weapons or relics of any kind.
All marks do is change what icon the unit can get.
WthGW? They just added tons of flavour with the legions supplement and now take it all away and then some?
This whole thing is just really really bland. Undivided legions are all gone except for the odd lord re-roll which really has nothing to do with legions. That's pretty much a general warlord thing from what I can tell.
Even the cult legions are pretty meh. All they do is make cult elites into troops, but restrict you in other places. It's ok, but the decurions rules were way more interesting. They weren't fairly balanced, but taking them away entirely?
Our daemon engines are also still hitting on 4+, which was always pet peeve of mine. Sticking a daemon into a machine is supposed to make it more deadly, not less.
Possessed/mutilators and obliterators are all meh too. Their whole shtick was to mutate into what is best for the situation at hand, but not only did they not fix that with possessed, the made it worse for the other two.
What about command traits? Weren't there supposed to be unique command tables?
And what is going on with dark heretics? Not even Magnus can roll on a tzeentch table? Seriosly?
This whole index smells so hard of stopgap spiky marines it isn't even funny if this leak is complete. I'm not gonna bother getting the index. May as well wait for the actual codex to be released.
And just to be clear, I'm not complaining about relative power. Some units got a serious buff, it's just...boring.
They literally said they would be expanding for the Legions, with Death Guard coming out soon.
Is everyone just missing this for some reason? The index is to get some games in as they release more rules you might want.
Keep in mind legion rules haven't been a thing since the 4th edition codex removed them. Some people were literally waiting a decade for this, and it stuck around for 6 months before getting removed, along with everything else moderately interesting about our armies, with the promise we will get it all back "soon". GW hasn't really earned itself the benefit of the doubt in this regard.
In fact, as a DG fan I'm probably fine. Thousand sons will probably get more soon as well, with the other cult legions to follow. But everyone else? Who knows. They may not even get back marks, much less their own legion rues, for lord knows how long.
Even if we do get legions books, this stop gap index still got rid of marks and champion of chaos and still left some tings untouched that really should have been adressed. Minor things I suppose but still.
And ther are some weird things too. Kharn doesn't hit any better than your run of the mill chaos lord or indeed loyalist. Hitting on a 2+ isn't a rarity now and despite giving everybody around him hatred, kharn himself doesn't benefit from it.
Warp talons have two claws but gain no benefit whatsoever for it. All it does is paying for a second claw you can't even use.
And how different are undivided units to their loyalist counter parts now? Basic csm with the mark of nurgle and khorne are exactly the same to each other and no different to tactical marines, minus combat squadding (if that still is a thing)
What I'm saying is, it's the vanilla dex, except even worse than it was, power levels not withstanding. Which was my main issue with that dex. Being a mono list dex wasn't even something I cared about.
Getting a legion dex could take a long time. It seems to me they are gunning for differences in legions via assorted new units that only they get as opposed to legion wide rules that modify how you play.
That means it could take forever to cover the other legions. TSons and DG have running start, DG in particular. Everybody else could be waiting a long time,
Roknar wrote: You can't spam if the powers are locked to once per army per turn. You can cast smite exactly once, ONCE. And since dark heretic is the only discipline we get by the looks of it you can fire a grand total of 4 spells a turn. That's it, four spells period.
Smite is specifically called out as an exception.
However, most of the tsons just get lesser smite (and don't get an additional power regardless). So really, the one spell per turn limit is just preventing people from spamming sorcerers int he HQ slot like they used to. No real effect on most psychic units. They are hampered by only knowing one spell, which is so weak it sin't worth risking a perils.
This is part of the problem with access to Prescience TS could at least boost their shooting ability between that and Lords re-rolling 1's but now I can have exactly 1 unit that can do that, so I will have to make that a huge unit to even stand a chance. Which you can have little doubt will find itself in a tarpit in no time flat.
Roknar wrote: You can't spam if the powers are locked to once per army per turn. You can cast smite exactly once, ONCE. And since dark heretic is the only discipline we get by the looks of it you can fire a grand total of 4 spells a turn. That's it, four spells period.
Smite is specifically called out as an exception.
However, most of the tsons just get lesser smite (and don't get an additional power regardless). So really, the one spell per turn limit is just preventing people from spamming sorcerers int he HQ slot like they used to. No real effect on most psychic units. They are hampered by only knowing one spell, which is so weak it sin't worth risking a perils.
It is? Huh, must have missed that. That does make it better though, even on non hqs. Pseudo smite is easy enough to cast and you can always use a the re-roll command ability to protect vs perils.
I'm assuming you can bypass the character restriction though so it can act as a sort of sniper spell. It's only one wound but it's very easy to make it stick and TSons had no lack of sorcerers.
Some of them will still get that d3 and you can mix it with odd normal smite. Pretty boring though if all you do in your phase is spam smite lol.
I'm also assuming you can cast in in combat, so it's a faux melee attack in addition to your force weapon.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/31 18:47:16
Yoyoyo wrote: I expect to see some kind of Perils mitigation through stratagems.
Or not, maybe it's time to panic and burn all your models with lighter fluid.
Somebody help me choose!
Look at the space on the Thousand Sons page half of it is open. Adding a single note that Thousand Sons can use strategy points to re-roll psychic points would have been stupidly easy. As is the CP we are going to be getting is much lower then most other armies since we are going to be paying a feth ton more for the units.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is part of the problem with access to Prescience TS could at least boost their shooting ability between that and Lords re-rolling 1's but now I can have exactly 1 unit that can do that, so I will have to make that a huge unit to even stand a chance. Which you can have little doubt will find itself in a tarpit in no time flat.
Well never mind Im not allowed to bring Chaos Lords. Awesome.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/31 18:47:19
Sure you can, just need a separate detachment of thousand sons. I don't see anything that say you need to use the rules for cult legions, only that if you do you get rubrics troops.
Same for nurgle bikers. It's a pretty silly system but yea.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Of course thos other detachments could ue any legion you want because it makes no difference whatsoever unless you're close enough to a lord or whatever that affects them.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/31 18:51:53
Warp Talons Being the first thing I looked at in comparison to my old army. Points wise, a full squad was:
7thEd: 310
8thEd: 280
Deep strike is better. We can now assault out of deep strike, Most importantly, they now IGNORE OVERWATCH. That's pretty big in my mind. Plus death to the false emperor is giving them an extra attack on 6's. I'm gonna call this unit improvement a win.
Kajaki War Pig wrote: Warp Talons Being the first thing I looked at in comparison to my old army. Points wise, a full squad was:
7thEd: 310
8thEd: 280
Deep strike is better. We can now assault out of deep strike, Most importantly, they now IGNORE OVERWATCH. That's pretty big in my mind. Plus death to the false emperor is giving them an extra attack on 6's. I'm gonna call this unit improvement a win.
Better have a psyker close by to cast warp time on them though. With no icon it's not gonna be an easy charge.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Look at the space on the Thousand Sons page half of it is open. Adding a single note that Thousand Sons can use strategy points to re-roll psychic points would have been stupidly easy. As is the CP we are going to be getting is much lower then most other armies since we are going to be paying a feth ton more for the units..
Honestly, all things Tzeentch should have peril mitigation or buff to psychics. Rubrics and Scarabs will almost never cast powers because the 1/18 chance of watching the squad annihilate itself if just not worth the risk for 1 wound. I would have preferred to have the casting power of Horrors and just use a single D6 to cast and never have the chance to nuke myself.
On a side note, warptalons have 2 lightning claws, so they gain 2 extra attacks and not just 1.
mrhappyface wrote: Am I being an idiot? What do legion rules do this edition (specifically Night Lords)?
From the leak? Nothing.
All marks and legions do is act as a limiter/targeter for auras. Take a dark apostle for example. You need to make him a legion (which could be anything, there's no list, so go Pinkiy Pies!)
His aura then let's all pinky pies within 6 re-roll to hit. That's literally the extent of having legion heritage.
Marks do nothing at all as far as I can tell other than limiting the icon you get or if it's a daemon unit it can now be buffed by the daemon prince who doesn't wok with legions or heretic astartes because reasons.
Cult legions can limit their choice of units in order to make their cult unit a troops choice, but all the undivided ones get nothing. And if you're not using a detachment with troops the cult legions also do nothing.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/05/31 18:59:09
Roknar wrote: Ok I read through that csm leak and I have to say I'm pretty dissapointed.
If this is indeed the whole index for csm, marks are all but gone, legion tactics are all but gone, no daemon weapons or relics of any kind.
All marks do is change what icon the unit can get.
WthGW? They just added tons of flavour with the legions supplement and now take it all away and then some?
This whole thing is just really really bland. Undivided legions are all gone except for the odd lord re-roll which really has nothing to do with legions. That's pretty much a general warlord thing from what I can tell.
Even the cult legions are pretty meh. All they do is make cult elites into troops, but restrict you in other places. It's ok, but the decurions rules were way more interesting. They weren't fairly balanced, but taking them away entirely?
Our daemon engines are also still hitting on 4+, which was always pet peeve of mine. Sticking a daemon into a machine is supposed to make it more deadly, not less.
Possessed/mutilators and obliterators are all meh too. Their whole shtick was to mutate into what is best for the situation at hand, but not only did they not fix that with possessed, the made it worse for the other two.
What about command traits? Weren't there supposed to be unique command tables?
And what is going on with dark heretics? Not even Magnus can roll on a tzeentch table? Seriosly?
This whole index smells so hard of stopgap spiky marines it isn't even funny if this leak is complete. I'm not gonna bother getting the index. May as well wait for the actual codex to be released.
And just to be clear, I'm not complaining about relative power. Some units got a serious buff, it's just...boring.
They literally said they would be expanding for the Legions, with Death Guard coming out soon.
Is everyone just missing this for some reason? The index is to get some games in as they release more rules you might want.
Keep in mind legion rules haven't been a thing since the 4th edition codex removed them. Some people were literally waiting a decade for this, and it stuck around for 6 months before getting removed, along with everything else moderately interesting about our armies, with the promise we will get it all back "soon". GW hasn't really earned itself the benefit of the doubt in this regard.
In fact, as a DG fan I'm probably fine. Thousand sons will probably get more soon as well, with the other cult legions to follow. But everyone else? Who knows. They may not even get back marks, much less their own legion rues, for lord knows how long.
Even if we do get legions books, this stop gap index still got rid of marks and champion of chaos and still left some tings untouched that really should have been adressed. Minor things I suppose but still.
And ther are some weird things too. Kharn doesn't hit any better than your run of the mill chaos lord or indeed loyalist. Hitting on a 2+ isn't a rarity now and despite giving everybody around him hatred, kharn himself doesn't benefit from it.
Warp talons have two claws but gain no benefit whatsoever for it. All it does is paying for a second claw you can't even use. And how different are undivided units to their loyalist counter parts now? Basic csm with the mark of nurgle and khorne are exactly the same to each other and no different to tactical marines, minus combat squadding (if that still is a thing)
What I'm saying is, it's the vanilla dex, except even worse than it was, power levels not withstanding. Which was my main issue with that dex. Being a mono list dex wasn't even something I cared about.
Getting a legion dex could take a long time. It seems to me they are gunning for differences in legions via assorted new units that only they get as opposed to legion wide rules that modify how you play.
That means it could take forever to cover the other legions. TSons and DG have running start, DG in particular. Everybody else could be waiting a long time,
On the whole, I mostly agree w/ what you're saying about bland options & such. We did get some decent buffs however, and seem to be over all, pretty decent. However, the part of your post I bolded is incorrect. The rules for Lightning Claws specifically state that if you are armed w/ two of them, you get an add'l attack.
I feel bad for you DG players, hopefully you'll get some more options 'soon' (tm) when the DG codex arrives. I'm very disappointed in my TS as well. Rubrics are finally well costed (in the context that pretty much everything increased in pts, and we stayed roughly the same), Magnus is a -beast-, Ahriman is snazzy, even if he is only a step above an Exalted Sorc. However, the lack of psychic powers we have access to, along w/ the stupid 'Rule of One', makes having multiple psykers pointless. The whole point of a TS army was groups of sorcerers commanding larger groups of Rubrics, throwing spells around towards the tougher targets while the Rubrics turned most infantry into flaming husks with their Inferno Bolters. Now.. having anything more than maybe 2 sorcs is pointless, especially if one of those sorcs is Magnus/Ahriman. As you wont be able to cast anything else after those two are done.
Hell, maybe (and it's a big ing maybe), we'll get a reboot of Traitors Hate, instead of just a separate DG dex, where all our issues will be assuaged, and I (and others who tread the path of Kurze) can have decent NL rules again.
*edit - Italicized text is from Roknar, quote tags didn't work for some reason.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/31 19:07:22
Sometimes, the only truth people understand, comes from the barrel of a gun.
Warp Talons are now better against TEQs and worse against MEQs, but yeah, being able to ignore OW gives them a very special niche. D-scythes are no longer a terror for a melee force, and they can tank for a Terminator squad charging a plasma or melta line with loads of rerolls.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Look at the space on the Thousand Sons page half of it is open. Adding a single note that Thousand Sons can use strategy points to re-roll psychic points would have been stupidly easy. As is the CP we are going to be getting is much lower then most other armies since we are going to be paying a feth ton more for the units..
On a side note, warptalons have 2 lightning claws, so they gain 2 extra attacks and not just 1.
Hmm, that's possible. Hadn't considered that. Not sure if that's intended though.
Roknar wrote: Sure you can, just need a separate detachment of thousand sons. I don't see anything that say you need to use the rules for cult legions, only that if you do you get rubrics troops.
Same for nurgle bikers. It's a pretty silly system but yea.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Of course thos other detachments could ue any legion you want because it makes no difference whatsoever unless you're close enough to a lord or whatever that affects them.
No. You, CAN NOT have a Thousand Sons Chaos Lord, its not on the list. So I am basically fethed. The army will be a whole bunch of Tzzangors/ Cultists with a sprinkle of Rubrics/ SOT. So no change from 7th. Except now I will have WAY less options to buff my army, and Rubrics are now much less effective at shooting.
Roknar wrote: Sure you can, just need a separate detachment of thousand sons. I don't see anything that say you need to use the rules for cult legions, only that if you do you get rubrics troops.
Same for nurgle bikers. It's a pretty silly system but yea.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Of course thos other detachments could ue any legion you want because it makes no difference whatsoever unless you're close enough to a lord or whatever that affects them.
No. You, CAN NOT have a Thousand Sons Chaos Lord, its not on the list. So I am basically fethed. The army will be a whole bunch of Tzzangors/ Cultists with a sprinkle of Rubrics/ SOT. So no change from 7th. Except now I will have WAY less options to buff my army, and Rubrics are now much less effective at shooting.
I need to take more time reading these leaks before I post lol. You are right.
Night Lord XIII Company: 6,600 Points, 12W-4L
Skaven Cheese-stealer Renegade Cult: 2,000 points, 0-0
Warboss Spine Squisha's Ork Warband: 3,000 Points, 1W-3L
Carcharadons Astra: 2000 Points, 11-2
Drukhari: 1250 Points, 2-0
ing maybe), we'll get a reboot of Traitors Hate, instead of just a separate 