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 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Ahriman could never solo a IK, He had no spell familiar and no bonus to casting. a WC 1 spell needed 3 dice and a WC 2 needed 5 dice to reliably go off.

He had a 3+ to harness in his formation. Scrapcode Curse was 1WC for D3 Hull Points and autohit, so you needed to cast about 3 times to kill a Knight before turboboosting away. It's not even that hard.

Anyway, Ahriman and Magnus are clearly your best casters, due to their bonus. Rubrics and SOT are still useful for their resilience and damage output. If you're spamming Tzaangors, there's a risk the enemy can remove them and then focus on the characters. Plus I don't think Smite will outpace damage against every target.

I wouldn't base your list-building on avoiding Perils. It's just part of the game.

You can always spring for a couple demon princes for your HQ if you want, those benefit both demons and marines.

Not super worried about helldrakes, that flyer detachment makes them easy to slot in any army, for now at least. Same with questor

I'm suprised they didn't give both princes the heretic astartes keyword, they don't seem all that stingy in handing out keywords.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Ahriman could never solo a IK, He had no spell familiar and no bonus to casting. a WC 1 spell needed 3 dice and a WC 2 needed 5 dice to reliably go off.

He had a 3+ to harness in his formation. Scrapcode Curse was 1WC for D3 Hull Points and autohit, so you needed to cast about 3 times to kill a Knight before turboboosting away. It's not even that hard.

Anyway, Ahriman and Magnus are clearly your best casters, due to their bonus. Rubrics and SOT are still useful for their resilience and damage output. If you're spamming Tzaangors, there's a risk the enemy can remove them and then focus on the characters. Plus I don't think Smite will outpace damage against every target.

I wouldn't base your list-building on avoiding Perils. It's just part of the game.

I would agree if the one benefit of taking a Thousand Sons Detachment was that I could bring more Rubric Marines. Which means I will be paying for a bunch of Sorcerers THAT I CANT USE.

I think what you need to focus on when building a chaos list is picking a legion, picking an HQ, then picking a troop/elite/FA for that HQ to buff. From there you either add more solo HQ/Unit combos, more units for the original HQ to buff, vehicles for your buffed unit, flyers, maybe a knight why not. A WE army with just two units of Zerks with Kharn between them running behind Flesh Hounds + Karanak and Spawn + Lord on Jugger, maybe toss in some cultists for objective holding and filling out the troop slot. Drop in a Heldrake because why not.

I was building Daemonkin before all this dropped, so as long as it can get a Khorne Keyword I don't care what Legion it has or what army it belongs to.

As a bonus I can even mark my vehicles now for extra Khorneness!

I guess all my DG bikers and Havocs are gonna go join the Black Legion now instead!

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I guess all my DG bikers and Havocs are gonna go join the Black Legion now instead!

*Just as planned*

So no one gonna coment on Possed being joke again? They are inch faster power axe marines with random A.

On the other hand we have Raptors with 1A, so that means if -special weapon list- contain power weapons, we look at 4 PW attacks with champion. Arent combat suposed to be bloody and fast? Or Im reading something wrong, 10man Raptor squad have very little chance to do some proper dmg to new 2W marines, even small squad.

I look at Warp Talons and see 2A and no Overwatch, I look at CC Oblits and they have 3A and chance for 3D.
WTF? Tell me I got it all wrong? 8ed seem to be mor costly and there will be less meat on table but I dont see how 14 normal A, and 4pw A can put a dent at anything other than 5man squad of normal marines(in case of Raptors)

 GrenAcid wrote:
So no one gonna coment on Possed being joke again? They are inch faster power axe marines with random A.

On the other hand we have Raptors with 1A, so that means if -special weapon list- contain power weapons, we look at 4 PW attacks with champion. Arent combat suposed to be bloody and fast? Or Im reading something wrong, 10man Raptor squad have very little chance to do some proper dmg to new 2W marines, even small squad.

I look at Warp Talons and see 2A and no Overwatch, I look at CC Oblits and they have 3A and chance for 3D.
WTF? Tell me I got it all wrong? 8ed seem to be mor costly and there will be less meat on table but I dont see how 14 normal A, and 4pw A can put a dent at anything other than 5man squad of normal marines(in case of Raptors)

keep in mind Primaris Marines are limited to squad sizes of 5.

So I began building out a list of my painted squads using the leaked images, and my 10 man Terminator Squad comes to 609 points. Wow! I hope they're awesome. Two Reapers, six Combi Meltas, two Combi-Flamers and a mix of CC weapons.

Dayve220 wrote:
I was looking forward to having Marines armed with a Boltgun, Pistol and Chainsword. Even a Boltgun + Chainsword.

Looks like all CSM get Boltgun + Pistol but if they want a Chainsword you have to swap the Boltgun, even Chosen.

yeah thats annoying, and a little baffling considering the Space Sues, err I mean Wolves, can have bolt pistol bolt gun and chain sword.

"Counts as Space Wolves" time again, it appears.

BrianDavion wrote:

 GrenAcid wrote:
So no one gonna coment on Possed being joke again? They are inch faster power axe marines with random A.

On the other hand we have Raptors with 1A, so that means if -special weapon list- contain power weapons, we look at 4 PW attacks with champion. Arent combat suposed to be bloody and fast? Or Im reading something wrong, 10man Raptor squad have very little chance to do some proper dmg to new 2W marines, even small squad.

I look at Warp Talons and see 2A and no Overwatch, I look at CC Oblits and they have 3A and chance for 3D.
WTF? Tell me I got it all wrong? 8ed seem to be mor costly and there will be less meat on table but I dont see how 14 normal A, and 4pw A can put a dent at anything other than 5man squad of normal marines(in case of Raptors)

keep in mind Primaris Marines are limited to squad sizes of 5.

That helps, but I have done some math and compared some of our CC options, CC Oblits put 2 1D at worst roll to 6 3D at best, for the same price Warp Talons do something close to 4/5 1D and Raptors are just sad, Posesed do 5A to 15A poweraxe(They are just bloody boring)
Why GW still think that total random output on unit is a good thing? I dont mind some random stuff, give them some table with random efects on weapon, like cycle beetwen sword, axe and mace, but give it steady statline, Spawns are for random mess.

Azoqu wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Look at the space on the Thousand Sons page half of it is open. Adding a single note that Thousand Sons can use strategy points to re-roll psychic points would have been stupidly easy. As is the CP we are going to be getting is much lower then most other armies since we are going to be paying a feth ton more for the units..

Honestly, all things Tzeentch should have peril mitigation or buff to psychics. Rubrics and Scarabs will almost never cast powers because the 1/18 chance of watching the squad annihilate itself if just not worth the risk for 1 wound. I would have preferred to have the casting power of Horrors and just use a single D6 to cast and never have the chance to nuke myself.

On a side note, warptalons have 2 lightning claws, so they gain 2 extra attacks and not just 1.

I have no idea how you are coming to the conclusion that warp talons would get 2 extra attacks. The LC rule states one extra attack for having two claws. They have two claws, so one extra attack. Not two.

Smite on rubrics and SoT is rather bad...

I mean, on average it does 0.9444 mortal wounds per cast.
However, perils are nasty. and you got 1/18 chance for it.

The rubric aspiring would die if he perils, and land d3 MW on his unit, so on average 3 MW, or 0.166 MW per cast. and not many units cost more per wound than the asp sorcerer.

On the SoC, he might actually survive the perils, but when he doesnt its nastier, and the total comes up the same 3MW average.



So unless the target is hard to chip wound off, or a really expensive wound/point ratio, its not a great idea to cast smite.
And that's before denying is even considered.



Now, as for Scarabs-I don't dig them.
Yea, they got slightly cheaper, and shoot a bit better.
But the sorcerer took a massive hit with the casting being sorta useless (and he already was 2W, so he didn't get a boost there unlike other termis), and the unit got worse invuls now then they used to have.

They cost 227 base, not much cheaper than old 250 base. and you only save 11 points in upgrade costs when you pack missile+reaper combo.44 points saved is nice, but they were not too hot before, and other terminators have gotten better.
Honestly, I'm not sure I'll take a SoC over a rubric.



In any case, the boon of TS.
Given that you took a sorcerer on a disk/foot with a force stave, the exalted is a bit cheaper than him, and strictly superior. might as well pack them.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

Azoqu wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Look at the space on the Thousand Sons page half of it is open. Adding a single note that Thousand Sons can use strategy points to re-roll psychic points would have been stupidly easy. As is the CP we are going to be getting is much lower then most other armies since we are going to be paying a feth ton more for the units..

Honestly, all things Tzeentch should have peril mitigation or buff to psychics. Rubrics and Scarabs will almost never cast powers because the 1/18 chance of watching the squad annihilate itself if just not worth the risk for 1 wound. I would have preferred to have the casting power of Horrors and just use a single D6 to cast and never have the chance to nuke myself.

On a side note, warptalons have 2 lightning claws, so they gain 2 extra attacks and not just 1.

I have no idea how you are coming to the conclusion that warp talons would get 2 extra attacks. The LC rule states one extra attack for having two claws. They have two claws, so one extra attack. Not two.

He's right.
The rules for the single claw state that you get an extra attack from it when fighting, warp talons got two claws means two extra attacks.

No, the rules for lightning claws state, if a model is armed with two of them, "it can make one additional attack with them". Not "can make one additional attack with each"

Also, who/what has malefic talons?

No, the rule states that if you have two LC's, you gain ONE additional attack. Not two.

Yea, but that would be kind of the equivalent of the same special rule stacking onto itself, which is something that GW typically doesn't allow. Technically speaking you get lightning claw effect from each claw and it says "this" weapon, which would give you a second attack, but I'm not so sure that's intended.

 BoomWolf wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

Azoqu wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Look at the space on the Thousand Sons page half of it is open. Adding a single note that Thousand Sons can use strategy points to re-roll psychic points would have been stupidly easy. As is the CP we are going to be getting is much lower then most other armies since we are going to be paying a feth ton more for the units..

Honestly, all things Tzeentch should have peril mitigation or buff to psychics. Rubrics and Scarabs will almost never cast powers because the 1/18 chance of watching the squad annihilate itself if just not worth the risk for 1 wound. I would have preferred to have the casting power of Horrors and just use a single D6 to cast and never have the chance to nuke myself.

On a side note, warptalons have 2 lightning claws, so they gain 2 extra attacks and not just 1.

He's right.
The rules for the single claw state that you get an extra attack from it when fighting, warp talons got two claws means two extra attacks.

I have no idea how you are coming to the conclusion that warp talons would get 2 extra attacks. The LC rule states one extra attack for having two claws. They have two claws, so one extra attack. Not two.

I havent see LC entry but that table on Warp Talons is writen for SINGLE claw, So indded it might be the case, that would make WarpTalons better than CC Oblits, and waaay better than Raptors(unless crazy good wargear), shame Talons cant take Mark/Icon(I wanted to try stack Nurgle -1Ld with Raptors -1Ld )

 Vryce wrote:
No, the rule states that if you have two LC's, you gain ONE additional attack. Not two.

It doesn't say that in the entry for warp talons. Where is this version from?

 Roknar wrote:

 Vryce wrote:
No, the rule states that if you have two LC's, you gain ONE additional attack. Not two.

It doesn't say that in the entry for warp talons. Where is this version from?

In the rules for Lightning Claws in the Chaos Melee weapons list.

The entry in the melee weapons list has a different rules text. It says if a model is armed with two lightning claws, each time it fights it can make 1 additional attack with them. That would only give you 1 additional attack.

wait nvm, that's what you said, So you only gain a single attack with two lightnign claws

TBH I think TSons are going to be relying on proper Sorcerers to do the casting, the squad leaders exert a solid psychic protection net that ensures never having to worry which spell needs to be dispelled even when the enemy concentrates a team of casters at a specific point in your line.

Banding around Chaos Lords definitely looks smart. Two Havoc Squads, a Chosen Plasma squad, that's some serious firepower re-rolling 1's. Bikers, they get lots of dakka, again rerolls look good. I'm seeing arguments for them holding their meltaguns, being able to blaze away with four shots each isn't too shabby.

 Vryce wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

 Vryce wrote:
No, the rule states that if you have two LC's, you gain ONE additional attack. Not two.

It doesn't say that in the entry for warp talons. Where is this version from?

In the rules for Lightning Claws in the Chaos Melee weapons list.

Yup, it dose, but at the same time Warp Talons LC is writen for single claw. Gods damn you GW be consistent.

Not sure what the point of fallen is atm. Fallen are better chosen and have built in re-rolls. They can have the same amount and types of weapons and can even keep their boltgun and take a melee weapon, something the chosen can' do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GrenAcid wrote:

 Vryce wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

 Vryce wrote:
No, the rule states that if you have two LC's, you gain ONE additional attack. Not two.

It doesn't say that in the entry for warp talons. Where is this version from?

In the rules for Lightning Claws in the Chaos Melee weapons list.

Yup, it dose, but at the same time Warp Talons LC is writen for single claw. Gods damn you GW be consistent.

Hah the game isn't even out yet and already there are a few things that are going to pop up in YMDC. Sounds like GW being consistent to me

Huh, I hadn't noticed Warp Talons wording was different. It does seem they get an extra for each. Interesting.

Edit: wait a minute. They only have one attack anyway, so they can only use one plus the extra attack. It works out the same either way. Now I'm sad.

Edit two: but the champ gets two attacks, so one with each claw and the bonus for each. So all told, a unit of five would get 12 attacks

 GrenAcid wrote:
So no one gonna coment on Possed being joke again? They are inch faster power axe marines with random A.

On the other hand we have Raptors with 1A, so that means if -special weapon list- contain power weapons, we look at 4 PW attacks with champion. Arent combat suposed to be bloody and fast? Or Im reading something wrong, 10man Raptor squad have very little chance to do some proper dmg to new 2W marines, even small squad.

I look at Warp Talons and see 2A and no Overwatch, I look at CC Oblits and they have 3A and chance for 3D.
WTF? Tell me I got it all wrong? 8ed seem to be mor costly and there will be less meat on table but I dont see how 14 normal A, and 4pw A can put a dent at anything other than 5man squad of normal marines(in case of Raptors)

They can deepstrike and charge now.

Im lookin at those CSM and cant help to think that all old stuff is weaker than new chaos toys.

Im lookin at Defiler(my first chaos mini ever) and Forgefiend and cant grasp why model with just 2W more, 1A less is 16 Power and 216pts base compared to 10 Power and 119pts.
If looks like its not enough for GW so only option to get more CC is by replacing twin heavyflamer with new CC weapon.
I trade 2D6 S5 Ap -1 D1 for 3 S12 Ap -2 D3. Dose S12 is somehow crazy good now? There is no Insta Gib IIRC in 8ed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sfshilo wrote:

 GrenAcid wrote:
So no one gonna coment on Possed being joke again? They are inch faster power axe marines with random A.

On the other hand we have Raptors with 1A, so that means if -special weapon list- contain power weapons, we look at 4 PW attacks with champion. Arent combat suposed to be bloody and fast? Or Im reading something wrong, 10man Raptor squad have very little chance to do some proper dmg to new 2W marines, even small squad.

I look at Warp Talons and see 2A and no Overwatch, I look at CC Oblits and they have 3A and chance for 3D.
WTF? Tell me I got it all wrong? 8ed seem to be mor costly and there will be less meat on table but I dont see how 14 normal A, and 4pw A can put a dent at anything other than 5man squad of normal marines(in case of Raptors)

They can deepstrike and charge now.

All 3 of them can(talons, raptor, mutilator) talons have protection ffom OW, dont know how bad it can be but I still think Talons are more reliable here out of those 3 (Raptors arent for CC imo anymore - but they have -1LD and can take mark of khorne )

S11+ seems likely to be especially useful for punching Fortifications, though with just D3 damage it'll take a long time to bring it down. Also whilst S12 won't frag T6, it will wound it on a 2+, which is something I guess