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 Roknar wrote:
The renegade knights might have rules to dedicate them to a god, who knows.

The GW ones don't.

 Rippy wrote:
Cool thanks!
Sounds like big hitting characters are going to be carrying this edition, in general.

We ran the first game. It went well for the daemons. Tabled him by turn 5.
Were going to try again, this time he's bringing a lot more melta and lascannons into his army.

Yes and all the knights in the FW index are non GW knights. They can do whatever they want with those knights.

 Roknar wrote:
Yes and all the knights in the FW index are non GW knights. They can do whatever they want with those knights.

That is true, however, they still sell the Chaos Knight model and it now has no rules. It is different from the renegade as it does not have a carapace weapon option nor does it come with the fist.

Also true, but they have a model for them so there are going to be rules for it somewhere. And where else than in the FW chaos index unless they have plans for some OTHER chaos book. Or they just release them in a separate pdf, but that seems unlikely.

 McGibs wrote:
Skimming through the indexes again, I'm noticing the differences between CSM and CD princes.

CSM: T6 W8, which means you can hide them in units! I feel like these guys are what you take if you want a choppy chaos lord.
Be Lakor is also a sneaker at 8W.

CD: T7 W10 (so they can't hide), but they get the fancy proper daemon rules like FNP and charge bonuses.

I kinda wish they called CD Princes "Helbarons" or something, given how different the two are.

I thought any character with 10 Wounds or less couldn't be targeted if another unit is closer...going off the Focus article, at least. Does the core book say different? I'm trying to find images from there now.

 D6Damager wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
Forge World List:

No more Chaos Knights only Renegades?

As I expected the Sonic Dreadnought isn't listed, well money saved.


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Terminal wrote:

 McGibs wrote:
Skimming through the indexes again, I'm noticing the differences between CSM and CD princes.

CSM: T6 W8, which means you can hide them in units! I feel like these guys are what you take if you want a choppy chaos lord.
Be Lakor is also a sneaker at 8W.

CD: T7 W10 (so they can't hide), but they get the fancy proper daemon rules like FNP and charge bonuses.

I kinda wish they called CD Princes "Helbarons" or something, given how different the two are.

I thought any character with 10 Wounds or less couldn't be targeted if another unit is closer...going off the Focus article, at least. Does the core book say different? I'm trying to find images from there now.

No, he has it right the rule says 10 or more wounds. That said I'd rather have the CSM version as those 2 extra wounds aren't worth being constantly targeted.


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 McGibs wrote:
Interestingly, there's nothing stopping a character from summoning while he's in combat. He's not moving anyways, so might as well make some blood-sacrifices.

Exactly.


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 blackmage wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:
I just saw the new rules for Chaos Daemons.

Apparently the whole idea of a daemons appearing from the warp all over the place has been thrown out the window. I guess they all just walk around like people now.

Not to mention they removed the Herald of Nurgle on a Palanquin. It was a really cool thing that they were too lazy to make a mini for and now that laziness has finally gotten the better of them. "Palanquins? That's just for Epidemius. Also, Ku'Gath isn't in the game anymore..." Alright. So not only do I not get to play with my conversion, but whoever owns this thing can't play with his, either.

Spoiler:

People with conversions these intense tend to be a little miffed when you remove the units that we spent so much time and money making ourselves.

proabably they will be back when demon codex will be out.

Most likely. I could see Daemonic Assault return as a stratagem.

Okay, here's a question - do Slaaneshi icons make DTTFE work on a 5, even if the 5 is a miss? I'm particularly thinking about Overwatch, there.

Did a bit of mathhammer, with a Plasma Chosen squad of Slaanesh and a Lord's buff, with supercharged shots at close range:

12 shots to start with: 8 hits, 2 DTTFE, 2 1's

2 1's are re-rolled: 1.33 hits, 0.33 DTTFE, 0.33 overheat

2.33 DTTFE shots: 1.55 hits, 0.39 1's

0.39 1's are re-rolled: 0.26 hits, 0.06 overheat

Total hits: 11.14
Total overheats: 0.41

Impressive!

Damage output:

T4, 2+ or 5++:

9.28 successful Wounds, 6.18 failed saves. Standard 'Tactical' Terminator squad wiped out.

T4, 4++:
4.64 failed saves. Add in Bolter fire and Cataphractii squad wiped out or reduced to a dead man walking.

T4, 3++:
3.09 failed saves. THSS Squad takes heavy casualties.

T5, 3++:
7.42 successful Wounds, 2.47 failed saves. Fair chance at two dead Thunderwolves.

T6, 3++:
As above. Guilliman probably heavily wounded.

T7, 3+:
7.42 successful Wounds, 6.18 failed saves. Dreadnought dead, Rhino class tank dead.

T8, 2+:
5.57 successful Wounds, 3.71 failed saves. With a little luck, Land Raider class tank down to half health.

On top of this, the Chaos Lord can contribute another Combi-Plasma (not supercharged, as we are not going to risk this unit losing the re-rolls that maintains a high Wounds output), and a melee weapon, to make a royal mess of anything braving their Overwatch with a charge.

This is a formidable unit. I think we might want one in a Rhino and one in a Dreadclaw, and familiarise ourselves with ways their accuracy or ability to OW may be hit so that we can plan how to support it (I suspect a Heldrake will be our go-to assassination unit). Especially since a single extra Elite (or HS, if you go the Havoc route) will net us a bonus CP. A cheap Hell Talon will net us a second, if the DC is a Flyer that will fill out a Wing. (I'm going to try making a DC by gluing a Tyrannocyte together with its mouth and bumhole switched around)

Correct me if I'm wrong

but are Marks of Chaos gone?

Like, I don't see anywhere in the book that lets units take Mark of Nurgle for +1 T.

Squee!!! So pumped for Plague Hulk, cannot get this smile off my face.

With S8 2W Plasma in mind, I think 3W infantry are going to be a useful asset - we're going to see corpse-lovers deploying similar Sternguard/Captain combos, and 3W means half of their own supercharged shots will only take off a single wound. With their Resilience, Nurglings will be able to tank quite a lot.

Hmm. If they have a Plasma DP squad and we have a Plasma DC squad, how do we play this? The first one to arrive will likely get jumped on by the other. Perhaps present a bait unit, let them drop and kill it, drop on the Sternguard and kill them, then - assuming Dreadclaws work as they do now - jump back in and head for next target?

Standing firm on the drop site is an option as well. The Lord can Summon backup whilst the squad gets dug in to ruins.


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 Talamare wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong

but are Marks of Chaos gone?

Like, I don't see anywhere in the book that lets units take Mark of Nurgle for +1 T.

Pretty much. You can choose an alignment but it doesn't get you anything in itself, other than unlocking certain Icons.

 Talamare wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong

but are Marks of Chaos gone?

Like, I don't see anywhere in the book that lets units take Mark of Nurgle for +1 T.

I am pretty sure these bonuses are gone.

We will see something similar in the individual codices.
I think the Death Guard codex will have these benefits built in to the units

I just played with the new rules yesterday because our GW manager had the indexes out and said we could play with the new rules. It's a lot better. So stop complaining

 fwlr wrote:
I just played with the new rules yesterday because our GW manager had the indexes out and said we could play with the new rules. It's a lot better. So stop complaining

While I'm in favor of 8th.. That's not going to convince anyone if that's your way of arguing for 8th.

 fwlr wrote:
I just played with the new rules yesterday because our GW manager had the indexes out and said we could play with the new rules. It's a lot better. So stop complaining

Are you even paying attention to what people are complaining about?

 mrhappyface wrote:

 fwlr wrote:
I just played with the new rules yesterday because our GW manager had the indexes out and said we could play with the new rules. It's a lot better. So stop complaining

Are you even paying attention to what people are complaining about?

most of the complaints consist of "I'm not OP anymore!@ 8th ed is aweful!" or "I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE PRIMARIS MARINE FLUFF BUT IT'S AWEFUL I ASSURE YOU!"

Any thoughts on the KSons? I took the plunge today, buying 20 rubircae and some exalted, had a blast building them and I'm on my way to play with them tomorrow.

I also have Ahriman, some Scarab Occult and a rhino in the post, so I'm pretty excited about that.

What are some of the cool combinations you guys see? Any really bad units, or good ones?

I agree most complaints are that they can't just win all the time.

But there are a few valid concerns. I was disappointed with how bland the Chaos book was without the Legion rules that we just got. My Night Lords were sad, but hopefully they will churn out the Codexes quickly and we will get them back.

On the flip side, I really like the Nurgle Models and have just dropped £200 on two box sets and the Nurgle Daemon Get started sets.

Terminators
Has anyone had a chance to play with Terminators yet? I got so excited that I bought two Terminator Lords, one of which I've built as a sorcerer. I've always loved terminators, and may be the only person in the world who likes the Terminator models. And they're a joy to paint!

I was thinking something like the following:
5x Terminators (304pts):
2x Power Fist and Combi-Melta (champion here)
2x Power Axe and Combi-Melta
1x Power Axe and Reaper Autocannon

I can't not have the Reaper Autocannon, as it's just too cool looking (though the D1 makes me sad). I was thinking of putting in a Combi-Flamer on one of the Power Fist guys, but I still think specialisation is the name of the game.


Daemon Princes
Also, what are people's thoughts on how much of a bully DPs are in the pool of monstrous creatures. I'm not saying that they're underpowered for their cost, but do we get the feeling that in the yard of monstrous creatures, the DP is more of a scrappy pipsqueak than a front row forward?

BrianDavion wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 fwlr wrote:
I just played with the new rules yesterday because our GW manager had the indexes out and said we could play with the new rules. It's a lot better. So stop complaining

Are you even paying attention to what people are complaining about?

most of the complaints consist of "I'm not OP anymore!@ 8th ed is aweful!" or "I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE PRIMARIS MARINE FLUFF BUT IT'S AWEFUL I ASSURE YOU!"

From what I've seen most people have been saying how great 8th looks compared to 7th, the only consistent complaints (from chaos players at least) are how dissappointed we are that we have lost legion rules, marks of chaos and artifacts (especially since we only just got legion rules back) these were all things that made chaos very personalised and fun to play. So no we haven't been complaining about how we aren't OP anymore (although that would suggest that chaos was OP last edition).

As for the Primaris marine complaints, from what I've seen, the majority of complaints about Primaris have come from loyalist players worried that old Marines are going to get phased out.

So once again I ask: Are you even paying attention to what people are complaining about?


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 gummyofallbears wrote:
Any thoughts on the KSons? I took the plunge today, buying 20 rubircae and some exalted, had a blast building them and I'm on my way to play with them tomorrow.

I also have Ahriman, some Scarab Occult and a rhino in the post, so I'm pretty excited about that.

What are some of the cool combinations you guys see? Any really bad units, or good ones?

I would most certainly get a chaos Lord in the Rhinos with the Rubricae for the re-rolling 1s to hit, in fact put another Chaos Lord in Termi armour and drop him down with the scarab occult termies: A standard unit would have 20x S4 AP-2 D1 shots re-rolling 1s, and then you can charge them; 8x Power sword attacks, 2x Force stave attacks and whatever the lord has brought to the fight.

Any points left after Rubricae and Occult can be put into Ahriman and friends flying round causing mischief.


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TonyH122 wrote:
Terminators
Has anyone had a chance to play with Terminators yet? I got so excited that I bought two Terminator Lords, one of which I've built as a sorcerer. I've always loved terminators, and may be the only person in the world who likes the Terminator models. And they're a joy to paint!

I was thinking something like the following:
5x Terminators (304pts):
2x Power Fist and Combi-Melta (champion here)
2x Power Axe and Combi-Melta
1x Power Axe and Reaper Autocannon

I can't not have the Reaper Autocannon, as it's just too cool looking (though the D1 makes me sad). I was thinking of putting in a Combi-Flamer on one of the Power Fist guys, but I still think specialisation is the name of the game.


Daemon Princes
Also, what are people's thoughts on how much of a bully DPs are in the pool of monstrous creatures. I'm not saying that they're underpowered for their cost, but do we get the feeling that in the yard of monstrous creatures, the DP is more of a scrappy pipsqueak than a front row forward?

I played against someone using the DV terminators and they weren't too bad, what you have there looks pretty nice and everything seemed very balanced: power fists and chainfists would splat a unit but they were -1 to hit and power swords hit better but they were no good against big monsters. i definitely thought the power axe was the best melee weapon though: a Chaos champion with a power axe multched through so much!

As for DP, I think they are now just big Chaos Lords rather than flying tanky power houses, kind of like how they used to be back in 3.5.

 mrhappyface wrote:

As for DP, I think they are now just big Chaos Lords rather than flying tanky power houses, kind of like how they used to be back in 3.5.

I think that sounds about right. I don't think they look bad at all, but I would be cool it if Chaos Marines had an MC that was one of the biggest and baddest out there. I suppose that's what Greater Daemons are for, although they don't give buffs to CSM. But then it's probably understandable that some warp-forged uber-daemons aren't that interested in giving buffs to some puny mortals

TonyH122 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

As for DP, I think they are now just big Chaos Lords rather than flying tanky power houses, kind of like how they used to be back in 3.5.

I think that sounds about right. I don't think they look bad at all, but I would be cool it if Chaos Marines had an MC that was one of the biggest and baddest out there. I suppose that's what Greater Daemons are for, although they don't give buffs to CSM. But then it's probably understandable that some warp-forged uber-daemons aren't that interested in giving buffs to some puny mortals

Aye, and as soon as we get the Daemon Lords back then it won't matter about what units are supporting our 50ft* tall monsters capable of tearing banebladesin half with a well placed toot.

*Warning, monsters may in fact only be 12" tall.

Okay, folks, so we can't have a pistol, rifle, *and* chainsword. On top of that, no matter what weapon a soldier fires, they can then charge. I think we need to reassess how we arm our squads.

Obviously a ranged unit wants to take boltguns. Obviously a melee unit wants to take chainswords. The question is, what sidearm do they want?

A ranged unit's firepower gains no benefit from bolt pistols. If it has to charge an enemy unit, bolt pistols are worse than chainswords in the first round of combat. If the combat goes on to the enemy turn and the enemy do not disengage, bolt pistols are worse than chainswords. If the brawl goes on until our next turn, bolt pistols are marginally better IN THIS TURN than chainswords if we want another engaged unit to strike earlier - BUT this is at the expense of two chainsword swings that could have been taken earlier.

If a ranged unit gets charged, chainsword are better. If the fight goes on to our turn, bolt pistols are marginally better IN THIS TURN than chainswords if we want another engaged unit to strike first - BUT this is at the expense of a chainsword swing we could have taken last turn.

If either brawl goes on for many turns, chainswords are about 50% better than bolt pistols.

Conclusion: I think ranged units benefit a lot more from chainswords as their sidearms, and we should definitely take advantage of this difference. If loyalists are restricted to BG/BP on their troopers, we've got an edge on them when it comes to brawling over objectives. If you've got Prospero, start distributing out those awesome holstered chainswords to any riflemen and heavy gunners that might get pounced upon.

A melee unit armed with boltguns will inflict twice as much Overwatch damage if it finds itself exposed and charged, compared with pistols. (I suspect a revision may see Pistols gain a 'quickdraw' bonus to OW, but this is a long way off.) If the melee continues to our turn, we will get an extra attack from the pistols.

A melee unit that charges and is armed with boltguns will inflict more casualties before charging. (This can be a benefit - it will mean less Overwatch fire - but it can also mean the enemy take casualties from the front and we end up out of charge range; common sense will be needed to avoid overkill.) If the melee continues to the enemy turn and the enemy do not fall back, the sidearm will make no difference. But, if it continues to our following turn, a pistol will give a bonus attack; this is at the expense of fewer shots before the charge last turn, which would usually be better.

Conclusion: If we are close to an unengaged enemy, boltguns can be a benefit to a melee unit, especially if it is Khornate and re-rolls bad charges after the enemy remove the nearby models. But overall, when it comes down to a difficult to predict multi-unit brawl, pistols will probably remain useful.

Overall conclusion: the standard Heretic Astartes weapon is the Chainsword, and it is the choice of pistol vs rifle that we should be considering when building a unit.

Pistols seem acceptable for dedicated melee units who expect to spend a lot of turns in close quarters combat, there seems no pressing argument to switch them out for rifles. Boltguns are obvious for gunner units.

Units hanging out with a gunline to counter-charge enemies that reach the gunners may as well also carry boltguns, so that they can take shots when they are not in a brawl.

Units intended to ride in transports should probably carry boltguns. If their transport starts the turn nearly a foot away from their quarry, they can jump out 3", walk 6", open up with their rifles, then still be in charge range of the survivors; if they destroy the enemy unit, they'll be a dangerous prospect for a revenge charge.

Edit: HAHAHA DISREGARD ALL THAT

Are you sure about that? CSM entry says "Any Chaos Space Marine may replace his Boltgun with a Chainsword", it doesn't say you can have a boltgun and a chainsword.

Wow Lindsay... That's a pretty impressive assessment I had not even considered. You are completely right.

Further thoughts on the Demon prince, I think he is now back to where he should have been per the fluff. Chaos lords are now about where you'd expect a chaos space marine to be before he sold his soul and became a demon Prince, and the demon princes are obviously substantially better, but nowhere near the powerhouse of a greater demon. They're also much better shredding infantry or vehicles I think. 8 wounds is gonna get stomped by some other monstrous creatures. Tabletop Tactics had a report with a termigon nuking a DP in a single turn with just 2 hits. Anything with the potential to do 6 or more damage in a single turn needs to be respected.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Okay, folks, so we can't have a pistol, rifle, *and* chainsword. On top of that, no matter what weapon a soldier fires, they can then charge. I think we need to reassess how we arm our squads.

Obviously a ranged unit wants to take boltguns. Obviously a melee unit wants to take chainswords. The question is, what sidearm do they want?

A ranged unit's firepower gains no benefit from bolt pistols. If it has to charge an enemy unit, bolt pistols are worse than chainswords in the first round of combat. If the combat goes on to the enemy turn and the enemy do not disengage, bolt pistols are worse than chainswords. If the brawl goes on until our next turn, bolt pistols are marginally better IN THIS TURN than chainswords if we want another engaged unit to strike earlier - BUT this is at the expense of two chainsword swings that could have been taken earlier.

If a ranged unit gets charged, chainsword are better. If the fight goes on to our turn, bolt pistols are marginally better IN THIS TURN than chainswords if we want another engaged unit to strike first - BUT this is at the expense of a chainsword swing we could have taken last turn.

If either brawl goes on for many turns, chainswords are about 50% better than bolt pistols.

Conclusion: I think ranged units benefit a lot more from chainswords as their sidearms, and we should definitely take advantage of this difference. If loyalists are restricted to BG/BP on their troopers, we've got an edge on them when it comes to brawling over objectives. If you've got Prospero, start distributing out those awesome holstered chainswords to any riflemen and heavy gunners that might get pounced upon.

A melee unit armed with boltguns will inflict twice as much Overwatch damage if it finds itself exposed and charged, compared with pistols. (I suspect a revision may see Pistols gain a 'quickdraw' bonus to OW, but this is a long way off.) If the melee continues to our turn, we will get an extra attack from the pistols.

A melee unit that charges and is armed with boltguns will inflict more casualties before charging. (This can be a benefit - it will mean less Overwatch fire - but it can also mean the enemy take casualties from the front and we end up out of charge range; common sense will be needed to avoid overkill.) If the melee continues to the enemy turn and the enemy do not fall back, the sidearm will make no difference. But, if it continues to our following turn, a pistol will give a bonus attack; this is at the expense of fewer shots before the charge last turn, which would usually be better.

Conclusion: If we are close to an unengaged enemy, boltguns can be a benefit to a melee unit, especially if it is Khornate and re-rolls bad charges after the enemy remove the nearby models. But overall, when it comes down to a difficult to predict multi-unit brawl, pistols will probably remain useful.

Overall conclusion: the standard Heretic Astartes weapon is the Chainsword, and it is the choice of pistol vs rifle that we should be considering when building a unit.

Pistols seem acceptable for dedicated melee units who expect to spend a lot of turns in close quarters combat, there seems no pressing argument to switch them out for rifles. Boltguns are obvious for gunner units.

Units hanging out with a gunline to counter-charge enemies that reach the gunners may as well also carry boltguns, so that they can take shots when they are not in a brawl.

Units intended to ride in transports should probably carry boltguns. If their transport starts the turn nearly a foot away from their quarry, they can jump out 3", walk 6", open up with their rifles, then still be in charge range of the survivors; if they destroy the enemy unit, they'll be a dangerous prospect for a revenge charge.

I'm confused. As I look over the CSM entry, there is no option for replacing a bolt pistol with a chainsword. Indeed, the only way CSM can get rid of a bolt pistol is by replacing it with a plasma pistol (and only one can). The only choice is between a boltgun and a chainsword.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Are you sure about that? CSM entry says "Any Chaos Space Marine may replace his Boltgun with a Chainsword", it doesn't say you can have a boltgun and a chainsword.

I have wasted my life

That's a whole lot of words and analysis for an impossible proposition.

 lindsay40k wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Are you sure about that? CSM entry says "Any Chaos Space Marine may replace his Boltgun with a Chainsword", it doesn't say you can have a boltgun and a chainsword.

I have wasted my life

You have wasted a large portion of time, all you need to do now is waste a large portion of money and you'll be a 40k pro in no time!

When playing match play and you purchase a unit, example Heldrake. Is it legal to purchase zero wargear for the unit?