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 The Shrike wrote:


-You need at least 1 infantry unit in a Fish to have any chance in the Relic.

Do you mean for the speed to get to the relic? and to physically block LOS to your troops behind it?

Well only infantry can now hold the relic, and you can't get back into a vehicle if you've got it. Battlesuits, other than stealths, are not infantry.

Personally I'd want to have a character grab it, then put models in the way to keep them from being shot - and have drones take the hits for them. This seems like a decent option for someone like darkstrider or a fireblade.

The ultimate relic stealer is probably shadowsun. She can start off in contact with it, then run off. Unlike in previous editions, there's nothing to say your move ends when you grab the relic.

On an entirely different subject, I think I quite like the coldstar commander. Give it an ATS and some other support system (many are good) and have it zoom around. It can sit in your castle and call kauyon on turn 1, then fly off and have a good time.

It's not as outright devastating as a fusion suit, but it makes a good warlord as it's quite hard to kill. Its incredible movement will be a major asset at the end of objective games.

It looks to me that playing Tau effectively will sometimes require doing stuff in the assault phase. In particular I think we'll charge things with our ghostkeels quite often, so as to prevent them from doing annoying things to us in the following turn. Ghostkeels look like a really great harrassment unit to me.

MilkmanAl wrote:
I'm gonna get my game on this weekend. Here's the list I plan to roll with, and I could use some C&C:

Brigade Detachment
Longstrike - railgun, 2sms, 2 seekers - 215
4 Commanders - 3x4 fusions, 1 with 3 fusions, DC, 8 gun drones - 681
6x7 FW - 336
3x5 PF - 120
3 Firesight Marksmen - 63
3 hammerheads - railgun, 2 SMS, 2 seekers - 585
2000 on the nose

I think this is on the right track. You're set for knights or parking lots; the only thing I would consider is losing a Hammerhead for a Devilfish and shifting some extra firewarriors to make one large squad of 12 to go in it. The Relic demands it, and even other missions are going to have an objective you need to surround with models a distance away. Otherwise, let us know how it goes.

I just got a peek at the Y'Vahra rules on the Community site and I am licking my chops. Somehow it got BETTER.

The Y'vahra mostly got better in firepower, but it also became a lot more vulnerable to assault (while simultaneously having its own ways of mitigating that if the Y'vahra can survive it) due to the shortened range of its Flamer weapon. the Haywire gun has a decent profile but meh damage (made up for, somewhat, with the chance for mortal wounds on vehicles) and has more shots, on average, when Novaing.

The flamer got an arguably significant upgrade in effectiveness, starting out baseline with a double-the-shots Flamer template at 6/-2/D3. That's a decent anti-infantry/light tank profile, and not bad at all even for the medium and heavy tanks at 3 damage a pop! Seriously, that's just below a Lascannon's average, and that's 2 templates' worth of autohits. What used to be an at-will Gets Hot profile choice for the flamer became Nova dependent, and traded a bit of its penetrative abilities for an extra template's worth of shots.

Which can be boosted by ATS, by and by. So if that's really a problematic tradeoff, grab an ATS and burn the Greater Good right into 'em.

Their ability to Nova and exit the game for a turn seems to have fairly limited usage, given that the Y'vahra can only come back more than 9" away from an enemy (and so only the Ionic Discharge Cannon would get to shoot that turn, which would be a saddening event). It seems mostly worth it if you need to relocate him across the entire board with nothing worthwhile to annihilate between (so losing out on a turn of Flamer shooting isn't as big of a deal) OR if your Y'vahra gets stuck in combat despite its Fly ability.

I'd rather see my Y'vahra hopping 18" from ablative wound pool to ablative wound pool (whoops, did I misname my Tactical Drones again?) within 6-8" of an enemy unit or two and annihilate all in its path, preferrably laughing maniacally while the anti-infantry bullets headed its way get tanked by the T7 2+ profile while the Lascannon-esque shots get diverted to a nearby Shield or Gun Drone.

I don't think it got worse at all, barring an exorbitant points cost...we don't have that yet. If it's around 400 with its weapons, Multi-tracker/Stims and ATS, as I expect it to be, that isn't too much. This thing is better than a Stormsurge.

As for vulnerability to assault, that can be managed by ensuring that it stays within its lane. We can't just throw it into the middle of the board. Just like Crisis, we have to let it play at the edges, nuking everything in its range, then moving in again a little closer. And if it does get charged? Hello 2-3d6 auto hits at S6 -3 (with ATS) 3 dmg. Like, good luck. The only thing she'll be vulnerable to is really large units like orks and little bugs but the rest of our army is really good at killing those so hey, #targetpriority.

I'm nervous about the points but I'm thrilled about the profile. I was worried about the nerf bat.

MilkmanAl wrote:
I'm gonna get my game on this weekend. Here's the list I plan to roll with, and I could use some C&C:

Brigade Detachment
Longstrike - railgun, 2sms, 2 seekers - 215
4 Commanders - 3x4 fusions, 1 with 3 fusions, DC, 8 gun drones - 681
6x7 FW - 336
3x5 PF - 120
3 Firesight Marksmen - 63
3 hammerheads - railgun, 2 SMS, 2 seekers - 585
2000 on the nose

Sorry to ruin the party, but mathematical analysis (done by others) reveals that hammerheads are just...bad.
Even with longstrike's aura. even longstrike himself.

They are outdone by the generalist Tri-CIB/ATS commander even against heavy tanks, the quad-fusion commander outpreforms against practically everything that has more than one wound. outside the "melta range", in it the difference is drastic.
hammerheads are outdone against anything without a +2 save (yes, even against knights) by gun drones, pathfinders with ion or rail rifles (and if you are in rapid range, rail rifles are just superior in all cases).
A breacher's pulse blaster is ALWAYS BETTER, even at mere medium range, at short it becomes godly superior.

(all thosh are not looking by how much a gun does, but by how much it does compared to what it costs.)


The hammerhead's only merit, it's godlike range, is simply irrelevant for a regular gaming table. and even on a huge one-they just don't put out any reasonable amount of wounds.
Longstrike himself, with marker reroll, will only average between 2 to 4 wounds against the heavy targets (3.5 to raider, 3 to IK/riptide/BT, 4 to a russ, 2 to a GUO)
The hammers naturally fare worse.

They are FAR too expensive to what they actually do, and packing lingstrike and 3 more hammers is just setting yourself up to disaster. hammers are somehow even worse than they were back in 7th.

Efficiency comparisons are great and all, but they're not always reflective of performance. On paper, rail rifle pathfinders might do more wounds at a cheaper cost than railgun hammerheads, but the pathfinder team loses efficiency a lot faster than the hammerhead as it starts taking wounds. So at the end of a game, you might find that the hammerhead ended up doing a better job dealing wounds for its cost than the pathfinders. Or maybe not. But I'd be surprised if a list that relied on pathfinders with special weapons, breachers at close-medium range, and copious amounts of gun drones as the primary sources of damage did particularly well.

Peregrim wrote:
Efficiency comparisons are great and all, but they're not always reflective of performance.

Well yes and no. Efficiency calculations tend to only focus on the damage a weapon does, not how easy it is to bring it to bear on its target or how survivable its platform is. It's a bit silly to compare the damage of a railhead against a knight with that of gun drones, when the railhead can hit the knight from 72" away and not have to deal with the huge risk of being charged by the knight.

But they do tell you how powerful a gun is. And in effect a hammerhead's railgun isn't all that much more powerful than a lascannon, but you can have a lot of lascannons in an army. A railhead has to be compared to a quad-las predator, and I'm afraid the marine vehicle is just obviously better.

So the railhead has to justify its points in terms of killing the knight at all. And the problem is that it will fail to do so. A las predator is nearly 4x as good at killing most vehicles, compared to a railhead.

I think they should have made railguns do 2d6 damage. That would both make it more consistent and also make it actually do something worth bothering with. If guns aren't going to have many shots then those shots must do a lot of damage. Otherwise you end up with the situation where you can try to do 1d6 damage with a railhead, or 4d6 with a cheaper crisis commander. It doesn't take long to pick.

On an entirely different subject, I'm a bit worried by what I've seen so far of that FW index. I don't think it looks very balanced, which is worrying, given FW's history. Hope that I'm wrong.

The Y'vahra.... I'm saved.

It's godly.

Would be happy with 400pts. This beast will blow chunks off things!

I don't think it is a secret, that currently in the index, commanders and gun drones rock the kasbah in comparison to everything else.

Most other things seem usable at least. I found longstrike and two hammerheads, all with ion cannons alright in my first 8th ed game. I think your paying allot for the durability and flying aspect though.

I just love the aesthetic of Tau tanks, so i'll try to make them work. Plus it is just an index, chances are when the real codex comes out, if GW are indeed listening, I wouldn't go investing in commander models and gun drones (although most Tau players have plenty of the latter and commanders are easily made out of crisis suits..)

Efficiency comparisons are great and all, but they're not always reflective of performance.

Indeed. Riptides would've never been used in 7th if firepower per point was all that mattered. Broadsides and Breachers would've ruled the roost.

Anyway, I agree that Hammerheads are not anywhere near as good as Predators, but I'm not convinced there isn't a place for them when buffed by Longstrike. Under those circumstances, they'll essentially always hit. (Getting 1 marker hit on whatever they're targeting is trivial with universal split-fire.) They have great range and can fly away from assaults, so it's not all bad. For the same cost, you get a Commander and 6 Gun Drones, and I would wager that's not as durable as the Hammerhead's T7 3+ frame.

Hopefully we get some adjustments come codex time. A ~15pt decrease would make them plenty viable. Riptides need a solid 40-50pt drop, too.

The Y'Vahra, though, hell yes. If it clocks in around 350-400, that'd probably be a fair price and tons of fun to play around with. I'm leaning towards armies that have a heavy alpha strike via deep strike, so that'd be an awesome complement.

What would compliment the Y'Vahra?

It would obviously do some heavy lifting. A quad fusion commander appears to always be a good idea, gun drones for massed firepower.

I'm leaning away from suits due to the high initial cost.

I'm still hoping for the Ion Accelerator Riptide. Assuming marker + commander support (although the commander buff is 1/game or 1/turn?).. it would hit on 97% rates, aiming for a high-roll on the D6 hits.... Just still not good enough. It feels like they've charged through the nose for the 72" range.

What would compliment the Y'Vahra?

Oh right, I didn't put my thoughts to paper too well on that one. i meant that I'd be dropping in a bunch of Commanders and drones and such, so having the Y'Vahras able to sprint forward and support them would be huge. You can only "reserve" half your army, so the other half could be Y'Vahras that get up in your opponent's business immediately, anyway. I like that Y'Vahras are still a little on the glass cannon-ish side despite being comparable with heavy vehicles. That's kind of cool, as long as they don't make them cost a bazillion points.

Standard Riptides are dead to me unless they get a tweak. There's a reason they've gotten the nickname "R.I.Ptides."

I'm of the opinion 3 Y'vahra (Point Depending) and then Multiple Commanders and as many drones you can Jam in will be pretty decent.

I think you're probably right, but it'll be tough to maximize command points that way. I'm not really sure whether doing the list gymnastics to make a Brigade detachment happen are worthwhile, but we can do it more easily than most armies with dirt-cheap and effective options in every slot with the exception of heavy support (which is why the Hammerhead thing works-ish).

MilkmanAl wrote:
I think you're probably right, but it'll be tough to maximize command points that way. I'm not really sure whether doing the list gymnastics to make a Brigade detachment happen are worthwhile, but we can do it more easily than most armies with dirt-cheap and effective options in every slot with the exception of heavy support (which is why the Hammerhead thing works-ish).

Brigades are a pain to field. Battalions on the other hand are pretty easy, so my suggestion is just to take multiples of those. All Tau troops, and most HQs, seem good. If you've got an odd number of HQs, maybe have a vanguard or outrider detachment. Ignore heavy support unless something radically changes, either with points or the damage that railguns do.

I'm starting to think that CIB crisis suits might be fairly good. I'm trying to work out how they compare to ghostkeels.

In terms of firepower there's not a lot to choose between two blasters and one raker. They are exactly the same on normal mode but the blasters average to 4 shots when overcharged, rather than 3.5. The raker does have more range of course, but this advantage is somewhat reduced because the ghostkeel's secondary weapons have the same range as the blaster (or less), so it's probably going to have to be just as close.

Ghostkeels are far tougher than crisis suits, though the ability to deep strike should guarantee at least one shot from the suits. And four guns benefit from its ATS, rather than just two. On the other hand it kind of has to buy a target lock with its second support system slot, which is expensive.

I'm considering a loadout of 3 suits, two with 2 CIBs and ATS, one with two fusion blasters and DC. They can then bring 6 marker/gun drones - or maybe even a mixture of the two. I see the ability to bring drones along, and pack a DC, to be the main benefit of crisis suits.

Anyone have thoughts or suggestions?

Its probably worth trying to list gymnastics. its a good exercise for things like tournies that might limit detachments to 1

did CIBs become available to normal suits?

Ghostkeels are a reasonable purchase for the moment, I think. They're fast, hit relatively hard, and can be pretty durable if you take care of their drones. Their worth is pending Y'Vahra points cost, though. Ghostkeels aren't cheap, and if the Y'Vahra is anything less than double a Ghostkeel, I think you're far better off with the latter. It's just better at everything.

Crisis Suits I'm not so hot on anymore. They're fragile as hell for the price, and given how flexible the force org choices are now, there's not really much reason to not use Commanders instead if you want to drop stuff in.

 Desubot wrote:
Its probably worth trying to list gymnastics. its a good exercise for things like tournies that might limit detachments to 1

did CIBs become available to normal suits?

CIBs and AFPs have been available to normal suits, in unlimited numbers, since the 6th edition codex.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Its probably worth trying to list gymnastics. its a good exercise for things like tournies that might limit detachments to 1

did CIBs become available to normal suits?

CIBs and AFPs have been available to normal suits, in unlimited numbers, since the 6th edition codex.

I could of sworn they were signature systems.

man its been a while

As far as I can see the one main reason to include crisis suits is for drone controllers. Just about any other platform values its slots too highly to stick a DC in one. Commanders might be the exception here, but the lure of the fusion commander is strong. Coldstars should have ATS and TL.

And of course, if you've got drones, you've got your survivability issues somewhat reduced. Drones die instead of your suits.

Somewhat oddly, it's arguably a good thing that suits cost a lot of points in one go. If you run a lot of suits you're significantly more likely to get first turn, and this matters an awful lot. 300+ points in a drop is a good thing when you aren't actually dropping them on the board anyway - so you still get to set them up after the other guy has deployed.

You can say the same thing about riptides too I suppose, except that those seem to be flat out over-costed - which is obviously just bad.

a Tau army that wants to go first could do stuff like put 2x6 fire warriors in each devilfish, to fill out slots without adding drops. You can potentially even put fireblades in there too.

Was there any math done on 3 CIB vs 2 CIB + Support system-of-most-benefit?

I ask because of the crazy-high cost of suits nowadays, thinking to max out the slots!

Check the Tau comments thread. there are a couple extremely useful spreadsheets in there that allow for calculation of weapon efficiency and outright list what loadouts are best. Spoiler alert: fusion wins. CIBs with ATS and/or MT were up there, as well.

I haven't done that adding up, no. But a hell of a lot of stuff has a 3+ save or better, even before cover. Turning a 3+ into a 4+ save is a 33% increase in damage - which is the same as a third CIB but costs 10 points less. So I guess it's worth it if your target would have had a 2+ save to start with. Not much actually does.

I think that velocity trackers are perhaps a weirdly good support system for suits. Lots of stuff flies, and +1 to hit is a big deal. Not so much if you meet orks though!

Plasma rifles also look an interesting option. A plasma rifle costs less than half what a missile pod does, and with its great AP you don't really need any support systems. I could see a case for running 3 dudes with 8 plasma rifles and a drone controller - assuming that DCs don't stack (I don't want to get into the debate on whether they do or not - awaiting a ruling).

Here's the sort of thing I mean by an army using suit units to reduce the number of drops. Two battalions, 9 drops at 2k:

Commander Shadowsun 195
2 Shield Drones
Command Link Drone

Commander 160
4 Fusion Blasters

Coldstar Commander 148
High-yield Burst Cannon
Missile Pod
Advanced Targeting System
Target Lock

Cadre Fireblade 42
Markerlight

5 Breachers 40

5 Breachers 56
Guardian Drone
Shield Drone
Devilfish 127
Burst Cannon
2 Gun Drones

5 Breachers 40

5 Breachers 56
Guardian Drone
Shield Drone
Devilfish 127
Burst Cannon
2 Gun Drones

5 Fire Warriors 40

5 Fire Warriors 40
Devilfish 127
Burst Cannon
2 Gun Drones

3 Crisis Suits 299
6 Plasma Rifles
2 Fusion Blasters
Drone Controller
6 Marker Drones

3 Crisis Suits 321
4 Cyclic Ion Blasters
2 Advanced Targeting Systems
2 Fusion Blasters
Drone Controller
6 Marker Drones

Ghostkeel 181
2 Stealth Drones
2 Burst Cannons
Cyclic Ion Raker
Advanced Targeting System
Target Lock

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I'm of the opinion 3 Y'vahra (Point Depending) and then Multiple Commanders and as many drones you can Jam in will be pretty decent.

It seems like, given its 20 power level, we're probably looking at 400 points. I'm definitely thinking hey'll still work best in pairs, but 3 seems like it would crowd out support units.

If we assume the three worthy systems for the Y'Vahra are ATS, TL and Stims, only one of those can be replicated in other ways. I'm going to go Stims and ATS, then take a couple units of Pathfinders and some marker drones to help the IDC. After that marker support that leaves me 1000 points for a Quad fusion commander, a Coldstar, a Breacher team in a Fish for the Relic (and other distant objectives), 20 Vespid and 30-40 Kroot.

MilkmanAl wrote:

Efficiency comparisons are great and all, but they're not always reflective of performance.

Indeed. Riptides would've never been used in 7th if firepower per point was all that mattered. Broadsides and Breachers would've ruled the roost.

Anyway, I agree that Hammerheads are not anywhere near as good as Predators, but I'm not convinced there isn't a place for them when buffed by Longstrike. Under those circumstances, they'll essentially always hit. (Getting 1 marker hit on whatever they're targeting is trivial with universal split-fire.) They have great range and can fly away from assaults, so it's not all bad. For the same cost, you get a Commander and 6 Gun Drones, and I would wager that's not as durable as the Hammerhead's T7 3+ frame.

Hopefully we get some adjustments come codex time. A ~15pt decrease would make them plenty viable. Riptides need a solid 40-50pt drop, too.

The Y'Vahra, though, hell yes. If it clocks in around 350-400, that'd probably be a fair price and tons of fun to play around with. I'm leaning towards armies that have a heavy alpha strike via deep strike, so that'd be an awesome complement.

A 15 point reduction does nothing to help the hammerhead.

The issue with the hammer is that it can't do it's one dedicated job-destroy big things.
Even at BS2 from longstrike's aura, a hammer is expected to do an average of 2.2 wounds to a land raider or 1.88 to an IK. longstrike himself does 3.19 and 2.79 wounds.
The 72" range is meaningless, the table isn't all that big.

So, longstrike and two hammers would take, on average, slightly over 5 turns on undistupted shooting in order to take down ONE knight.
Against land raiders its better, it would only take 3 turns for the trio of hammerheads to take out the land raider.

And that's when you heavily outspend them.

That's just poor performance at their dedicated job. and considering IKs are a serius threat, you'll have no choice but to bring something else to handle them, and whatever handles the IK would also double as an answer to any LR or other tanks, rendering the hammerhead moot.

Actually, I probably wouldn't use them for big game hunting. Medium targets that the SMS can deal with effectively are a better option. The Commanders would be tasked with taking down big, scary things. I'm with you that Hammerheads are underpowered, but I don't think they're anywhere near as bad as you're saying, assuming you have Longstrike around.

Edit: At this juncture, it's a bit of a moot point, anyway, since I'll probably be frying faces with Y'Vahras, assuming they don't cost an absurd amount of points. The Brigade detachment may be a lost cause for the moment, with Commanders being so much better than any other heavy weapons platform we have.

What do we think are our most effective screeners? We need cheap, fast units to stay out ahead of our Commanders, Crisis and Y'Vahras.

I'm thinking about 100 Kroot Hounds...am I crazy?

I just think that with the exception of a few big suits, we're a horde army now.

 The Shrike wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I'm of the opinion 3 Y'vahra (Point Depending) and then Multiple Commanders and as many drones you can Jam in will be pretty decent.

It seems like, given its 20 power level, we're probably looking at 400 points. I'm definitely thinking hey'll still work best in pairs, but 3 seems like it would crowd out support units.

If we assume the three worthy systems for the Y'Vahra are ATS, TL and Stims, only one of those can be replicated in other ways. I'm going to go Stims and ATS, then take a couple units of Pathfinders and some marker drones to help the IDC. After that marker support that leaves me 1000 points for a Quad fusion commander, a Coldstar, a Breacher team in a Fish for the Relic (and other distant objectives), 20 Vespid and 30-40 Kroot.

I'm definitely going to shoot for 2 storm surges and 2 Y'Vahras and then see what else I can do from there. Shadowsun's double Kauyon seems awesome, but maybe not worth the increased cost over a regular commander.

 luke1705 wrote:

 The Shrike wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I'm of the opinion 3 Y'vahra (Point Depending) and then Multiple Commanders and as many drones you can Jam in will be pretty decent.

It seems like, given its 20 power level, we're probably looking at 400 points. I'm definitely thinking hey'll still work best in pairs, but 3 seems like it would crowd out support units.

If we assume the three worthy systems for the Y'Vahra are ATS, TL and Stims, only one of those can be replicated in other ways. I'm going to go Stims and ATS, then take a couple units of Pathfinders and some marker drones to help the IDC. After that marker support that leaves me 1000 points for a Quad fusion commander, a Coldstar, a Breacher team in a Fish for the Relic (and other distant objectives), 20 Vespid and 30-40 Kroot.

I'm definitely going to shoot for 2 storm surges and 2 Y'Vahras and then see what else I can do from there. Shadowsun's double Kauyon seems awesome, but maybe not worth the increased cost over a regular commander.

But the stormsurges are so poor.