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gungo wrote:

 DaisyWondercow wrote:

 davou wrote:

 DaisyWondercow wrote:

Does a mob of 10 boyz standing next to a mob of 30 boyz get to use LD30 thanks to mob rule part 2?
Do a unit of Flash Gitz in a battlewagon ignore penalties when moving, thanks to mobile fortress?

Yes to both!

Is that just us ork players using our gestalt psychic belief field to make it so? Or do we have some solid intel on that? Because reading it, I feel like it could go either way.

The first question sounds like the entire point of mob rules.
The second question should work that way becuase of the open top transport rules that state occupants can fire following all normal rules for the vehicle.

Hmm! So, looking at mob rules, there's two parts: you can use # of models as your LD, and you can borrow LD from a friendly ork within 6". It's not clear to me that part 2 is intended to let you share that 30, or just get LD8 from your warboss.
For the second question, if open topped said "use the normal rules for the vehicle" I'd be on board (that's a transport pun), but it's "any modifiers that apply also apply to passenger". So the -1 modifier applies to both... then one might read it that the wagon gets to ignore it (per mobile fortress) while gitz do not....

I'm definitely hoping these work for us, but I'm not convinced they do.

Is mobile fortress a modified to the vehicle? Yes - and as a result, it applies to the units inside.

As far as the ld goes - your 30 boys mob has 30ld, because of mob rule; and then you're borrowing that leadership, again, via mob rule.

Played another 1000 pt game. Tried biker boss, wierdboy. 30-10-10 shootaboyz and 5 kommandoes again and also added 2*20 stormboyz with pk nobz and 3 kannonz.
Faced 4 tempestuss scion comsquads fullon plazma - they're dirt cheap - like 16 ppm or something like this, 2 commanders, 3hwt withheavy bolters (14 ppm) and 6 basilisks.
Got 1-st turn - teleported 30 boyz up the field, rushed stormboyz on one flank - they got a good run move. Killed hwt and than charged 2 basilisks. Didn't manage to kill them - 28 shootaboyz (a couple died to overwatching basilisk) and a pk nob took 5 hp off a basilisk (it has 11 hp total).Pk did nothing once again - all the damage was dealt with regular boyz. Stormboyz pulled a charge off, a couple died to overwatch and a couple to full throttle. PK finally managed to hit and dealt 2 damage and boyz dealt another couple of wounds.
I evenpiled in on another basilisks, so 4 of 6 total had to fall back, Than comsquds arrived, wiped stormboyz, killed 22 boyz together with 2 basilisks and ld checks.
I managed to kill his commander and all the scions next turn but than we had to finish the game.
It was 2-d turn and i had no way of dealing with his basilisks. PK don't work as good anti-tank anymore and i honestly don't know what we can do to deal with cheap spammable tough stuff backed by cheap spammable extremely shooty stuff other than try to kill as much and as fast as possible first couple turns and than just crawl around and score or tarpit.

8-th listbuilding just screams for spamming. Why the hell would you want a guardsman over a 12 pts heavy weapon team (that also has a lazgun) or a regular scion over a comsuad scion with 7 pt plazmaguns on 9 pt dudes with 4+ armor, deepstrike and 3+ to-hits, re-rolling 1-s to hit and to-wound. Or a tactical marine over a devastator. Now that the requirement for even min troops are gone.

Anywayz, i'm not quite sure how to deal with all that cheap turdy vehicles cause our shooting is quite bad vs that things and our mellee doesn't seem to be damaging enough - especially pk are not what they used to be. Outscoring and outlasting gets boring quickly.

fe40k wrote:
Is mobile fortress a modified to the vehicle? Yes - and as a result, it applies to the units inside.

As far as the ld goes - your 30 boys mob has 30ld, because of mob rule; and then you're borrowing that leadership, again, via mob rule.

I believe "modifier" is specific term used to refer to a + or - (EDIT: or multiplying! Can't forget that x2S) to a model characteristic (though, I'll admit the rules section on modifying characteristics is REAL blurry in my leak, so this may need to wait a few weeks!). Mobile fortress would be a special ability, not a modifier.

And for leadership.....

Unit 1 (30 orks) ----6"---> Unit 2 (1 ork) ----6"-----> Unit 3 (1 ork)

Does that mean all 3 units above have LD30?

 DaisyWondercow wrote:

And for leadership.....

Unit 1 (30 orks) ----6"---> Unit 2 (1 ork) ----6"-----> Unit 3 (1 ork)

Does that mean all 3 units above have LD30?

as it stands yes, but I expect that to be changed. That's obviously not whats intended for the rule, but the way its worded it does become that way

OK, trying to put aside my doubts and make the best of what we've got...

Which armies / units are worth trying to outshoot as orks? Obviously depends on exactly which unit we are talking about; stormboys aren't going to be outshooting anyone who has a shooting attack, mek gunz can probably handle themselves against anything except the very best. But what's the point at which you give up trying to even compete with shoota boyz or flash gitz and just charge them in instead?

Is it worth mixing fast and slow, or do we need to decide one way or the other? Previously trukks were cheap and delicate enough that you could and should have just spammed them and figured out what to do with the survivors once (if!) they reached the enemy lines. Now each trukk is basically a pocket battlewagon (complete with the price tag) and it seems like mounting boyz in them is almost too much of a luxury.

I really love my flash gitz, but it seems the only viable way to run them is in a battlewagon, which makes me sad because I can't put the models on the table (except maybe one or two in the back of the wagon). Kaptin Badrukk is annoyingly unable to buff gitz while they are in a wagon, which is a shame because I really like his model too. Is there any way to get them onto the table without them just dying far too fast? They can't even be healed by painboyz.

 davou wrote:

 DaisyWondercow wrote:

And for leadership.....

Unit 1 (30 orks) ----6"---> Unit 2 (1 ork) ----6"-----> Unit 3 (1 ork)

Does that mean all 3 units above have LD30?

as it stands yes, but I expect that to be changed. That's obviously not whats intended for the rule, but the way its worded it does become that way

I have to disagree. The rule says 'can use' rather than 'has'. It's the difference between having it on your datasheet and borrowing it for the purposes of a test. "Can use" mean that, for the purposes of taking a Ld related test, that the borrowing unit (2 in this case)can use that other Ld value (from Unit 1) rather than their own. The rule in way implies that Unit 2 possesses that other Ld value in the way necessary for them to then share it on to unit 3. There's nothing in the logic of the rule to allow that IMO.

On an unrealted note. Someone on the last page was complaining that their 225 unit of Manz used to be able to down a knight on the charge and now can't. 225 point units shouldn't kill knights on the charge. That said, a unit of 5 Manz with twin saws and a Waaagh Banner will still drop a Landraider on the charge (on average), so there's that.

 Fenris-77 wrote:


I have to disagree. The rule says 'can use' rather than 'has'. It's the difference between having it on your datasheet and borrowing it for the purposes of a test. "Can use" mean that, for the purposes of taking a Ld related test, that the borrowing unit (2 in this case)can use that other Ld value (from Unit 1) rather than their own. The rule in way implies that Unit 2 possesses that other Ld value in the way necessary for them to then share it on to unit 3. There's nothing in the logic of the rule to allow that IMO.

I can see that point, but you left out something very important.

The exact wording says "Can use as their leadership characteristic", not that they can use it for the purposes of a test. It does not say they may use another mobs leadership to make the test, it says that they may use the other mobs leadership AS THEIR leadership characteristic.

half of Mob rule means that whenever you check a models leadership, your allowed to use the leadership of any other unit within 6. Its poorly worded, and it obviously wasn't the intent, but as it stands now, leadership can be ping ponged along an ork conga line. I expect it to be errata'd VERY fast. RAW vs RAI

I am very put out by Large Blast weapons this Ed. I mean they got nerfed hard for everyone, but for us Orks its basically pointless to take them, cuz you're only gonna get one hit on average, and thats just sad.

Not real happy with Flashgitz, unless that Mobile Fortress trick works, cuz their continued lack of 4+ armor is pissing me off.

On cover. I am not happy here. My Lootas in particular arent happy, as their guns are great now, but they'll get blown apart if anything glares at them. I've got some math to show just how bad cover is for Orks:

We will have a squad of 10 Sisters Rapid Firing at a squad of Space Marines and Orks, both of which are in cover. So 20 shots that hit on a 3+, thats 13.33 shots hitting and 6.66 wounds inflicted. Now is were it gets nuts.

Orks have a 5+, which means they take 4.44 wounds (we'll call it 4) and the marines have a 2+ which means they take 1.33, so 1. Space Marines (in cover) are now 4 times more durable than Orks, and only cost twice as much. Orks may get a second attack and Mob rule, but they still shoot on 5+ and everything else is basically equal.

It gets worse when you realize that its basically impossible for Orks to actually get a cover save

In other news i've pretty well decided to get some magnets and PVC pipe and convert all my Slugga boyz into Stormboyz, cuz that looks like what its gonna take to have a chance now, cuz we are not durable enough, not by a long shot.

 davou wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:


I have to disagree. The rule says 'can use' rather than 'has'. It's the difference between having it on your datasheet and borrowing it for the purposes of a test. "Can use" mean that, for the purposes of taking a Ld related test, that the borrowing unit (2 in this case)can use that other Ld value (from Unit 1) rather than their own. The rule in way implies that Unit 2 possesses that other Ld value in the way necessary for them to then share it on to unit 3. There's nothing in the logic of the rule to allow that IMO.

I can see that point, but you left out something very important.

The exact wording says "Can use as their leadership characteristic", not that they can use it for the purposes of a test. It does not say they may use another mobs leadership to make the test, it says that they may use the other mobs leadership AS THEIR leadership characteristic.

half of Mob rule means that whenever you check a models leadership, your allowed to use the leadership of any other unit within 6. Its poorly worded, and it obviously wasn't the intent, but as it stands now, leadership can be ping ponged along an ork conga line. I expect it to be errata'd VERY fast. RAW vs RAI

Screw that, let us have our nice thing.

 Grimmor wrote:
[[snip]]

I think people poo pooing orks because OF the saves such are missing the point of orks a little. Saves are supposed to suck for orks.

Given the choice between an ork in power armor and two orks and grot, the gang of green skins synergises better with the rest of the army.

Orks are kiling it so far in 8th, I've found about 5 batreps so far, plus about 6-7 anecdotal games and orks have won a VERY LARGE majority of them

Lots of questions! OK, I will try to get them all.

@The ThievingMick

I use a mix of Kan with Rokkits (BS 4+, baby!) Dreads with Skorchas and Klaws, the Gorkanaut (who is a beast!) and Big Meks with KFFs to both protect and fix them.

Bat rep, here:




We will be playing tonight on stream, too: https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/06/06/tuesday-night-fight-orks-vs-chaos/

For Trukks, I like to take 6, but you certainly don't have to. You could run as low as 1 or 2 and have them be excellent distraction units.

Power Stabbas rule! I think they're the best weapon option for Nobz, personally in terms of price vs. power.

@Bigdark

Gorkanaut is best, IMO. Morkanaut is good because it can take a KFF, but its offense is lower.

The Stompa is totally boss. Very expensive but if you build your list around him, he's very good. We felt he was fairly priced.

Ork walkers are great, now. I really love using them. See the above for loadouts.

@gungo

I don't understand your question? A bomb squig in a fortification? Alone? Not following, sorry.

@Nazrak

NP!

@Novelist

The Nob rule is more of just a bonus not a true morale defenseon its own, use the Warboss for keeping order.

WAAAGH Banner is stupid, stupid good. When you have a mob of 30 Boyz (or two!) getting 4 attacks per model (or 5 with a Weirdboy casting Warpath) hitting on 2's? You rock things. As Fenris said, he's a solo character, he runs around only really fearing Snipers and buffing the crap out of your army.

@davou

Yes, he is a character like a Warboss. Think of him as like an Ork Lieutenant or something.

@Fenris-77

You don't pay for the Boss Nob, you buy an Ork and replace him with the Boss Nob.

@fe40k

Positive.

@Frothmog

Yeah, use both for super durable Boyz!

@Vankraken

I prefer Rokkits on Kans now, myself. Grotzookas are still good, though.

You can eat a wound with an ammor runt yes, that is one of their benefits.

@Zend

That is probably because of what the model is modeled with.

Gungo was referring to when units could man emplaced guns on fortifications and shoot it at their ballistic skill. Toss a min squad of Tankbustas with squigs (which are +2 BS) in a Firestorm Redoubt and have them shoot the guns.

Unfortunately I don't see that rule anywhere anymore.

 davou wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:
[[snip]]

I think people poo pooing orks because OF the saves such are missing the point of orks a little. Saves are supposed to suck for orks.

Given the choice between an ork in power armor and two orks and grot, the gang of green skins synergises better with the rest of the army.

Orks are kiling it so far in 8th, I've found about 5 batreps so far, plus about 6-7 anecdotal games and orks have won a VERY LARGE majority of them

My Orks always had their 4+, it was very important for me as i faced a ton of Bolters and other low AP weapons, and not crap saves are important for Lootas as well.

 Reecius wrote:

@Frothmog

Yeah, use both for super durable Boyz!

5++/6+++ doesnt sound "super durable" to me. Frankly i dont expect to actually use my Painboy at all.

Watching Frontline's Tuesday battle on twitch:

https://www.twitch.tv/frontlinegaming_tv

Reece just made a statement that has never before been uttered in English:

"The killa-kans just killed both Helldrakes."

Still think orks are bad?

keep in mind, that if you don't play your ork army exactly like Davou you are wrong and therefore a bad ork player.

 JimOnMars wrote:
Watching Frontline's Tuesday battle on twitch:

https://www.twitch.tv/frontlinegaming_tv

Reece just made a statement that has never before been uttered in English:

"The killa-kans just killed both Helldrakes."

Still think orks are bad?

Nice to see that Killa Kans work again, though it would have been hard to make them worse than they were.

For the record i ddint say Orks where bad, i said the current cover system is bad (for Orks and other 6+ savers) that the Naughts and Stompa feel overpriced, that Ork boyz feel pointless now (as i can just spam Kommandoes or Stormboyz instead) and our old Large Blast Weapons are worthless.

I acknowledge that a bunch of stuff got better, and im very happy that our Walkers are good and that Buggies are great, im just pissed that our Troops choice doesnt feel worth taking anymore and that the SAG and KillKannon are now useless.

 Grimmor wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Watching Frontline's Tuesday battle on twitch:

https://www.twitch.tv/frontlinegaming_tv

Reece just made a statement that has never before been uttered in English:

"The killa-kans just killed both Helldrakes."

Still think orks are bad?

Nice to see that Killa Kans work again, though it would have been hard to make them worse than they were.

For the record i ddint say Orks where bad, i said the current cover system is bad (for Orks and other 6+ savers) that the Naughts and Stompa feel overpriced, that Ork boyz feel pointless now (as i can just spam Kommandoes or Stormboyz instead) and our old Large Blast Weapons are worthless.

I acknowledge that a bunch of stuff got better, and im very happy that our Walkers are good and that Buggies are great, im just pissed that our Troops choice doesnt feel worth taking anymore and that the SAG and KillKannon are now useless.

Take a peak at how fast Nids got compared to us.

 JohnU wrote:
Gungo was referring to when units could man emplaced guns on fortifications and shoot it at their ballistic skill. Toss a min squad of Tankbustas with squigs (which are +2 BS) in a Firestorm Redoubt and have them shoot the guns.

Unfortunately I don't see that rule anywhere anymore.

ya it's kinda weird how it works now. It's still automated when someone is embarked But it allows the fortifications to target other units rather than the closest. I just didn't realize it sorry. I think most of the odd rules questions with orkshave been answered for me. Things like runts as ablative wounds being intentional and adding to mob rule which is allowed to be daisy chained.

I think burnas need a small boost compared to kommandos. Burnas should ignore cover modifiers.
I think the shokk atk gun and big Mek on foot needs an ammo runt. It's just a bit expensive for the low reliability.
I think badrukk is ok (only reason he won't be used as often is his buff doesn't work in transports) but I find his flashgat buff baffling as it doesn't stack w an ammo runt. Maybe instead of hit rolls of 1 it should be wound rolls of 1?

The above 3 things are the only things in the codex I think fall behind comparatively(not counting flyers which I've nEver used often) Not that they won't be used just that they are oddly better options.

SemperMortis wrote:


Take a peak at how fast Nids got compared to us.

I've heard they are really fast. Also Genestealers now have a 5++ and im rather happy about that.

SemperMortis wrote:


keep in mind, that if you don't play your ork army exactly like Davou you are wrong and therefore a bad ork player.

Now, by like me.... do you mean not loosing? Because you're more than welcome to lose with your orks if you want, but it seems like that's not a requirement anymore

Added the latest FLG batrep to the list! Orks tabled CSM, despite being seized on. Boy they sure do suck

@Grimnor

Well, you are free to see the glass half empty if you like, but I can say from playing MANY games of them in 8th against nearly every other army in the game that they are outstanding. I feel they are one of the best armies in the game right now.

And you don't think a 5++ followed by a 6+ is very durable? How's that? That is a roughly 45% reduction in damage taken, lol. It is INCREDIBLY good for a horde army, like, almost too good.

Eh, but whatever. I know adjusting to a new edition can be challenging but I am sure in time and playing many of you that are currently apprehensive will come around.

Da Boyz are back!

Good luck to my fellow Ork players.

tonights game was great man, thanks!

Glad you enjoyed it =)

I'm sure that dreads work fine at destroying vehicles. But klaws on nobz kinda don't any more. Maybe it's just me. But my nobz only managed to deal 2 hp of damage with klaws across the whole game. While regular shootaboyz and stormboyz were chipping wounds off those basilisks. Slowly but steadilly. Well, on the other hand we don't get to pay for nobz any more. But i'm thinking we need to rellly concentrate our power to take down those vehicles. Infantry's fine at killing other infantry in mellee - with our s4 we're piling wounds even if getting charged (if we survive through it).

Another lesson learnt from the previous game: even if you wana rush forward to take out those vehicles...don't if it takes you out of boss's range. You won't kill a vehicle in one go with something like boyz or stormboyz and than they'll fall back and the rest of the list will shot you to bits and morale will finish you off. I lost 2 squads cause of it.

I'm getting unhappy with the power klaws but wat other options do we have? Maybe it's time to take Ghaz off the shelf? He costs like 1.5 deff dreads and kills 2 times more + buffs nearby stuff. Yeah, i'll try a wagon with ghaz next game!

Btw, for those who claim orks are slow. Stormboyz and bikers are very fast. Teleporting boyz are very fast. Trukks and wagons are as fast as stormboyz basically. We ain't as quick as nids with some of their combos but we're fast enough to be threatening.

Can I mix clans in the same detachment?

 doktor_g wrote:
Can I mix clans in the same detachment?

Yes, but you shouldn't unless playing both Zagstruk and Snikrot.

Outside of those two Characters, clans have no effect on your army whatsoever, as long as everybody has the same clan as your warboss, nobz and painboyz.

 Reecius wrote:
Glad you enjoyed it =)

Yea, but I felt sorry for the poor helldrakes....I mean heckdrakes.

@koooaei: Yeah, I'm having the same thoughts. Thanks for the batrep though.

I don't know what Orks should take against armor - it doesn't seem that anything is good enough anymore; Tankbustas are probably the best bet, but a 10 unit of them (+addons/squiqs) and a trukk are really pricey for one squad - especially when that squad on average will get maybe 3-4 wounds (which is 9-12 damage, not too bad); but that's if the opponents saves rolls aren't hot.

Imperial Guard will be our worst nightmare for sure - Scions are fantastically priced (even without Plasma guns factored in), are BS3+, and ignore Orks armor save (outside of KFF...); a squad of 10 of them dropping in with a Prime is going to eat about 15 Orks in a single go at least - but probably more because 40 shots is a ton from Rapid Fire 2 guns.

[For what it's worth, Scions can only be under the effects of one order per turn - don't let people get a million orders/buffs to a single squad, that's not how orders work this edition.]

Nevermind the fact that Heavy Weapons Teams are cheap as chips, and can be taken/spammed by the Imperium; and then there's assassins/etc as backup. Can't even rely on cover to help mitigate.

We'll have to wait and see how the battlereports and actual gameplay turns out - but I'm struggling to see how we'll deal with the massive spam this edition. We don't get cover anymore, KFF is super small for infantry squads, our anti-tank seems trash and unreliable (which will be made worse by more transport spam+more wounds on vehicles), all these new Imperium toys (Scions/Taurox Prime), and we basically don't have an armor save from any anti-infantry gun if it has even -1AP.

Perhaps the codex will give us additional options.

Alternatively, perhaps we go super transport heavy, hoping to deploy all our units first/seize the initiative; and then drop Kommandos/Weirdboy mobs on the lines and hope we can stay in melee/win it then and there.

fe40k wrote:
@koooaei:

Imperial Guard will be our worst nightmare for sure - Scions are fantastically priced (even without Plasma guns factored in), are BS3+, and ignore Orks armor save (outside of KFF...); a squad of 10 of them dropping in with a Prime is going to eat about 15 Orks in a single go at least - but probably more because 40 shots is a ton from Rapid Fire 2 guns.

Scions can't double tap when dropping in. Their guns have 18 inch range and they have to drop in more than 9 inches from enemies.

@fe40k: Keep in mind that Scions only have 18" range on their basic rifles, and that they have to deploy MORE than 9" away when dropping in, so they will never be within rapid fire range the turn they deep strike. So even with FRFSRF orders, a single squad will only get 20 shots.

I think a lot of less than careful players will see 9" in the deep strike rules and think that means they can rapid fire the turn they arrive, so don't be shy to point out this is not the case.
Ninja'd by Gargantuan