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If we’re assuming that a natural 1 on the re-roll is instant death on the IR (and if not, then it’s risk is meaningless), then what odds is it actually worth? So, it’s a 3++, that’s a 1/3 chance of failing a save. But then taking your reroll carries a 1/6 chance of dying? That’s not good odds, on a model with many wounds remaining. If it’s a high damage attack, like a Knight in melee or some LOW’s preposterous cannon, fine, but against like Bolter fire, it’s, well terrible.

Do we know enough to start working out how lists might look? We’re going to want Battalions for those DS CPs, no question about that. Nurgle are the outstanding choice for this, given their HQ and Troops diversity.

The other deities only have one Troops, which presents a choice: double down on the same unit, which could lead to bad stone-paper-scissors matchups, or forego the Locus on a couple of HQs.

We’re probably going to consume quite a lot of CP on deep strikes, which suggests that where TOs are not restricting the number of detachments, the non-Troops stuff wants to be arranged in Vanguards, etc. That again raises questions of polytheist or monolatrist.

Pure Tzeentch Vanguards look really good. Flamers, EFs, and disc/chariot Heralds have brilliant synergy. One of those rare cases where a Detachment presents itself as a self-sufficient fighting force.

Nurgle Outriders might be ok. Many of us will have a load of Plague Drones to hand because if you wanted to build a Battalion, they were essentially Start Collecting freebies. Add a Furies tax and you’ve got an alright HQ slot for a third Herald or a GUO. Alternatively, Forge World Plague Toads.

Khorne armies are probably going to want an Outriders for the DTW coverage. Honestly, I rate Flesh Hounds pretty well. Fifteen S5 AP-1 attacks seems to worry opponents.

I’ve got a fair bit of Slaanesh. Crossing my fingers for my Herald on Steed. A Hellflayer and Seekers looks like a pretty good base for Outriders.

Furies and Sould Grinders will give us more diverse mono Outriders and Spearheads. Even more so with the FW gribblies.

There’s things to be said for mixed detachments, though. What Loci can we live without, when we want a soup Detachment? Do DPs even get Loci? If we can’t live without maximum Loci (or CBA with the annoying bookkeeping of remembering which Herald is the one without what will be a standard thing), there’s always Be’lakor.

Has to be said, if we’re not making a Detachment mono, then it looks like there’s no opportunity cost on adding a strong CHAOS unit from another list. I’ll certainly be tempted to do a few soup detachments, with a Contemptor or Dreadclaw and a Word Bearers HQ - who cares neither for a Locus he can’t have not a Legion trait that won’t benefit him - as I main a CHAOS grand alliance.

Does the loci affect non-daemon codex daemons? For example, the loci for nurgle looks potent on a foetid bloat drone with plaguespewers. Assuming I have a detachment of nurgle daemons and have a DG detach, I should be good?

orkswubwub wrote:
Does the loci affect non-daemon codex daemons? For example, the loci for nurgle looks potent on a foetid bloat drone with plaguespewers. Assuming I have a detachment of nurgle daemons and have a DG detach, I should be good?

From what I’ve read I’m 99% certain it’s a ‘yes’

Well written, Lindsay.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Let's break down what makes you think a LoC is amazing. Who cares if it had a 3++? It only does 5 attacks in melee, and only has a D3 smite. Absolutely magical Christmas land for a LoC, it kills a grand total of 11 models.

Are you trying to tank wounds? Why not just spend less points on 50 bodies with horrors?

He can deep strike, but for what purpose? Again, if the claim is they're amazing, or even good, we need to justify that claim. I cannot find the reasoning.

I'l rephrase my analysis from the daemons thread for this thread and to answer this a little more clearly:

The LoC stands out to me as the only tzeentch caster with the durability to get in the thick of the enemy army and remain a threat and force positioning that is advantageous to you via Infernal Gate and Treason of Tzeentch. even chariot heralds and standard DPs are quite likely to crumble because of the lower toughness and wound count, while the IR/WLT lord of change can take a direct shot from a scorpion twin pulsar and shrug it off (both statistically and in practical experience). While it's true he won't win any close combat awards, with a sword he will can-opener vehicles and larger things pretty handily.

The disruption potential provided is high enough that I believe he warrants inclusion based on that alone.

orkswubwub wrote:
Do nurgle herald's still exist? Looking at what is out for the codex so far there are no point values and it is not listed in the codex. It is only in the index. Can I still use a herald as part of a legal Chaos Daemon detachment (with access to strats, relics, etc.)? It can only access spells in the index though?

Yeah, I'm planning on taking daemons to a tournament. 1 day after they've been released(aka not enough time to ship). Can I have a link too :p

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Let's break down what makes you think a LoC is amazing. Who cares if it had a 3++? It only does 5 attacks in melee, and only has a D3 smite. Absolutely magical Christmas land for a LoC, it kills a grand total of 11 models.

Are you trying to tank wounds? Why not just spend less points on 50 bodies with horrors?

He can deep strike, but for what purpose? Again, if the claim is they're amazing, or even good, we need to justify that claim. I cannot find the reasoning.

durability wise the LoC is quite durable with out set up unlike lets say magnus who needs a psykic phase, and needs to not be denied to get pretty tough. The LoC can cast multiple spells and some of which are pretty good. the new infernal gate spell can do some pretty serious damage bring that model kill count up pretty quick.

An LoC with robe alone is more durable than 50 horrors, and with the warlord trait is more durable against pretty much everything x.x. Plus the way i list build i tend to go for mono durability to take advantage of making a chunk of my opponents weapons less useful.


If we compare using an LoC to a Magnus. Magnus is gonna bring warp time and weave of fate so they can keep themselves safe, and get into mlee and use that wonderful melee attack he's got. He's also gonna cast gaze because his smite is pretty dope. So using your damage out put measurement he's putting out either 13-19 model kills <.<.

vs the LoC

Who is gonna bring the relic and warlord traits as his defense stats. Then maybe bring infernal gateway and smite doing something like a minimum of 6 wound to 12 (assuming you can't get a target that lets you connect your inerfnal gate to hit multiple targets.). Getting +5 if you add in his melee attacks, but being realistic he wont be in melee turn 1 more often than not when we compare him to magnus.I think he fairs alright.

Where i kind of see the LoC over magnus is just how the game works out. I just don't see magnus making his points turn 1 in any of the games i've played against him with my eldar. Even when magnus goes first and slam into a hemlock or or my shining spears. he kills lots of stuff that cost about half as much as he does... and then he get blown off the table as he puts himself in quit the compromising position getting into melee. If he doesn't make melee turn 1 via felled powers, or by going second he jsut dies turn one to units like my shining spears that can kill him for half his cost. . I like the LoC becuase i'm not leaning so hard on the powers, and he is abit better costed for chilling out at arms length spitting spells.

In ranking them i'd still rank it GUO>LoC>BT>Slanneshthing

 lindsay40k wrote:
If we’re assuming that a natural 1 on the re-roll is instant death on the IR (and if not, then it’s risk is meaningless), then what odds is it actually worth? So, it’s a 3++, that’s a 1/3 chance of failing a save. But then taking your reroll carries a 1/6 chance of dying? That’s not good odds, on a model with many wounds remaining. If it’s a high damage attack, like a Knight in melee or some LOW’s preposterous cannon, fine, but against like Bolter fire, it’s, well terrible.

Do we know enough to start working out how lists might look? We’re going to want Battalions for those DS CPs, no question about that. Nurgle are the outstanding choice for this, given their HQ and Troops diversity.

The other deities only have one Troops, which presents a choice: double down on the same unit, which could lead to bad stone-paper-scissors matchups, or forego the Locus on a couple of HQs.

We’re probably going to consume quite a lot of CP on deep strikes, which suggests that where TOs are not restricting the number of detachments, the non-Troops stuff wants to be arranged in Vanguards, etc. That again raises questions of polytheist or monolatrist.

Pure Tzeentch Vanguards look really good. Flamers, EFs, and disc/chariot Heralds have brilliant synergy. One of those rare cases where a Detachment presents itself as a self-sufficient fighting force.

Nurgle Outriders might be ok. Many of us will have a load of Plague Drones to hand because if you wanted to build a Battalion, they were essentially Start Collecting freebies. Add a Furies tax and you’ve got an alright HQ slot for a third Herald or a GUO. Alternatively, Forge World Plague Toads.

Khorne armies are probably going to want an Outriders for the DTW coverage. Honestly, I rate Flesh Hounds pretty well. Fifteen S5 AP-1 attacks seems to worry opponents.

I’ve got a fair bit of Slaanesh. Crossing my fingers for my Herald on Steed. A Hellflayer and Seekers looks like a pretty good base for Outriders.

Furies and Sould Grinders will give us more diverse mono Outriders and Spearheads. Even more so with the FW gribblies.

There’s things to be said for mixed detachments, though. What Loci can we live without, when we want a soup Detachment? Do DPs even get Loci? If we can’t live without maximum Loci (or CBA with the annoying bookkeeping of remembering which Herald is the one without what will be a standard thing), there’s always Be’lakor.

Has to be said, if we’re not making a Detachment mono, then it looks like there’s no opportunity cost on adding a strong CHAOS unit from another list. I’ll certainly be tempted to do a few soup detachments, with a Contemptor or Dreadclaw and a Word Bearers HQ - who cares neither for a Locus he can’t have not a Legion trait that won’t benefit him - as I main a CHAOS grand alliance.

I feel like you can pretty reliably go for 3 battalions.

Tzneetch still has access to brimstone squads of 10 are still a thing from what i've heard/read thus far. So it wouldnt be tough to pull that off. ALso horrors aren't too bad as anti chaffe shooting and a squad of 30+ herald and +1 to wound makes a great potential drop squad that can clear out infantry squads quickly. Some that is still prevalent in the current meta.

Think khorne will also drift toward battalions as they'll already have thier Bloodletter bomb which basicly pays for itself if you bring the battalion giving you all 3 command points you need to pull off one. (though you can do more than one as the skill is a banner skill, and al lthe banner stratagem are done before the start of the game).

As for who doesn't need loci??? i'd say khorne and nurgle don't really NEEED thiers. if your doing a mixed daemons force nurgle's m,ulti damageo n 6's is rather in consistent if you don't build around it very heavily, and even then the thing that sets it off is a power, and as such only one unit will go to ham on the whole deal. Plus nurgle still lacks in delivery so what ever is gonna charge, your oppont is gonna see lumber into combat a turn ahead of time if you dont get luck. not to mention there are better anti multi would options availible between tzneetch and khorne.Even tzneetch's isn't all that amazing. Do you really wanna sit there fighting?? If your in that situations your already pretty unhappy, a chance to maybe cause them miss more isn't all that big.

From there we also need to consider the disconnect is stratagies. I think Tzneetch has a lot of options for putting out turn 1 affect from horror drops to flamer drops. Either of which can be buffed with +1 to wound. While Khorne has bllod letter bombs. Both of these can do some strong turn 1 effect stuff, and start off strong. Which makes nurgle kind of like a back up plan in Tzneetch khorne list??? all your nurgle stuff is gonna be coming in like hot snot <.< which is pretty slow, getting charges off turn 2 or 3 depending on your deep strike opportunities, deployment, and your opponent.

So i wonder if it might not be worth while considering just going Tzneetch/Khorne for an alpha strike sort of force or mono nurgle for a beta strike type force and trying to stack al lthe relics and spell to make either one of those work better?? I feel doing a little of each might water down your list?? And this is coming from some one who really wants to run Tzneetch/Khorne/Nurgle. I just don't see how nurgle works with Tzneetch and Khorne.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WindstormSCR wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Let's break down what makes you think a LoC is amazing. Who cares if it had a 3++? It only does 5 attacks in melee, and only has a D3 smite. Absolutely magical Christmas land for a LoC, it kills a grand total of 11 models.

Are you trying to tank wounds? Why not just spend less points on 50 bodies with horrors?

He can deep strike, but for what purpose? Again, if the claim is they're amazing, or even good, we need to justify that claim. I cannot find the reasoning.

I'l rephrase my analysis from the daemons thread for this thread and to answer this a little more clearly:

The LoC stands out to me as the only tzeentch caster with the durability to get in the thick of the enemy army and remain a threat and force positioning that is advantageous to you via Infernal Gate and Treason of Tzeentch. even chariot heralds and standard DPs are quite likely to crumble because of the lower toughness and wound count, while the IR/WLT lord of change can take a direct shot from a scorpion twin pulsar and shrug it off (both statistically and in practical experience). While it's true he won't win any close combat awards, with a sword he will can-opener vehicles and larger things pretty handily.

The disruption potential provided is high enough that I believe he warrants inclusion based on that alone.

I agree a little bit here. I don't really think you'd be charging too much with chariots of disc heralds. You'll just be paying more to have the mobility you need to support flamers/Horrors up the board. That said the LoC spell wise is just alot more consistant, and i think he can put out enough damage, and is durable enough to be worth having around.

Plus LoC is 95 pts cheaper than Magnus

 lindsay40k wrote:
If we’re assuming that a natural 1 on the re-roll is instant death on the IR (and if not, then it’s risk is meaningless), then what odds is it actually worth? So, it’s a 3++, that’s a 1/3 chance of failing a save. But then taking your reroll carries a 1/6 chance of dying? That’s not good odds, on a model with many wounds remaining. If it’s a high damage attack, like a Knight in melee or some LOW’s preposterous cannon, fine, but against like Bolter fire, it’s, well terrible.

The faction focus from GW talks about the result of the reroll. Assuming Ephemeral Form stays the same you won't be able to trigger the instant death as a roll of 1 becomes a result of 2.

Assuming ID on a natural 1, the way I see the reroll being used is if it would likely result in you losing your last wound - ie: you are dead if you don't reroll, so you have nothing to lose.

 akwing00 wrote:
Was watching the miniwargaming review for the codex. The reviewer mentioned that for the icon to be upgraded to a banner of blood it had to be on the battlefield at the start of the game so essentially saying you couldn't give the 3d6 charge to a unit that was placed into deepstrike reserve with the other strategum.

Can anyone confirm this? I'm not sure if that's how it works, but I've only been able to hear the rules read as opposed to seeing them on the page myself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I know Denizens of the Warp Stratagem is used during "deployment", where you place models in the warp instead of the on the battlefield.

Banner of blood states use this stratagem before the battle choose one of your khorne models with a demonic icon...

guess my question is can you select a unit that isn't on the battlefield?

I listened to the same review, and actually had to pause and rewind when he said this. Based on his (and others') reading of the stratagem, you can still give the banner to deep striking units because you upgrade the banner before the battle, not during deployment. Nothing in the stratagem says that the unit must be on the battlefield, only that it must include an icon. What he was referring to was his own idea that you could use the summoning stratagem to summon a large unit of Khorne Daemons, then use the icon stratagem as if it were Descent of Angels and charge 3D6 with that new unit, which he is right, you cannot do.

Raulengrin wrote:

 akwing00 wrote:
Was watching the miniwargaming review for the codex. The reviewer mentioned that for the icon to be upgraded to a banner of blood it had to be on the battlefield at the start of the game so essentially saying you couldn't give the 3d6 charge to a unit that was placed into deepstrike reserve with the other strategum.

Can anyone confirm this? I'm not sure if that's how it works, but I've only been able to hear the rules read as opposed to seeing them on the page myself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I know Denizens of the Warp Stratagem is used during "deployment", where you place models in the warp instead of the on the battlefield.

Banner of blood states use this stratagem before the battle choose one of your khorne models with a demonic icon...

guess my question is can you select a unit that isn't on the battlefield?

I listened to the same review, and actually had to pause and rewind when he said this. Based on his (and others') reading of the stratagem, you can still give the banner to deep striking units because you upgrade the banner before the battle, not during deployment. Nothing in the stratagem says that the unit must be on the battlefield, only that it must include an icon. What he was referring to was his own idea that you could use the summoning stratagem to summon a large unit of Khorne Daemons, then use the icon stratagem as if it were Descent of Angels and charge 3D6 with that new unit, which he is right, you cannot do.

the banner command point is used before the battle, and doesn't specify a location for the unit in question. As such you can deep strike and do the 3d6 charge. it's pretty great, but if it catches on you best beleive enemy armies will be deploying thier own scouts to counter this pretty hard in short order.

Edit: just watched the miniwarhaming though . He makes a weird logical leap that just isn't.

edit2: Also on the LoC thing you can have the LoC cast infernal gate/smite/bolt of change on in 1 turn with 1 CP. a turn. So he's got some rather impressive mortal wound generation off one model. Mind you that made bolt of change now go off on an 8 instead of 9, and bolt of change as always lets you pick your target so it's abit better than your normal smite spam as you can reach out and hit what you want.

Thanks for clarifying that!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How viable do you guys think brigade detachments are, when just looking at mono-god lists?

but how you can make any kind of speculation without the codex?

Hmmm... are our Pink Horror Squads comparable at all to Devourer Gants?

Theyre cheaper i guess. Same number of shots at large numbers. And dont need tunnels taxes. More durable with a 4++ too.

But.... no access to a shoot twice stratagem.

mmimzie wrote:


the banner command point is used before the battle, and doesn't specify a location for the unit in question. As such you can deep strike and do the 3d6 charge. it's pretty great, but if it catches on you best beleive enemy armies will be deploying thier own scouts to counter this pretty hard in short order

I'm pretty sure most players were already very concerned with bubble wrap/alpha strike mitigation long before this. Turn 1 charges have always been a possibility, and now they're going to be considered a regularity between this codex and Tyranids before it.

To that end, I'm wondering if a good strategy would be to build a list around around a turn one drop designed for chaff clearing (horror bomb/flamers/???) followed by a turn 2 drop of nasty assault units (bloodletters/Skarbrand/etc). Then if you can pull off a meaningful turn 1 charge it's icing on the cake, but you're not hosed and left out in the wind if you're opponent does happen to have significant and well deployed bubble wrap.

Two waves of drops does seem ideal, although you'd have to ration CP .
Using csm units with inherent deep strike would help.

 Lou_Cypher wrote:
Hmmm... are our Pink Horror Squads comparable at all to Devourer Gants?

Theyre cheaper i guess. Same number of shots at large numbers. And dont need tunnels taxes. More durable with a 4++ too.

But.... no access to a shoot twice stratagem.

I'd say it's comparable. They really need a Herald for the strength buff and flickering flames for the +1 to wound though (flickering flames being arguably the more important aspect).
It's probably not quite as lethal against certain targets, but as you pointed out they're much harder to shift after the drop.

The horrors will be very good against T7. You can wound them on 4+.

Nurgle does have turn 1 effect!! And it's not took bad, and could help clear chaffe for Blood letter charges in later turns. While also taking up decent table space to keep a place to deep strike.

Nurglings can get buffed pretty decently and infiltrate really close up. The slippery bile piper gives nurglings an additional attack, while the Herald gives them +1 str (basicly +1 to would against everything). From there a nurgle unit can get blessing to get another +1 to wound, and another caster can reduce a targets toughness by one (again with such low base are every point moved is basicly +1). Suddenly your wounding guard on 2s and marines on 3s woth 5 attacks a base refilling 1s, from a unit that started its turn potentially 9" away from the enemy deployment... fun!!

Obviously your opponent geting turn 1 on you could suck?? They do atleast really love a great unclean one with a doom bell bring back those taste 4 wound bases, and 2 squads of 9 won't break the bank, and can be daise chained back to into the aura of your GUO and bile piper to counter enemy D'S, and get buffs.
Realisticly you only need about 2-4 bases to chain back to reach the aura abilities as well.

How powerful. Hmm not sure the nurglings seem abit scary to put that far up, but they are surprisingly durable despite being splatable. Even getting hit with 2 damage weapons most of those are looking to get more than half of 18 pts worth of model from thier shooting.

Just a neat thing.

On the tzneetch front I feel like if restrict most of that to summoning?? Horrors and exalted flamers are very target specific, but are honestly easy enough to summon in when you need them, and in a tournament setting would give a list some much desired flexibility. None of the other chaos gods have stuff that I think warrents summoning???

hmm any good articles or written reviews already out there? Not a fan of video reviews (cant watch them at work and want to start building some lists in my head)^^

I second lago40k's question. We need written reviews!

 mrhappyface wrote:
Oh my lord, just read about the 2CP stratagem that lets a Daemon unit killed by a Grey Knight unit return into play at full wounds 9" from an enemy unit. I need to find a GK player to play against!

So would this let you bring back Magnus or Mortarion? Seems like it would lead to an easy win vs Grey Knights if thats the case. Is it limited to infantry maybe?

Got a LoC waiting to be assembled, but not sure if Kairos or LoC is the optimal choice of the two. Any tips?

Slagmar wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Oh my lord, just read about the 2CP stratagem that lets a Daemon unit killed by a Grey Knight unit return into play at full wounds 9" from an enemy unit. I need to find a GK player to play against!

So would this let you bring back Magnus or Mortarion? Seems like it would lead to an easy win vs Grey Knights if thats the case. Is it limited to infantry maybe?

Demonic Incursion: For 2CP, use this Stratagem when one of your Daemon units is destroyed by a Grey Knights unit, the destroyed unit is returned to your army at full strength and set up anywhere on the battlefield during your next Movement phase and is at least 9″ away from enemy models. This does not cost you any reinforcement points during a Matched Play game.

Much like the deep strike stratagem, there seem to be no restrictions. I'm not sure whether it's hilarious that Daemons will be able to hammer Grey Knights with re-appearing units or if it's sad that the one army Grey Knights are supposed to be good against will be able to do terrible things to them.

As a Chaos player, I'm leaning towards hilarious.

 knas wrote:
Got a LoC waiting to be assembled, but not sure if Kairos or LoC is the optimal choice of the two. Any tips?

Puuhhh... Kairos has the advantage of the extra D3 command points and is actually a much better psyker both offensively and defensively. The only thing really going for the vanilla LoC is a big one: Due to artefact and WL trait he can have a 3++ and -1 to Damage from enemy weapons. So a LoC is really hard to kill with these.

I think there are two main circumstances when you really want to go for one of the two.
1.) Go for Kairos, if you have a lot of Deep Striking stuff via the new Stratagem, since he grants the +D3 CP.
2.) Go for the LoC, if you use very few monsters in the army. In this case the LoC will be a good bullet magnet.

Also, what is the point of this warlord trait?

Khorne – Add +1 to your Warlord’s Attack characteristic if there are more enemy models than friendly models within 8″.

There is already a warlord trait that gives +1A no matter what, why would you take this new one?

Grey Knights: the single faction most capable of banishing a Daemon for a hundred years

Grey Knights: the single faction against which the same Daemon can jump back in over and over and over

I can see what they were doing with this, recreating the (brilliant) 3ed rule enabling Daemons to recycle units against GK, balancing the GK bonuses against Daemons and creating a narrative hook that the GK are deployed because the incursion is out of control, but this seems to be a very odd way of doing it. Rather than a numberless wave after wave of Daemons, it’s going to mean that Primarchs and the huge FW ones are going to laugh and sing That’s Not My Name as Draigo frantically reads from the tome of banishing

Grey Knights have all the tools needed to kill huge swaths of deamons in no time flat. I think it's fair you can bring back some of them seeing as more than one unit will most likely be destroyed a turn.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Grey Knights have all the tools needed to kill huge swaths of deamons in no time flat. I think it's fair you can bring back some of them seeing as more than one unit will most likely be destroyed a turn.

Well, they are gonna get kicked in the nads if the smite rule becomes a perma thing.

That stratagem alone makes Grey Knights useless agaisn't Daemons... "oh you killed my BT? Np bro! I can resurrect him 4 more times!"