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It's £30 for 7, which isn't the max squad. £10 and you can get the simple-build ones to round it up to 10.

I know 7 is the magic number for Nurgle, but blimey, no need to force the boxed set around it.

 Galas wrote:
Witch Elves are alongside Greatswords the most insanely priced product of all of the Fantasy range. Truly a jewel of the Kirby era. A shame because both of them are very nice models, but when I can have 40 Perry Brothers foot knights for less price than 10 Greatswords....

You are quite correct that it's a Kirby jewel.

My biggest issue is that they did nothing to rectify this problem. They won't lower price of the individual box, but the only bundle to get Witch Elves in was the recent one that puts them with a Cauldron of Blood for not much of a discount. Sure, the thought is appreciated, but the issue is that you need several boxes of Witch Elves to build one or two suitably big units. But how many Cauldrons could you possibly need?

Whereas, to go back to Mechanicus, a start collecting box gets you a lot further because the rules encourage you to have more than one Onager, so buying multiples is not a problem to get a discount on your Troops and Heavy Support (plus the umpteenth extra Dominus).

Do we actually have the 7 model box confirmed yet?

I've seen prices but nothing saying exactly how many are in it.

No confirmation yet. Just speculation based on WD pictures.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Just baffles me that the Mechanicus line, ever before unification, was so schizophrenically priced.

This is probably the biggest complaint I have with them in general.
Your statement here encompasses it full-stop.
The pricing is very much on the arbitrary side.
I suppose that is what happens when actual product physical cost is measured in cents or a couple dollars at most (yes I know there is the great big GW corporate overhead to include).
What really underscores this is unfortunately when they give a great "deal" on a bundle, it really highlights the huge markup of the smaller packs.

Normally I'm 'immune' to pricing. But when it feels arbitrary within the one army range, I dunno, it just rankles me.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It's £30 for 7, which isn't the max squad. £10 and you can get the simple-build ones to round it up to 10.

I know 7 is the magic number for Nurgle, but blimey, no need to force the boxed set around it.

I'm expecting that to not be the case and the box to be 10 Plague Marines with options for a Sargeant and a Icon Bearer. If thats isn't the case... I don't think I'll start my plans to a DG army.

I've got WD.

That very much seems to be the case. Although it doesn't state it was such, it does show only 7 models when talking about the Plaguebearers.

That would be the worst dick-move nu-GW had made, to be honest, and I'm been pretty clear that with their pluses and minus GW has keep me happy this past year.
And I expect to bite them in the ass, with no one buying that kit, so they feel forced to do what they did with Stormcast and re-box the unit to do them a proper 10-man box.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Normally I'm 'immune' to pricing. But when it feels arbitrary within the one army range, I dunno, it just rankles me.

I hear you there. It's especially bad for me, though, since I'm sensitive to pricing but immune to rules. I don't care how hot the newest sweetness is on the tabletop, the prices are too damn high.

 Geifer wrote:
This whole discussion, on my part anyway, started with me taking exception to the idea that a happy majority can invalidate the opinion of a displeased minority.

Well, what would their opinion be valid for? Getting a hug from a sympathetic stranger on the internet?

There will always be a displeased minority in any customer base. They aren't even the real problem. The real problem is when you have a growing group of ex-customers who just don't care nor think about you any more. That's the group GW is actively trying to get back. The actively displeased? They know that anything they do to please them will just cause other people on the internet to take their place because they don't like how the problem was solved. That's the nature of change in a business where your customers are geeky people who think they always know better. The rules and models should have a broad appeal as possible and not all individual concerns are worth the money and time needed to fix them.

If we're going to be able to say anything at all whether GW has actually changed or if it's just an illusion, we can't be beholden to the gripes of every customer. Under Kirby GW alienated a lot of people. Lots are coming back. The topic of this thread is whether or not GW has actually changed or if it's a trick. If you make the criteria for actual change that everyone's pet issue must be addressed, their change can never be real. The opinions of the "displeased minority" are likely valid, but definitely meaningless to the larger question.

Merriam-Webster's Advanced Learner's English Dictionary:

fleece... informal:
to deceive and take money from (someone)

See? I can quote a dictionary, too.

Just because you choose the meaning that require criminal intent doesn't mean it's the only meaning of the word.

I didn't quote the one I did to emphasize the criminal nature of "defraud" but the deceptive nature. So you can plug your definition into my post and change all instances of "defraud" to "deceive" and nothing changes. Is there anything deceptive about how GW marketed the collectors box of plague marines that I quoted in spoiler tags above? No, there is not.

There is no reason to even discuss if GW is a legitimate business. They are. I'm talking about what they do within the boundaries of the law.

Sorry for my unclear communication. I did not intend to address that whatsoever. My point is that they are being straight up in their offerings, even of their super high priced collectors items. There is no deception.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
@Geif

I think you're really reaching to paint Games Workshop in a bad light. Releasing discounted starter army boxes is fleecing? What? Almost every miniature company I know does this. Warlord Games, Privateer Press, Corvus Belli and Wryd to name a few. Yes, Games Workshop's products are more expensive than the discounted boxes. That's why they call them "discounted".

And the Plague Bretheren are entirely optional and aren't actually that expensive for a collector's item.

The funny thing is that I'm not even trying to present GW in a bad light. Would it surprise you to learn that I am reasonably happy with their business conduct?

Then there may be a communication failure on your end. You presented GW's reduced price bundles as the first part of some nefarious plan to fleece the customers.

@Geif

I understand playing Devil's Advocate but I'm attacking the argument as is. As I believe it's flawed.

Pseudomonas wrote:

What has been bothering me though is their new rules, basically the lack of customisation and opportunities for conversions. A Death Guard lord has precisely 2 equipment options and both of them are scythes. This goes entirely against the ethos of 40k and I can see no valid reason for it (no model=no rules is not a valid reason).

Flip the page. . . seriously mate, just do it. . . you're referencing a very specific unit, the Lord of Contagion, which is on the same page as the named guy of the same type (they basically allow you to make a mini-Typhus, should you desire). . .

The Chaos Lord, and Terminator Lord with all their gubbins are still fully available.

Smoke and mirrors, or has gw really learned their lesson?

I'd say both. The metrics i follow that are of interest to me (rules balance and prices) haven't changed. The rules are all over the place, and the prices go up with every new release. I can deal with one of the two being off, but not both at the same time.

But yeah, i think they've learned their lesson. Perception is reality. A good salesman can sell ice-makers to Eskimos. They've somehow (and i'm genuinely mystified how they did this) rebranded themselves as nu and improved, and people have accepted that. Sales are up! But they're still doing the same old same old.

 Chamberlain wrote:
I've noticed that friends with small children actually have more hobbying time than many of those without. The child might go to bed at 7pm or whatever, but you're going to be home in the evening while they are sleeping. Put some laundry in the machine, find a podcast or an audio book and start painting.

What got me back into buying GW's stuff was their rules that work well with smaller forces. AoS Skirmish into Path to Glory into 1000 point games is an awesome thing to do.

That must make for a happy couple.

Trust me, you have infinitely more hobbying time when you're single, and generally having kids means you're not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Shadespire claims not to be that. Let's see how that pans out? It's clearly them going after the X-Wing-a-like market. Low model count, fast play, customisable, 'its-what-you-do-with-it-that-counts' gaming

I was told it's 'taste' that counts. or size ... I don't remember.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The prices are a bit odd at the moment.

I can't praise the Start Collecting sets and similar bundles enough. They're not simply filled with waff, and off a tangible discount. Hell, the Seraphon one is basically the price of the Carnosaur, with free stuff bunged in.

Then they do Deathguard Plaguemarines. £30 for 7. That's.....that's a bit rich for me, especially when unit upgrades are churned out at £15 a pop.

Just like the Mortarion vs Magnus case, you have to take into account the expected sales volume, which is vastly higher on Magnus / T.sons vs Mortaion / DeathGuard - maybe .

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

The Chaos Lord, and Terminator Lord with all their gubbins are still fully available.

Who isn't Death Guard as he lacks almost all the DG rules. I don't want a random Chaos Lord, I want a Death Guard lord. It would have been trivially easy to give the Lord of Contagion (and all the other DG characters) equipment options yet GW chose not to for reasons I simply cannot understand.

The whole Death Guard release is just baffling. You've got a whole range of excellent looking models that have next to no options, remove options they could have previously, and are all mostly mono-pose, yet all cost the equivalent units in the Tzeentch release. Why do the 3 mono-pose Deathshroud Terminators cost as much as the massively customisable Exalted Sorcerers? Why are the Death Guard Terminators so expensive when they have so few options/poses? And if the Plague Marine box really is 7 models, why does it cost as much as 10-man squads with a wealth of poses and options?

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
The Chaos Lord, and Terminator Lord with all their gubbins are still fully available.

Except that's not a Death Guard unit. That's just a bog-standard Chaos Lord with nothing to show/indicate/represent the fact that he's dedicated to Nurgle or part of the Death Guard.

Pseudomonas wrote:
It would have been trivially easy to give the Lord of Contagion (and all the other DG characters) equipment options yet GW chose not to for reasons I simply cannot understand.

The reasons why are unfortunately quite clear. There is no model for a Death Guard Chaos Lord, so you get no rules for a Death Guard Chaos Lord. There's a Chaos Lord model, so you can have rules for that, and a Lord of Contagion model, so you can have rules for him as well. Death Guard Chaos Lord though? Doesn't exist, therefore no rules.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
There is no model for a Death Guard Chaos Lord, so you get no rules for a Death Guard Chaos Lord.

This is what makes no sense. Quite clearly it isn't going to do anything about alternative manufacturers as, even before the DG codex release, there are numerous examples of 'Plagued Lords' wearing heavy armour and wielding a scythe.

I can see absolutely no benefit to this nonsense.

GW can do nothing to stop other manufacturers making proxys for their models and their fumbling attempts are only detrimental to their customers.

Especially when the proxy looks better than the official model.

GW found out the hard way that they need to have the model before sending out rules or they can get killed in IP law.
It puts them in a strange predicament when they describe a model and a competitor puts it out before them.
The "copier" could actually file a violation since they were the first out with the model.
This is why models are coming with their own rules cards.
I kept promoting that any new models should be released with the full data card in White Dwarf.
With an occasional "Chapter Approved" compilation.
It IS really irritating that a model can be easily converted as needed but due to not having an official model, they do not want to create demand and be preempted.

But there is an official model, in fact there are several.

There's nothing stopping them from just saying that this guy has DR and T5. Nothing at all.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
There's nothing stopping them from just saying that this guy has DG and T5. Nothing at all.

This is why making a separate codex with death guard rather than as a supplement is rather irritating.
We may be going down the path of a bunch of factions/armies that cannot stand on their own again (Skitarii, Scions and Deathwatch spring to mind from prior editions).
At least they did not lose their minds making Primaris separate but that would have most likely killed that range.

morgoth wrote:

What got me back into buying GW's stuff was their rules that work well with smaller forces. AoS Skirmish into Path to Glory into 1000 point games is an awesome thing to do.

That must make for a happy couple.

Trust me, you have infinitely more hobbying time when you're single, and generally having kids means you're not.

 Chamberlain wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
This whole discussion, on my part anyway, started with me taking exception to the idea that a happy majority can invalidate the opinion of a displeased minority.

Well, what would their opinion be valid for? Getting a hug from a sympathetic stranger on the internet?

There will always be a displeased minority in any customer base. They aren't even the real problem. The real problem is when you have a growing group of ex-customers who just don't care nor think about you any more. That's the group GW is actively trying to get back. The actively displeased? They know that anything they do to please them will just cause other people on the internet to take their place because they don't like how the problem was solved. That's the nature of change in a business where your customers are geeky people who think they always know better. The rules and models should have a broad appeal as possible and not all individual concerns are worth the money and time needed to fix them.

If we're going to be able to say anything at all whether GW has actually changed or if it's just an illusion, we can't be beholden to the gripes of every customer. Under Kirby GW alienated a lot of people. Lots are coming back. The topic of this thread is whether or not GW has actually changed or if it's a trick. If you make the criteria for actual change that everyone's pet issue must be addressed, their change can never be real. The opinions of the "displeased minority" are likely valid, but definitely meaningless to the larger question.

The thing with the silent (ex-)customers is that you're not hearing them. I see nothing wrong with stating one's opinion, whether it's positive or negative (or anything in between). It has as much meaning as you want to give it. I'll never get people who say their fun is ruined by constant whining by people who have a beef. Similarly, I have zero issue with being in the apparently small minority of liking Centurions and similar things a great many consider of dodgy design.

I'm going to be a little unrealistic here and say my ideal is that anyone interested in this topic simple discusses their points and chooses a side (or not, as anyone sees fit). If you wanted meaning, you should assume that you can gauge at least roughly which side is the majority and the minority. You also have a chance to turn some heads or maybe have your own opinion changed.

Me, I'm in it for the joy of the discussion. But it's probably safe to say that were also seeing people whose express purpose is political and who actively want to change opinions to their position. So there's meaning to be found in that.

At the end of the day, this discussion has as much meaning as you want it to have. If you don't care or if you are happily part of the majority, the discussion we're having is meaningless. The former is self-explanatory while with the latter you can at least assume that GW, if the were paying attention to the discussion, wouldn't displease the majority to win over the minority.

On the specific point, I'm saying it's an individual decision because we the customer cannot make the call as a collective. But we can make up our own mind and listen to the points made by the other side.

The biggest issue is that being the majority doesn't make you right. Nor does happiness make you right. And the same is true for the opposite. The only way to honestly make that call is to be privy to corporate secrets, and you can imagine how that's next to impossible without also having in interesting in keeping it a secret.

 Chamberlain wrote:

Merriam-Webster's Advanced Learner's English Dictionary:

fleece... informal:
to deceive and take money from (someone)

See? I can quote a dictionary, too.

Just because you choose the meaning that require criminal intent doesn't mean it's the only meaning of the word.

I didn't quote the one I did to emphasize the criminal nature of "defraud" but the deceptive nature. So you can plug your definition into my post and change all instances of "defraud" to "deceive" and nothing changes. Is there anything deceptive about how GW marketed the collectors box of plague marines that I quoted in spoiler tags above? No, there is not.

There is no reason to even discuss if GW is a legitimate business. They are. I'm talking about what they do within the boundaries of the law.

Sorry for my unclear communication. I did not intend to address that whatsoever. My point is that they are being straight up in their offerings, even of their super high priced collectors items. There is no deception.

I'll go back to a point I believe I made before. Marketing is deception.

We may be used to it and we may be ok with is, seeing it as part of the game, but marketing usually works by highlighting the positives, convey a positive attitude and diminishing or completely neglecting any negatives.

This isn't some great revelation, nor anything particularly terrible because, as I said, it's part of the game in a free market, but if you accept that GW does marketing now, you should accept that they employ deception.

The entire existence of their online presence is owed to the pursuit of controlling the narrative. They release product information that they deem garners the most interest, at a time most advantageous to them, and when questioned about anything beyond this, they ignore (sometimes through non-committal replies) or delete posts they see as damaging. All in order to cultivate an appearance. Not the full facts, but the facts they wish to present.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
@Geif

I understand playing Devil's Advocate but I'm attacking the argument as is. As I believe it's flawed.

Sorry, I was tired when I wrote my reply and did not fully address your post. Truth is, I'm half playing devil's advocate, while the other half is actual, genuine criticism. You're right about my argument as presented. It was made very well. I'll address it below the next quote, hopefully better and complete this time.

 Chamberlain wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
@Geif

I think you're really reaching to paint Games Workshop in a bad light. Releasing discounted starter army boxes is fleecing? What? Almost every miniature company I know does this. Warlord Games, Privateer Press, Corvus Belli and Wryd to name a few. Yes, Games Workshop's products are more expensive than the discounted boxes. That's why they call them "discounted".

And the Plague Bretheren are entirely optional and aren't actually that expensive for a collector's item.

The funny thing is that I'm not even trying to present GW in a bad light. Would it surprise you to learn that I am reasonably happy with their business conduct?

Then there may be a communication failure on your end. You presented GW's reduced price bundles as the first part of some nefarious plan to fleece the customers.

This is not what I meant at all. I'm quite happy to see the discounted bundles, even if I don't agree with many that they are a good deal but rather think they make the offered goods palatable. Which is fine. I am very willing to pay a fair price for quality. Just not an inflated one.

What I meant is that GW realized that their high pricing model on the whole range was a dud. Instead of lowering prices across the board, which would be nothing but beneficial to the customer, they instead chose a tiered pricing strategy that retained the premium price on much of the range while using discount bundles as gateways. If we were talking about crack instead of plasticrack, it wouldn't even be a question that this strategy was aimed at getting the customer hooked. But since toy soldiers are a legitimate business and there is no overt dependency as with drugs, it's fair game for GW.

And you know what? I don't agree. It's working alright and we have a fantastic financial report to prove it. But that doesn't mean I can't call out the mechanisms at work, because just because something is legal doesn't mean it's palatable.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
There's nothing stopping them from just saying that this guy has DR and T5. Nothing at all.

A good kit to look at is Dark Eldar Wracks that come with extra parts for vehicle crews that are entirely useless on the actual unit but can be used on other models to achieve a theme across an army. GW literally did this. What's stopping them with Death Guard? The whole "no models, no rules" thing is not only bogus but, and I never thought I'd use that term, lazy design.

For the record I am not a GW fanboy who thinks they can do no wrong. I have a lot of issues with GW new and old. I think their pricing model is outrageous and frankly arbitrary. Their currency conversion rates is... "creative" let's just say. The time when the AUD is worth less than a koala's fart has come and gone. And the pound isn't exactly as strong as it used to be either. I wish they would make something new for WHFB fans like myself. Maybe a PDF download ruleset and some assurance that we will be able to buy square bases when they inevitably convert all the legacy kits to circle bases? The move to semi and even full on monopose plastic kits is something I abhor. It was bad enough when they started charging $35 for monpose space marine characters with like one or two options. Now they're doing it to infantry kits?! The new Death Guard release does not give me much hope for the quality of new kits. The sculpts are very nice. As kits it's a dumpster fire.

Frankly one of the reasons why I'm not chomping at the bit to dump my old-marines is because Primaris are just lame as multipart plastic kits.

I mostly buy retail from my GW, and every damn time I feel like a total sucker for not ordering and buying it at 15% off from my FLGS instead.

I think they have learned their lesson, but it was a hard road for both of us...

Over the years I could say I was a boarder line fan boy and bought most releases..Had about every army and a subscription to white dwarf.
At one point during a vacation in Europe, I convinced the wife to make a day trip to Nottingham just to go to GW HQ.
Then just a few years ago, it seemed like they where trying to drive customers away.. double down on magazines as other companies go digital.
Both of them was just okay.. nothing special more of a money sink than anything..

Then they killed Warhammer..This was my favorite game and it was clearly going off the rails... Dark Elf players finally got a good plastic witch elf release
and they charged $90 for 10, plus made it one of the best units in the game.. Rules had gotten convoluted and people complained of lower model count and
some type of entry level game..

Don't want to turn this into a Age of Sigmar debate but I feel after the magazine problems; followed by the train wreak release of AoS.. That left them with
no choice. Good thing was they did turn it around and fix the magazine.. Attempt to fix AoS shows they are trying .. even allowing the return to internet sales
and having a public forum like Facebook pages to see what people are saying.. That was unheard of five years ago..

BUT... I had already given up on Games Workshop at that point.. I have only bought a few items over the past few years, Shadow Wars was one thing..
Even tried AoS with the Generals Handbook.. but its just not the game for me and with my beloved Empire army seeming to be only a bunch of "People" now..

So they can say everything is improving.. and you can see it is.. but from what level... If they did this change before wreaking everything they would be in even a better place.
Because right now.. My group including my self haven't bought into eighth edition and mostly play other games when we get together. They are in a better place right
now but they are not getting my money... I guess I look at them as an ex wife.. just happy they are doing well but don't want to get back with them.

Pseudomonas wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
There is no model for a Death Guard Chaos Lord, so you get no rules for a Death Guard Chaos Lord.

This is what makes no sense. Quite clearly it isn't going to do anything about alternative manufacturers as, even before the DG codex release, there are numerous examples of 'Plagued Lords' wearing heavy armour and wielding a scythe.

I can see absolutely no benefit to this nonsense.

GW can do nothing to stop other manufacturers making proxys for their models and their fumbling attempts are only detrimental to their customers.

Especially when the proxy looks better than the official model.

I generally disliked the DG release but like hell does that ugly (and not in the good way) shaped brick look better than the original.

Lord Kragan wrote:

Pseudomonas wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
There is no model for a Death Guard Chaos Lord, so you get no rules for a Death Guard Chaos Lord.

This is what makes no sense. Quite clearly it isn't going to do anything about alternative manufacturers as, even before the DG codex release, there are numerous examples of 'Plagued Lords' wearing heavy armour and wielding a scythe.

I can see absolutely no benefit to this nonsense.

GW can do nothing to stop other manufacturers making proxys for their models and their fumbling attempts are only detrimental to their customers.

Especially when the proxy looks better than the official model.

I generally disliked the DG release but like hell does that ugly (and not in the good way) shaped brick look better than the original.

Actually I like this more than the GW one. Looks more primal and the details are sharper. Resin has the upper hand in terms of texture and details.
Also your comparing bare resin to painted one. Gw mortar gives the "cheap" plastic look, well the paint job doesn't help. Didn't this mortar came
out earlier than GW version, so which one is the original.

I'd imagine the original is the one Bitspudo ripped off?

And be fair, this one is half cooked. Manky up the front, pristine to the rear. Large areas of no detail.