Spiderman Homecoming.

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**BobtheInquisitor**

The HS in Homecoming reminded me more of a real HS than any of the ones in the previous movies. Too PC? Really? It's a school in New York, and now it finally looks like one.

As for the jock thing--what? How the hell could a jock successfully bully a kid who crawled out from under a collapsed parking garage and walked away? That sounds stupid, and the film would have been stupid to stick to that. Having Flash be an insecure heckler worked, and fits more into the current world of cyberbullying and social media than some 1980's Cobra Kai idiot. In my KS days, I knew a lot of kids like modern Flash and not many at all who fit the classic Revenge of the Nerds trope.

Toomes's reveal worked for me and my wife. It gave us the most tense scene in the film and really helped flesh out the character into one of Marvel's best villains. I hope we see more of him. I don't even care if he is similar to previous villains--Keaton brings enough to the table to differentiate him, and the writers wrote to Keaton's strengths.

MJ in the new film probably is the kind of girl young Millennial men want and women want to be: smart, funny and apparently comfortable with her appearance. It's not that she's unattractive; she just doesn't glam up in the film. Times have changed and gender roles have changed, too.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Keaton is to the MCU as Vincent D'Onofrio is to the Netflix Stable.

Discuss.

**LordofHats**

I think this is my favorite Spider-Man if only because he's goofy and awkward in a way that Toby "please believe I'm under 18" and Garfield "I ride skateboards and have cool hair" just didn't pull of for me. The humor was easily the best since the first Guardians, and Keaton was a great villain.

I like that they managed to bring the MCU down to earth, and skip over the endless parade of "save the world" plot lines that have dominated the franchise since Captain America. This one was grounded in a way I found surprisingly satisfying. Less world dooming and more "this is the world of the MCU now" with much more ordinary people committing more mundane crimes and dealing with more mundane struggles.

That second after credits scene was a complete troll tho.

**Alpharius**

Here's something that's actually really annoying!

Want to have your cake and eat it too?

http://www.ign.com/articles/2017/07/10/spider-man-homecoming-producers-on-the-reveal-of-that-characters-nickname

Spider-Man: Homecoming / 9 Jul 2017
Spider-Man: Homecoming Producers Say Twist to That Character Not What It Seems
Feige and Pascal talk SPOILERS.

By Jim Vejvoda WARNING: This article contains MAJOR SPOILERS about Spider-Man: Homecoming. If you haven't seen the wall-crawler's new movie yet then bookmark this page, go see the movie, and come back and read this interview with the producers!

I recently chatted with Spider-Man: Homecoming producers Kevin Feige and Amy Pascal about the Marvel-Sony movie, during which time we spoke on the record about some of the biggest moments and spoilers in the movie.

I asked about the climactic reveal that Peter Parker's artsy, acerbic classmate Michelle (played by Zendaya) goes by the nickname "MJ," which is the same nickname as Spidey's longtime comics girlfriend and future wife, Mary Jane Watson.

According to the producers, though, just because Michelle also goes by 'MJ," it doesn't mean that she actually is the MCU's version of Mary Jane Watson.

Zendaya as "Michelle" in Spider-Man: Homecoming.

IGN: I'm going to sort of swipe a line from J.J. Abrams and ask why you went the mystery box route with the Michelle/MJ/Zendaya reveal. Can you talk a little bit about the decision to do that?

Feige: Well, we never even looked at it as a big reveal necessarily but more of just a fun homage to his past adventures and his past love. She's not Mary Jane Watson. She never was Mary Jane Watson. She was always this new high school character, Michelle, who we know there's an "M" in Michelle and an "M" in Mary. [laughs] So we're so clever and we thought, "Wouldn't it be neat if her initials were MJ?" And then I think it leaked that she would be playing MJ and then it became a whole headache for Zendaya to have to navigate. It was never a big, "Oh my God, it's a big reveal!" There are big reveals in the movie. That's not one of them.

Pascal: She is not going to end as being Mary Jane Watson.

Feige: She's not Mary-Jane Watson. Is she going to date Peter? Are they going to fall in love? She seems to be intrigued with him. There's a nice chemistry there. Who knows what will happen in the future films?

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

My interpretation: she's going to be this incarnation of Spiderman's love interest, but she's not going to resemble the classic Mary Jane Watson whatsoever. They're doing their own thing, hence the different name, and the initials are just an easter egg or homage and an indication that she's going to fill an equivalent role (love interest).

**timetowaste85**

I realize I'm in the minority. I realize a lot of people loved it. But I like my classic spidey, and this felt completely alien to me. Roll on Miles Morales, Fem-Thor, Cho-Hulk, Captain Falcon (who I actually like), and Fem-Iron Man though. Sigh...

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

I liked Holland's acting better than Toby McGuires. Though whether or not this was a better depiction of Spiderman is of course debatable.

**BobtheInquisitor**

timetowaste85 wrote:
I realize I'm in the minority. I realize a lot of people loved it. But I like my classic spidey, and this felt completely alien to me. Roll on Miles Morales, Fem-Thor, Cho-Hulk, Captain Falcon (who I actually like), and Fem-Iron Man though. Sigh...

You can still have classic Spidey. Not only did he already appear in films before Homecoming, but he'll also have new adventures in five years, after the next reboot.

However, what are your problems with Miles Morales, fem-Muslim?-Iron Man and the rest? Are they actually bad characters in their own right? Because if so, I'd imagine an MCU that can deliver GotG, Antman, and Vulture could also give us some worthwhile interpretations of them.

Or do you just not like new characters co-opting characters' names? If so, you probably won't have to worry about that since branding means Marvel will either come up with new names (Iron Girl?) or just stick to their given names (like in Wonder Woman) to reduce confusion.

**Ouze**

As someone who actually attended high school in NYC, the ethnic makeup of Spider Man Homecoming was pretty accurate.

timetowaste85 wrote:
But I truly feel like they lost sight of everything that makes Peter Spider-Man.

I guess I never considered "a predominantly white supporting cast" to be "everything that makes Peter Spider man", so I guess I don't see the problem, but that sure seems like your main beef.

**BobtheInquisitor**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Keaton is to the MCU as Vincent D'Onofrio is to the Netflix Stable.

Discuss.

Didn't D'Onofrio once play Thor? I heard some rumors about him.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
creeping-deth87 wrote:
Michael Keaton absolutely slayed that movie, I don't think I would have liked it much without him. I'd give the film a solid 7, but only because of Keatons portrayal. I thought the first Andrew Garfield film was the best of the... holy gak, 6 spider man movies we've had so far. Jesus.

Civil war is so far the only phase 3 movie I really like. Hoping Thor will really wow me in November.

Haven't seen it. Is he playing this as a bad guy version of his Birdman, or as Batman?

More like his character in Gung Ho.

**H.B.M.C.**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Keaton is to the MCU as Vincent D'Onofrio is to the Netflix Stable.

Discuss.

"I.... have... to save... Vanessuh!" (/overly dramatic reading)

King Pin is great, don't get me wrong, but there were times when his line reads were funny.

**timetowaste85**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
timetowaste85 wrote:
I realize I'm in the minority. I realize a lot of people loved it. But I like my classic spidey, and this felt completely alien to me. Roll on Miles Morales, Fem-Thor, Cho-Hulk, Captain Falcon (who I actually like), and Fem-Iron Man though. Sigh...

You can still have classic Spidey. Not only did he already appear in films before Homecoming, but he'll also have new adventures in five years, after the next reboot.

However, what are your problems with Miles Morales, fem-Muslim?-Iron Man and the rest? Are they actually bad characters in their own right? Because if so, I'd imagine an MCU that can deliver GotG, Antman, and Vulture could also give us some worthwhile interpretations of them.

Or do you just not like new characters co-opting characters' names? If so, you probably won't have to worry about that since branding means Marvel will either come up with new names (Iron Girl?) or just stick to their given names (like in Wonder Woman) to reduce confusion.

I dislike the new versions because each of the originals have demons that make them who they are. Tony was arrogant and had a drink king problem and almost destroyed himself. His replacement made a suit cuz she thought it was cool. Hulk is a tier tire for Banner, Cho thinks it's "awesome". The new heroes are doing it cuz they think it's fun, the classic heroes did it out of what they felt was an obligation. I don't like the flippant attitude of a bunch of the new characters. And Miles I just dislike cuz he totally happened to have the same thing happen as Peter, but he just hid in the shadows until Peter "died" and then rushed out to take his place. I don't dislike them because I just don't like change; I dislike them because they see this new role as a cool hobby instead of great power requiring great responsibility.

**LordofHats**

I could see that for every character but Miles Morales. Miles didn't jump into it because he thought it was cool. He didn't want anything to do with it because it scared him, and Peter Parker being alive gave him an excuse to do nothing with that power. When Peter died and he saw what was happening in a world without Spider-Man he stepped up, and I'd point out his first major encounter with a real villain was pretty damn harrowing and emotionally traumatizing. His "Uncle Ben" was a similar but distinct experience that set him apart from Peter while teaching a similar lesson to Miles as a person and a hero.

Point being Miles was never even remotely flippant about what he did or why.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

timetowaste85 wrote:
BobtheInquisitor wrote:
timetowaste85 wrote:
I realize I'm in the minority. I realize a lot of people loved it. But I like my classic spidey, and this felt completely alien to me. Roll on Miles Morales, Fem-Thor, Cho-Hulk, Captain Falcon (who I actually like), and Fem-Iron Man though. Sigh...

You can still have classic Spidey. Not only did he already appear in films before Homecoming, but he'll also have new adventures in five years, after the next reboot.

However, what are your problems with Miles Morales, fem-Muslim?-Iron Man and the rest? Are they actually bad characters in their own right? Because if so, I'd imagine an MCU that can deliver GotG, Antman, and Vulture could also give us some worthwhile interpretations of them.

Or do you just not like new characters co-opting characters' names? If so, you probably won't have to worry about that since branding means Marvel will either come up with new names (Iron Girl?) or just stick to their given names (like in Wonder Woman) to reduce confusion.

I dislike the new versions because each of the originals have demons that make them who they are. Tony was arrogant and had a drink king problem and almost destroyed himself. His replacement made a suit cuz she thought it was cool. Hulk is a tier tire for Banner, Cho thinks it's "awesome". The new heroes are doing it cuz they think it's fun, the classic heroes did it out of what they felt was an obligation. I don't like the flippant attitude of a bunch of the new characters. And Miles I just dislike cuz he totally happened to have the same thing happen as Peter, but he just hid in the shadows until Peter "died" and then rushed out to take his place. I don't dislike them because I just don't like change; I dislike them because they see this new role as a cool hobby instead of great power requiring great responsibility.

Given Tony and Peter's relationship in Homecoming, I wonder if that's something they're specifically trying to address.

Cap was the first. Then came Hulk, Tony and Thor. Each of them kind of had it all thrust upon them in one way or another. Each of them to different degrees have matured over the previous films, especially Tony.

Peter Parker is the first superhero we've met that does what he does because of The Avengers. He's the young, up-and-coming star - but pretty much lacks wisdom. That's not because he's not being doing it for long, but because he's barely begun to adult.

Whatever happens in the future, we're going to see Cap, Thor, Hulk and Ironman play lesser roles. They can't be the focus forever, and with each new blockbuster, the actor's asking prices go up.

So reduce them down to mentor like cameo roles. Enough to hand the baton over, maybe get involved in the really big rucks. But definitely second fiddle to the titular hero we're watching.

The Avengers changed the world - and now they're having to deal with the responsibility that follows.

**Frazzled**

DOwney Jr. already said he's done playing Iron Man and looking to retire.

**jmurph**

I think getting away from Downey is a good thing. His insistence on everything being centered on IM is getting old. He also isn't bringing much depth to the character despite 3 movies to flesh him out. Since Downey's IM is so effects driven, I can't imagine it will be terribly difficult to replace him.

Really, I found IM's admonishments to Parker to ring very hollow given Stark's continued arrogance and frequent disregard for others. Heck, wasn't the last movie pretty much Captain America picking up IM's slack? Avenger's 2's main conflict was largely due to Stark. At least Spidey has the excuse that he's a 16 year old kid instead of a grown man continually acting like a child. Complete with major daddy issues, no less!

**Alpharius**

I'm pretty sure Tony knows he's NOT a great Father figure, but he's trying - there are a few scenes to that effect in Homecoming...

But yes, I'm also fairly sure that the MCU will eventually move on from Tony/Ironman/RDJ - I think it's fairly even money that he'll bite it in INFINITY WAR too...

**Ouze**

timetowaste85 wrote:
I don't dislike them because I just don't like change; I dislike them because they see this new role as a cool hobby instead of great power requiring great responsibility.

On this one, you're definitely right. The new Peter Parker from SMH definitely didn't seem to be clearly driven by power-based obligation the way previous ones have. Tobey Maguire probably did that the best.

jmurph wrote:
Really, I found IM's admonishments to Parker to ring very hollow given Stark's continued arrogance and frequent disregard for others.

I don't at all. For example:

"What were you thinking?"
"I wanted to be like you."
"And I wanted you to be better than me."

I think Tony Stark - not only in this movie but in the last few - is a dude who is really, really aware of his shortcomings.

**timetowaste85**

LordofHats wrote:
I could see that for every character but Miles Morales. Miles didn't jump into it because he thought it was cool. He didn't want anything to do with it because it scared him, and Peter Parker being alive gave him an excuse to do nothing with that power. When Peter died and he saw what was happening in a world without Spider-Man he stepped up, and I'd point out his first major encounter with a real villain was pretty damn harrowing and emotionally traumatizing. His "Uncle Ben" was a similar but distinct experience that set him apart from Peter while teaching a similar lesson to Miles as a person and a hero.

Point being Miles was never even remotely flippant about what he did or why.

I actually listed Miles differently, because I know he wasn't about the "cool-factor". I disliked with him that they killed Peter off and then "oh my god, here's a kid who is just like him who has been hiding in the shadows, look everyone, Spidey is back!!!" It felt like a slap to everyone who is a Parker fan. I never got past the introduction of Miles because of how insulted I felt by Bendis. Miles could be a great Spidey and a well written character now, for all I know. But his introduction was so sloppy, that it felt like a slap. So I voted with my wallet.

**Alpharius**

Ouze wrote:
timetowaste85 wrote:
I don't dislike them because I just don't like change; I dislike them because they see this new role as a cool hobby instead of great power requiring great responsibility.

On this one, you're definitely right. The new Peter Parker from SMH definitely didn't seem to be clearly driven by power-based obligation the way previous ones have. Tobey Maguire probably did that the best.

In their desire and effort to not retell the origin story (again), I think they did leave out that important bit.

I do get the feeling that Peter Parker is still driven to use his powers for good - but they didn't do a good job of telling us that in this movie, or explaining 'why'.

Ouze wrote:

jmurph wrote:
Really, I found IM's admonishments to Parker to ring very hollow given Stark's continued arrogance and frequent disregard for others.

I don't at all. For example:

"What were you thinking?"
"I wanted to be like you."
"And I wanted you to be better than me."

I think Tony Stark - not only in this movie but in the last few - is a dude who is really, really aware of his shortcomings.

Good points there - agreed!

Again, it is done quickly and movie shorthand style, but yes, it's definitely there...

**LordofHats**

timetowaste85 wrote:
LordofHats wrote:
I could see that for every character but Miles Morales. Miles didn't jump into it because he thought it was cool. He didn't want anything to do with it because it scared him, and Peter Parker being alive gave him an excuse to do nothing with that power. When Peter died and he saw what was happening in a world without Spider-Man he stepped up, and I'd point out his first major encounter with a real villain was pretty damn harrowing and emotionally traumatizing. His "Uncle Ben" was a similar but distinct experience that set him apart from Peter while teaching a similar lesson to Miles as a person and a hero.

Point being Miles was never even remotely flippant about what he did or why.

I actually listed Miles differently, because I know he wasn't about the "cool-factor". I disliked with him that they killed Peter off and then "oh my god, here's a kid who is just like him who has been hiding in the shadows, look everyone, Spidey is back!!!" It felt like a slap to everyone who is a Parker fan. I never got past the introduction of Miles because of how insulted I felt by Bendis. Miles could be a great Spidey and a well written character now, for all I know. But his introduction was so sloppy, that it felt like a slap. So I voted with my wallet.

I felt his intro and early story segments were very good. The part I didn't like is later in his Ultimate run (I haven't kept up), where the writer seemed to become overly obsessed with justifying Miles as a character rather than simply letting the character exist and develop his own stories. Much of the middle of his early run became obsessed with Miles meeting and getting the approval of Peter Parker's friends and family, and it kept dragging. Especially with how good his first few stories were, particularly his battle with his own master criminal uncle and his first encounter with Venom, it's a shame the writer got bogged down in trying to convince people he should exist when by that point anyone who didn't like him would have long since stopped reading.

**BobtheInquisitor**

If RDJ Iron Man does die in Infinity War, I'd be okay with some young genius replacing him in the role, motivated perhaps because Stark saved her life and she feels a debt she can never repay...

...but only if they call her Iron Maiden.

**LordofHats**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:

...but only if they call her Iron Maiden.

**Frazzled**

Iron TIMMY!

**H.B.M.C.**

Frazzled wrote:
DOwney Jr. already said he's done playing Iron Man and looking to retire.

He didn't actually say that. He said he wants to get out before its embarrassing.

And it's not the first time he's made rumblings about leaving.

**AduroT**

Really enjoy the current Miles comics.

Personally didn't like the first eight issue story arc of Lady Thor because I felt there was way too much emphasis on the Lady part being more important than the Thor part but still had to repeatedly tell us they were also a better Thor than Thor. The stuff after that eight has been a lot better though and I'm currently enjoying it.

Like Kamala Khan, even the stupid meme stuff because it's amusing. She's had generally good stories, though Champions is probably excessively heavy handed political.

Iron Heart has been pretty good. I like her recent interaction with Doom Iron Man. She's currently in the got potential but still kind of sucks at being a hero stage.

**ZergSmasher**

I saw Homecoming the other day, and I really enjoyed it, like all of the MCU movies thus far. The villain was very well done, much more down-to-earth and believable than other MCU villains. Of course, that doesn't mean much in a movie series based on comic books, but...eh. The new Spidey was very good, at least as good as Toby McGuire. I just can't really complain about anything in the movie, really.

Spoiler:

**jmurph**

The Cap PSAs were awesome. I loved how they were poking fun at themselves.

**Blackie**

I saw it last wednesday and I liked it. I'm not a real fan of the MCU but the most recent movies belonging to that franchise were all decent at least, and I've always enjoyed watching those films even if they aren't my favorite genre.

I watched the entire spiderman saga and the first two chapters directed by Sam Raimi are still by far the best among this movies. They had one of my favorite directors and most importantly they were tragic and full of drama, while the new one is basically a cartoon and I don't really like that style, even if it's closer to the original comic, which I never read.

Spiderman Homecoming has a decent but not unforgettable plot, the two protagonists Tom Holland and Michael Keaton are actually the most interesting part of the movie, especially the villain, IMHO second only to Willhem Dafoe's Goblin. Quite better than the last two movies though, who were really bad despite the divine Emma Stone.

The only real critique that I can do is about the presence of zendaya, who was there only to lure some under15 kids. Her character is totally useless with her 10 lines in total but still quite annoying.

**Compel**

Discounting the Guardians films I'd describe Homecoming as the most entertaining MCU film. I probably wouldn't tank it as one of the *best* but entertaining is definitely the word I'd use.

Keaton was good, not the character I expected but good all the same. Kinda felt like a combo of Green Goblin and DCs Captain Cold.

I was fine with the supporting cast, had my reservations about the MJ thing originally but the whole "oh I'm Michelle" just sidestepped all my concerns.

So yeah entertaining film.