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Yeah, I mean Last Sword.


And old school fantasy? Moorcock, Vance and Howard? Because they all had much more interesting ideas than anything found on that mini. The old, old uninspired art that interpreted Middle Earth through a purely historical European aesthetic was always boring, and smacked of the contemporaneous culture that derided fantasy and science fiction as juvenile garbage or the playground of deviants.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Yeah, I mean Last Sword.


And old school fantasy? Moorcock, Vance and Howard? Because they all had much more interesting ideas than anything found on that mini. The old, old uninspired art that interpreted Middle Earth through a purely historical European aesthetic was always boring, and smacked of the contemporaneous culture that derided fantasy and science fiction as juvenile garbage or the playground of deviants.

Tbf Tolkien himself seems to have interpreted fantasy through a European historical aesthetic.

Not sure why you're in such disbelief over the fact that people might actually like such a look.

MattW wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Yeah, I mean Last Sword.


And old school fantasy? Moorcock, Vance and Howard? Because they all had much more interesting ideas than anything found on that mini. The old, old uninspired art that interpreted Middle Earth through a purely historical European aesthetic was always boring, and smacked of the contemporaneous culture that derided fantasy and science fiction as juvenile garbage or the playground of deviants.

Tbf Tolkien himself seems to have interpreted fantasy through a European historical aesthetic.

Not sure why you're in such disbelief over the fact that people might actually like such a look.

People can like the look without disturbing me. They can even pay more for the privilege of calling a historical mini a fantasy mini. But showing dismay that someone doesn't find it's obviously an elf? Too far!

The introduction of more Euro-Tolkien minis bother me for the same reason as another set of Napoleonics, Germans, Pirates or zombies bother me. Why bother with something new when you can play it safe? Do they save a lot of money on talented design artists and sculptors by aiming for the "old school" market?

But it's very clearly ~not~ a historical mini. Who in reality dressed quite like that? Maybe if you combined elements from a few different periods, and even then, you probably wouldn't get that result.

I'm not sure that reviving a style that's about 30 years old is necessarily playing it safe, either. Other styles of elf all seem to be a variant of the GW or WETA style, which makes them just as derivative as far as I can tell. Who else makes plastic 'euro-Tolkien' miniatures? Apart from Grenadier, who produces any at all?

I'll give you that the sculpts are a little less, er, sophisticated than many modern sculpts, but I'm guessing that was part of the brief. Simple miniatures are probably better suited to mass-battle games anyhow.

MattW wrote:
But it's very clearly ~not~ a historical mini. Who in reality dressed quite like that? Maybe if you combined elements from a few different periods, and even then, you probably wouldn't get that result.

I'm not sure that reviving a style that's about 30 years old is necessarily playing it safe, either. Other styles of elf all seem to be a variant of the GW or WETA style, which makes them just as derivative as far as I can tell. Who else makes plastic 'euro-Tolkien' miniatures? Apart from Grenadier, who produces any at all?

I'll give you that the sculpts are a little less, er, sophisticated than many modern sculpts, but I'm guessing that was part of the brief. Simple miniatures are probably better suited to mass-battle games anyhow.

The elf looks like a Norman with a bob haircut. And a poor Norman at that. If Tolkien is our standard and historical costume our guide for fantasy, then the elves at least ought to have the same level of panache and tech as the classical armies. The classical Greeks, the Romans, and the Byzantines all had soldiers that dressed much snazzier than the elf shown above. I'm all about practical armor design, but I feel that a part of fantasy is a bit of license to at least skirt the line of interesting historical design.

I don't really have the nostalgia glasses, and I can't really see the appeal of an army of "fantasy" elves that is stylistically a single feather away from a dark age Norman.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:


The introduction of more Euro-Tolkien minis bother me for the same reason as another set of Napoleonics, Germans, Pirates or zombies bother me. Why bother with something new when you can play it safe? Do they save a lot of money on talented design artists and sculptors by aiming for the "old school" market?

I'm confused by this. Both because the play it safe question answers itself (if going old school is actually playing it safe at this point, which a quick look around at various games suggests it isn't), but also that something 'new' is inherently a good move.

This is both on the 'will it actually appeal to people, so they'll buy it' side of things (GW has transitioned to the occasional purveyor of 'new' models with 'new' aesthetics that I wouldn't give a corroded penny for) and the more philosophical, why is your assumption new=good?


There simply isn't a lot of this kind of fantasy around these days, as it's been overshadowed by the kitchen sink blenders of techno-nonsense (among other things) that characterize warcraft and warhammer and shoehorning guns and outlandish nonsense into pretty much everything.
It will be interesting to see if it can succeed, and quite nice if it does.

Aesthetically, for me, the elf is on a par with GW elves of the 1980s, which does kind of make it a match for the goblins and dwarves... except that, frankly, GW's 80s elves were rather dull sculpts even thirty years ago, IMO. And, unlike the dwarf and goblin of the previews, there seems to have been no real attempt to improve on the 80s designs. The dwarf and goblin are recognisably similar to classic 80s minis, in that I could see the dwarves fitting fine with my 80s GW minis and the goblins with older or 80s-inspired ranges like Scotia Grendel or Grenadier; yet these new plastics also, if anything, are a bit more coherent and characterful. More importantly they're plastic, which is a big draw for me when it comes to putting together big armies. I bought a couple of boxes of the dwarves even though I already have a shedload of dwarves from various manufacturers, because they're the nicest plastic dwarves I've ever seen, which admittedly is not a super high bar.

Yep, I'm in the same boat. Was looking for an army of dwarves some time ago and there is very little that isn't heavily stylised in one way or another.

Think for me these are probably some of the nicest, along with the earlier LoTR dwarf miniatures.

It seems like a Dark Ages model that's been converted without really going the extra mile to let you know it's not a conversion.

I think elves benefit from longer, more slender profiles, more elegantly designed weapons and armor, and scale mail instead of chain mail.

A bit more cloth and leather would be preferable as underlying armor, as would a more enclosed helm with a nose guard. A skull cap doesn't really scream "Elf" to me, nor does a standard bastard sword with cross hilt.

It's just, bland. Take away the head and it's a normal Saxon/Norman/Viking/etc from the Dark Ages.

Werner Klocke nailed the look for Elves for the Reaper Warlord range, imo, and so did the design team behind the Peter Jackson LOTR films.

~iPaint

JSG wrote:

So had you seen that figure with no accompanying text, you'd have thought it was a historical mini? Again, why pretend? Is it a bit vanilla? Yeah. Then again that's obviously the kind of look they're going for so there's only so much they could do without losing that.

Here's the thing, I guess:

That elf strongly inspires feelings of complete indifference to me. (I know there's an oxymoron there!) If "meh" was a wargames figure, that elf would be it.
But.
I like GW's Elf Look, and PJ's LotR Elf Look, and a lot of Reaper's stuff - so I'm personally well served for elves. I can find elves that I like pretty easily.
You guys who like these figures - well, now you have something that suits your preferred aesthetic and meets your needs. This can only be a good thing. Not every model needs to be made for me. So without any snark or sarcasm - enjoy your North Star elves!

I'm not much for the 80's retro minis, I'm more interested in the campaign system. I doubt that I will drop KoW for this but the campaign system might be worth stealing

Is it just me, or does that Elf look like it has a moustache?

None the less, Osprey and North Star have never let me down when it comes to games. Osprey's wargames books are first class

would recommend them to anybody.

I think I'll get into this.

Got my box of dwarves through the post earlier, they look pretty damned good in person.

I also ordered a set of the "Dwarf Flag and Shield Transfers" from Little Big Men Studios sold along side them, very impressive print quality, if anyone else has been considering these, you only get what you see in the image. They seem to be self adhesive.

Really looking forward to playing with these

Depending on how the finished models look. I'll probably be pre-ordering the goblins as well whenever they get announced.

I'd be willing to bet the painted goblin shown will be the free pre-order only model with the box of 30.

Goblin multi-part plastics sneak peek:

Plastic goblin sprue pics, I suppose this means the pre-order starts soon:

I'm real interested in at least one kit for RPG play.

JSG wrote:
LOOK AT THE CHAINMAIL ON THAT DWARF! Disgusting.

Seriously though, why are people pretending that Elf doesn't look like an Elf? There's no way any of us would have mistaken it for anything else. I'd like the design to be a little more refined. Have the helm cover the cheeks, a noseguard, I might've given him scalemail. Overall I really like the stripped back, old school design and the boxes are great value.

Pretending? He looks like a human. There's nothing about that mini at all that says 'elf.

Not even ears.

I'm excited about the dwarves and the orc/goblins!

The elf bores me - for the same "It looks like someone messed up a Norman" reasons above.

That's...about all I got. But man, I *really* like those dwarves and goblins.

I like the elf.

I do agree it looks like it comes from a Elven civilization that is experiencing a bit of a dark age though.

The face looks like the 4th edition plastic Elf face, which gets my approval.

Fancier helms would be nice.

Maybe if those shoulder plates were a bit bigger, with connector plates between them and that front oval and a matching one in the back? Sort of a plate mantle/gorget down to the chest? I dunno.

 Vulcan wrote:

JSG wrote:
LOOK AT THE CHAINMAIL ON THAT DWARF! Disgusting.

Seriously though, why are people pretending that Elf doesn't look like an Elf? There's no way any of us would have mistaken it for anything else. I'd like the design to be a little more refined. Have the helm cover the cheeks, a noseguard, I might've given him scalemail. Overall I really like the stripped back, old school design and the boxes are great value.

Pretending? He looks like a human. There's nothing about that mini at all that says 'elf.

Not even ears.

Yes, pretending. Elves look like humans with pointy ears. That's really it. It looks like just about every elf mini made during the 80's. Surprisingly, it's an elf.

Which is why it is so important to demonstrate their inhuman character through their dress. For example, elves have keener senses, finer craftsmanship, patience for art, Grace and harmony with their physical and spiritual world. None of that shows up on Norman the Dive Elf there.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Is it just me, or does that Elf look like it has a moustache?

At a first glance, yeah, the painted version looks like he has a big, droopy blonde moustache.



Doesn't look like an Elf. Looks like a bad Asian caricature in quasi-European armour.

Honestly one look at those facial features and I immediately see elf. The issue doesn't seem like anything more than 'ahh it's different!' to me.

MattW wrote:

 Zethnar wrote:
It was popular because it did a cheap, Mordheimy skirmish that let you use whatever minis you happened to have lying around.

The rules didn't have to be fantastic (in fact they weren't, a lot of the XP mechanics left a lot to be desired) but it was simple and fun enough to be worth the price of entry.

As for Oathmark, I'm loving both the Dwarf and the Goblin minis. I'm not sure about the combined factions stuff though. It would probably bother me less if it was monster races / humanoid races that can combine forces (order / chaos, light / dark, however you want to put it).

Hard agree on the combined factions. Though I suspect that many will be getting these for KoW or whatever else they play, and given that the minis seem to be coming out well before the rules, I'm pretty sure that North Star are hoping for this.

I'm most excited about the possibility of nice elves. I reckon the last decent (and affordable) sculpt of a basic elf spearman was the one from the 4th ed WHFB box. Mantic elves are... an acquired taste, and GW don't really produce affordable basic Elven infantry that could be used as 'goodies'(Lothern Sea Guard don't really count as affordable, IMO- but that might just be an Australian thing).

you and me are together on the elves front.

Good quality miniatures for good value is always tempting. I might not be all over the throwback styles but it's fairly refreshing that they don't have a million fiddly bits and are kind of generic. They're much more broadly useful that way. I think they'll really reward even simple conversion work, too.

I like that they want to have rules for mixed armies. Fantasy wargames are too often just Race War with little interest in the mixing of cultures that would actually happen.

 insaniak wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Is it just me, or does that Elf look like it has a moustache?

Doesn't look like an Elf. Looks like a bad Asian caricature in quasi-European armour.

Yes, that just about sums it up for me too.

Missed opportunity here...

 Vulcan wrote:

JSG wrote:
LOOK AT THE CHAINMAIL ON THAT DWARF! Disgusting.

Seriously though, why are people pretending that Elf doesn't look like an Elf? There's no way any of us would have mistaken it for anything else. I'd like the design to be a little more refined. Have the helm cover the cheeks, a noseguard, I might've given him scalemail. Overall I really like the stripped back, old school design and the boxes are great value.

Pretending? He looks like a human. There's nothing about that mini at all that says 'elf.

Not even ears.

Uhm... Elves are supposed to look like humans you know. They literally are supposed to look like humans with pointy ears. All the other things that set them apart, such as immortality and great skill and grace, are kinda hard to capture in a miniature because they are immaterial. An expertly Elven-made coat of mail is going to look much the same as an ordinary Human-made coat of mail on a 28mm miniature, even if their qualities are quite different.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Which is why it is so important to demonstrate their inhuman character through their dress. For example, elves have keener senses, finer craftsmanship, patience for art, Grace and harmony with their physical and spiritual world. None of that shows up on Norman the Dive Elf there.

And how would you do that in a 28mm miniature while remaining loyal to Tolkien's practical Dark Age aesthetic? It is difficult to differentiate them from humans too much if you want to have classical Tolkien-inspired figures.
I guess you could give the elves scale mail or a more elaborate version of mirror plate armour and a slightly more elaborate helmet, but that would be about it.
And just to nitpick :p He does not look like a Norman. I have yet to see evidence of Normans wearing mirror plate armour. In fact, I think the only place in Europe where mirror plate was ever used was medieval Russia (it is originally an asian kind of armour).

Did Tolkien specify that Elves went to battle in chain mail tunics and those particular helms? If not, there is plenty of room to add decoration and innovation...but then you might end up with Peter Jackson elves or GW elves or some third thing which is also cool and distinct. If Tolkien did specify that elves dress exactly like humans, just buy some Gripping Beast historical minis and save some money. If you need the Asian Charicature face, Fireforge Mongols have you covered.

Really, though, if boring minis are the only way to properly portray Tolkien's vision, then maybe just drop him and read something else.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Did Tolkien specify that Elves went to battle in chain mail tunics and those particular helms? If not, there is plenty of room to add decoration and innovation...but then you might end up with Peter Jackson elves or GW elves or some third thing which is also cool and distinct. If Tolkien did specify that elves dress exactly like humans, just buy some Gripping Beast historical minis and save some money. If you need the Asian Charicature face, Fireforge Mongols have you covered.

Really, though, if boring minis are the only way to properly portray Tolkien's vision, then maybe just drop him and read something else.

Given that Tolkien's writings consistently mention 'coats of mail', yes he did. Tolkien did specify a Dark Age/Early Medieval theme for Middle Earth.
And calling Peter Jackson elves or GW elves distinct is just weird, given the fact that everyone and their grandmother has copied and been inspired by those designs. Dark Age elves are in fact a lot more distinct. If you don't like that design then you can just buy GW WHFB or LotR elves.
And no. Buying historical miniatures won't do. Tolkien's world was inspired by history, but it was not the same. Elves aren't the same thing as norsemen or saxons, even if they both wear a coat of mail. It is like saying you should just buy WW2 miniatures if you want to play Imperial Guard in 40k.
I am going to wait until I see the possibilities of the sprue before I am going to comment on whether they are distinct enough as elves or not, but I like that they are sticking to a Dark Age aesthetic. Great for when I ever get around to making some nice Dark Age fantasy armies.