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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Meh, I just took it as a part of showing his off-the-grid lifestyle, and a fun nod back to the blue milk in ANH.

It was also those things.


Like, if they showed him wiping his butt with purple seaweed, it would demonstrate his off the grid lifestyle, and be a fun nod back to the existence of the Special Editions, but it would also be gross and likely only included if it was meant to be funny.

I know that you know humor is relative and all that, but...you might be reading stuff into that scene that isn't there AND wasn't intended...

 Overread wrote:
The milking scene was unexpected, but honestly if it were a feral cow he milked and drank from everyone would be going "where the heck did they get a freaking cow? Seriously it should have been some strange alien thing"

Maybe this is an urban/rural thing, but everyone in the theater here in the city went "eww" at that scene. If he had milked a cow and drank the milk immediately, they still would have said, "eww" but maybe not as enthusiastically.


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 Alpharius wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Meh, I just took it as a part of showing his off-the-grid lifestyle, and a fun nod back to the blue milk in ANH.

It was also those things.


Like, if they showed him wiping his butt with purple seaweed, it would demonstrate his off the grid lifestyle, and be a fun nod back to the existence of the Special Editions, but it would also be gross and likely only included if it was meant to be funny.

I know that you know humor is relative and all that, but...you might be reading stuff into that scene that isn't there AND wasn't intended...

Well, then I'm far from alone. If the green milk drinking was not intended in any way to be funny and gross it sadly failed as hard as Holdo's leadership.

I think the "ew" bit is expected. It's an alien and its green so its "abnormal" to most people so its expected. Much as people not accustomed to drinking straight from a cow would likely go a bit ew at that as well (don't forget most milk is pasteurised and processed, even those fully familiar with where milk comes from might easily consider it "dirty" without being processed before consumption).

It's still weirder then the blue milk from Bantha's, at least those look like giant space yaks rather then milking the local walrus.

This is the weirdest segment to be focusing on in this thread that's for sure.

I thought it was hilarious how cool the space walrus was with it. And then it turned to Rey like, "Hey girl, you going get some or no?"

 Overread wrote:
I think the "ew" bit is expected. It's an alien and its green so its "abnormal" to most people so its expected. Much as people not accustomed to drinking straight from a cow would likely go a bit ew at that as well (don't forget most milk is pasteurised and processed, even those fully familiar with where milk comes from might easily consider it "dirty" without being processed before consumption).

As someone who lives on a farm with cattle (not dairy, thankfully), the reaction should be 'Ew.' They are not clean creatures, particularly this time of year- they're quite happy to lay down in their own crap as insulation.

It's completely a gross out gag. It certainly doesn't come off as an 'off the grid,' thing, given the sudden appearance of (apparently invisibility-capable) caretakers who just randomly show up after the 7th or 8th hard camera cut.

Overread wrote:The milking scene was unexpected, but honestly if it were a feral cow he milked and drank from everyone would be going "where the heck did they get a freaking cow? Seriously it should have been some strange alien thing"

Eh. Considering all the other things crammed on the tiny island that turn up unexpectedly, I'd put that reaction fairly far down on the list. A space cow probably would have been comforting, rather than a weird bipedal walrus that was rather slimy and oddly textured, with teats in the wrong place for a biped, and an inviting looking in her eye.

Voss wrote:

It's completely a gross out gag. It certainly doesn't come off as an 'off the grid,' thing, given the sudden appearance of (apparently invisibility-capable) caretakers who just randomly show up after the 7th or 8th hard camera cut.

I don't think they 'suddenly' showed up... I think it was just supposed to convey that Rey wasn't aware they were there until she snapped out of her vision.

Well, I finally saw it. It's been interesting staying away from spoilers and yet being peripherally aware of the conversation around it. I liked it, and I think I'll probably like it more the more I think about it.

I learned (re-learned?) a lot from the recent Twin Peaks revival about being aware of how I experience my entertainment, and not making demands upon it that really aren't mine to make. The director made some decisions that were never going to please a fanbase with many strong yet heterogeneous demands. And when I step back and forget about my own egotistical expectations, I think that most of his choices were what they had to be.

I haven't read all 50-odd pages of this thread -- just the last couple, actually -- and unfortunately the space cow milk discussion is the kind of thing I expected to see.

If only Blade Runner got this sort of scrutiny here. There might have been some really good discussions. Too bad.

 insaniak wrote:

Voss wrote:

It's completely a gross out gag. It certainly doesn't come off as an 'off the grid,' thing, given the sudden appearance of (apparently invisibility-capable) caretakers who just randomly show up after the 7th or 8th hard camera cut.

I don't think they 'suddenly' showed up... I think it was just supposed to convey that Rey wasn't aware they were there until she snapped out of her vision.

However, she didn't notice them after arriving, while wandering around the island, while resting, eating or before going to sleep. Mystic Vision blindness is one thing, not noticing people while exploring, wandering around, eating in the courtyard or even who is in the little huts next to yours is just taking oblivious to a whole new level. Especially in a completely new and alien environment, for someone who probably had to pay attention and sleep lightly around greedy scavengers and whatever dangers existed on not-Tatooine.

 gorgon wrote:
I liked it, and I think I'll probably like it more the more I think about it.

I've been the opposite. I liked it more as the credits rolled and less as time has gone on.

That said I still like it and will probably see it again when it comes out on bluray/itunes/TV/whatever.

 insaniak wrote:

 Riquende wrote:

If you've come into this thread with "I loved every minute" or "up there with the best of Star Wars" then I just want you to think about the scene where Luke is milking that space-Walrus. Milking that teat real good. Squeezing that green milk out. Now he's drinking that freshliy squeezed walrus-teat milk. Drinking it whilst looking at you, holding your eye. Yeah. Look at Luke. Keep looking. Loved every minute, you said.

I liked that scene. What's your point?

Me too, we drink milk from animals teats everyday. At least I do, a big fresh cup every morning. When I call over to my cousins house i get a cup straight from the cows, unpasteurised creamy. Leaves you with a proper milk moustache. It’s lovely, we are a family of farmers and he does dairy.
If your one of these people who thinks milk comes from Tesco’s then you have the problem.

 Riquende wrote:
I've come to terms with the fact there's just no arguing with people right now. I remember it well in the prequel era, folks just would not listen to the idea that Star Wars films could be bad. It was a good 5 years after the trilogy ended before critical analysis flipped the critics' reviews on their head and 'common consensus' came round to realising the turkeys that we'd been sold.

Thinking back I think you may be mistaken there. I seem to remember Phantom Menace getting rather average reviews at the time, certainly nothing like the reception from critics that The Last Jedi has received. I do think though that the levels of hype were unreal for that film, and there was absolutely no way they could have met the expectations of fans and critics (although that doesn't stop those films from being fundamentally flawed, and missing the core ethos of Star Wars and them being a bit of swashbuckling entertainment.)

Certainly remember the Matrix coming out at a similar time and blowing everyone away, and it creeping up on everyone because all of the attention was on TPM.

Yeah, TPM was widely criticised from the get go, largely for the pod race being way too long, Anakin and Jar Jar being way too annoying, and the plot just generally making no sense.

And IIRC, the two following movies got fairly mixed reactions from both fans and critics, also right from the start.

By this point, people are well across the idea that Star Wars movies can be bad movies. As much as I still enjoy the prequels, I'm aware of their flaws, and so my expectations for the current crop of movies were low.

The reason people are disagreeing with the claim that TLJ is a bad movie isn't anything to do with wearing blinkers where Star Wars is concerned... It's simply because some of us don't think it was a bad movie.

 insaniak wrote:
It's simply because some of us don't think it was a bad movie.

I actually think its the best Starwars Movie since the original 3

Personally I wish they'd made it a little longer to squeeze in a short scene or two about having a spy on the cruiser. That would neatly explain why the generals didn't give any of their commanders or staff order as to what their overall plan was. That would explain why the lead characters remained ignorant of the overall master plan; and also why they didn't just leap into hyperspace in the transports or escape pods etc... I get the feeling that there was a spy sup-plot there but that it potentially got cut out because of the films overall length.

I had deliberately stayed away from this forum until I saw the movie. Any of my friends who had watched it had loved it. I loved it. It seems this hasn’t passed into the internet world. There it is, I suppose people have different tastes. But I’m slightly sad at some comments because I really believe some people really don’t want to like the new films. I get that rogue one was awesome as it moved away from the main cast and I hope we see plenty more like that but the current trilogy needs to be made to wrap up the skywalker family story.

Star Wars isn’t my fav sci fi genre, 40k is because it’s serious, moody and desperate. Star Wars is cheesy, emotional, funny and cool. I love it for what it is. I think people are looking for 40k in Star Wars that’s not going to happen.

 Knockagh wrote:
Star Wars isn’t my fav sci fi genre, 40k is because it’s serious, moody and desperate. Star Wars is cheesy, emotional, funny and cool. I love it for what it is. I think people are looking for 40k in Star Wars that’s not going to happen.

Not in a Star Wars movie, no, but it has been done in video games like KOTOR and other parts of the old EU. KOTOR set the standard for a serious and moody Star Wars story. And I want to see a movie adaptation of KOTOR 1 & 2. Even an animated movie.

 Knockagh wrote:
...the current trilogy needs to be made to wrap up the skywalker family story.

That is the exact opposite of what the sequel trilogy has done. At the end of Return of the Jedi Luke had helped Anakin find redemption in death, and Luke and Leia had restored the family honour by destroying the evil Empire that their father had helped to build - the perfect ending to the Skywalker family story. The Force Awakens undid this by adding a new generation of genocidal Skywalker, and due to deaths both in and out of universe there is no longer anyone left to expunge this new stain on the Skywalker name. Luke, Han and Carrie Fisher are all dead; all that is left of the Skywalkers is Darth Columbine.

Luke defeated the Emperor and the Alliance beat the Empire back; but at the end of Return of the Jedi things were still very much in turmoil. Honestly I wish Disney would do another "Rogue One" style story going over the events between films 6 and 7 - ergo detailing the rise of the new Republic and then its struggles and the rise of the First Order. Its' clear that whilst the Empire was hated the Republic didn't sweep in and take over super fast (indeed the last two films suggest that many systems are still pretty much running on their own or in alliances of their own.

 Alpharius wrote:
Also, I'm not convinced that Rey's parents are truly 'no one'...

With good reason, meta-textually. The main lesson of TLJ looking forward is that nothing in TLJ may matter at all in terms of what is important to Episode IX.

Been mulling it over, and starting to come down on the 'I don't like it' side, as broadly;

I think the uneven jumble of good bits vs bad bits imply design by a far too large committee

Choosing to embracing that whole 'this ain't yer daddys Star War son' vibe was ill judged and the critical shizz-kicking BvS / MoS took should have been a warning how badly that path can go

Too long, a good 30mins could be taken out

Going to give it another watch next week in case I was in the wrong mindset

Both have definitely had a "too many cooks in the kitchen" and design by focus group feel to me.

I've had a long think, and I think the biggest issue with the new trilogy is the time they are set at.


What Disney want is a soft reboot, a newish term for a sequel that also counts as a "restart the clock" moment. Just like Jurassic World was.

However. Disney also wanted to bring in people from the original trilogy, so you could bring along the rose tinted glasses from people's childhood.

But in doing so, they have ended up breaking people's thoughts on the original trilogy as the new ones are stamping all over it. RotJ was a good final film, it wraps everything up nicely. The good guys have won, the bad guys are dead and everyone is happy.

TFA and TLJ have pooped all over this ending. Now, if it was set 100 years post RotJ it would be a different story. You'd still have the legacy of the original trilogy and then be able to bring in new blood.


Except Disney tried to milk 2 cash cows, and it hasn't done so as well as it could.

I don't think they've "pooped" all over Return of the Jedi. Remember that film only detailed the very final battle and a general celebration in the light of the death of the Emperor. It didn't cover any of the political fallout of the fall of Imperial control or anything that came after.


Like I've said; all Disney needs is to make a film or TV series that covers that time period that leads up to the rise of the First Order (honestly that should have been the first film, but First Order was already far too developed at that stage and the Republic already breaking).

If they cover that period leading into that film then it sets things up fine. It's totally expected that trying to restore a Republic on a Galactic scale after a massive fall of the old order would indeed run the risk of being fractured and breaking. We can even see this many times over in our own history on one planet where old empires crumble. Even if they peacefully end many nations can push for independence. Just look at how the British Empire has steadily dwindled despite winning WWII [here endeth the stupidly rough analogy].

First Order, outside of its diabolical leader, might even represent some return to Imperial order and life that many might well desire to have again (one assumes that not all worlds under Imperial control had a bad lot).




I do agree that the first of the new trilogy was a bit of a mess; trying to cover way too much at the same time as trying to set things up whilst removing some older characters etc.... It tried to squeeze in too much and diluted all that it had. This second film is similar, but I think manages to squeeze it all in much better.

 Knockagh wrote:
I had deliberately stayed away from this forum until I saw the movie. Any of my friends who had watched it had loved it. I loved it. It seems this hasn’t passed into the internet world. There it is, I suppose people have different tastes. But I’m slightly sad at some comments because I really believe some people really don’t want to like the new films. I get that rogue one was awesome as it moved away from the main cast and I hope we see plenty more like that but the current trilogy needs to be made to wrap up the skywalker family story.

Star Wars isn’t my fav sci fi genre, 40k is because it’s serious, moody and desperate. Star Wars is cheesy, emotional, funny and cool. I love it for what it is. I think people are looking for 40k in Star Wars that’s not going to happen.

I don't agree. I'm not even sure where this is coming from- I can't think of anyone looking for Grim Derp in Star Wars. Generally they're looking for a coherent but simple story, and some good lines. Not finding it, they get cranky. It has very little to do with 'not wanting' to like the new films.

Though, for a few nitpicks- 'Star Wars' isn't a genre.
And neither it nor 40k are Sci-Fi. They're Space Fantasy. No pretense at science, lots of 'wizards did it.'
Nor is 40k serious- if it ever comes across that way, either you or the author(s) have messed up in some fashion.


As for the Skywalker family story- it WAS wrapped up and fully complete. It was time for the OT characters to step into mentor roles and hand over the reins, not dig them up and beat them like dead horses. Instead they've made a mess out of coherent story with a narratively satisfying end, because they didn't feel like the new characters or story were strong enough to stand on their own.
They've basically backed themselves into two choices with the skywalker legacy: either go full monster with Emo Ren, and then kill him (and the legacy) in a horrible-yet-justifiable fashion, or pull some sort of last minute hackneyed redemption arc and send him off to an island to make babies. Thus breaking ground to redo this trilogy every decade or so.

 Overread wrote:

Like I've said; all Disney needs is to make a film or TV series that covers that time period that leads up to the rise of the First Order (honestly that should have been the first film, but First Order was already far too developed at that stage and the Republic already breaking).

Already done, in books and computer games. It's bad enough that it doesn't ever need to be repeated on-screen.

Great post from William Shatner about the whole debacle.

https://twitter.com/WilliamShatner/status/946836954867318785

I liked the film enormously by though the many points raised in the last few pages stopped it from being a great film

I get the feeling that allot of the pointless side stuff an weirdness may have been an effort from Disney to appeal to the Chinese market.

My daughter (9yo) loved it and I have now got a demand for a whole pile of Lego Star Wars kits. Sigh, mission accomplished Disney, mission accomplished.

 notprop wrote:

I get the feeling that allot of the pointless side stuff an weirdness may have been an effort from Disney to appeal to the Chinese market.

Vaguely curious... why would the pointless side stuff and weirdness appeal to Chinese audiences?

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I liked it, and I think I'll probably like it more the more I think about it.

I've been the opposite. I liked it more as the credits rolled and less as time has gone on.

That said I still like it and will probably see it again when it comes out on bluray/itunes/TV/whatever.

Well, I think that no creative work can stand up to certain types of reflection and dissection (not saying that you're doing that, just that some of that is definitely going on out there with TLJ).

What I've been reflecting on is how the movie is a commentary on Luke Skywalker as a character...who also seems to represent the SW franchise as a whole. Ultimately, what Luke couldn't overcome were demands and expectations. It's an unwinnable fight. The movie even gives us an idealized Luke who seems to meet those expectations and be winning the unwinnable fight, until we're reminded that it's an impossible illusion. And in fact the effort to meet those expectations kills him, just as trying to service fans would ultimately kill the SW franchise.

Some may certainly disagree about the execution of all of this, but I think there are some actual smarts and ideas at work here. And personally I think the idea of the movie being written by committee or the studio is 180 degrees from the truth. I can clearly see the voice of the director with this film, and that stands in stark contrast to the other big franchise at Disney right now.

Sorry...I've probably rehashed ground already trod 40 pages ago. I've stayed away from all reviews and spoilers for the past couple weeks. *shrug*



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Voss wrote:

 notprop wrote:

I get the feeling that allot of the pointless side stuff an weirdness may have been an effort from Disney to appeal to the Chinese market.

Vaguely curious... why would the pointless side stuff and weirdness appeal to Chinese audiences?

Oh boy.

I can't help but find myself wondering...

If we DID have a case of having the tweaks to the plot being:

Luke is eventually inspired by Rey and agrees to train her more thoroughly than he does (but keep the various trolling aspects that were funny, eg the 'tickling').

Have the astral projection confrontation with Kylo.

Have Luke survive and recover from it.

Then go on and have Luke trying, once again, to refound the Order, while Rey "has her own battles to fight."

Essentially, make Luke the Professor Xavier of the new Star Wars series..

Surely that would have gone down better?