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 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Not that I have seen.

This is my main gripe about the game.

Two factions.

TWO.

That's... not going to hold interest for long.

Also, still not keen on calling extra models 'expansions'. Sounds very board-gamish and not really strategy gamish.

You know, I've been trying figure out what's been bothering me about FFG's marketing for the game, and I think you just nailed it, Doritos. It's a new kit, not an expansion. "Expansion" just has that context of needing to tack it on to something else in order for it to function. FFG's boardgame roots showing through, I guess. I do like that AT-ST, though. Even if this game doesn't take off in my area (and based on how rare X-wing has become around here lately, it might not), I may end up getting one of those for my shelf. I like the vehicles, but I just can't really get excited about the troops.

First - it's the Empire and the Rebellion, even after two additional trilogies those are still the two factions the vast majority of Star Wars fans care about, so of course they're FFG's opening lineup.

Second - they're called expansions because they're expansions. This is why I don't like FFG's business model and why I won't be using these models to play Legion - the miniatures as basically fancy Meeples, what you're paying for are the *cards*. X-Wing, and Legion, are basically wargame-CCG hybrids.

 EnTyme wrote:
You know, I've been trying figure out what's been bothering me about FFG's marketing for the game, and I think you just nailed it, Doritos. It's a new kit, not an expansion. "Expansion" just has that context of needing to tack it on to something else in order for it to function. FFG's boardgame roots showing through, I guess. I do like that AT-ST, though. Even if this game doesn't take off in my area (and based on how rare X-wing has become around here lately, it might not), I may end up getting one of those for my shelf. I like the vehicles, but I just can't really get excited about the troops.

Correct. "Expansion", to me implies something else. Like new rules, new ways to play the game, something to expand it beyond a few units.

It makes me think 'board game', where you get more pieces and map bits and new rules to play the game with. New missions, etc.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Not that I have seen.

This is my main gripe about the game.

Two factions.

TWO.

That's... not going to hold interest for long.

Also, still not keen on calling extra models 'expansions'. Sounds very board-gamish and not really strategy gamish.

Ah the old 'two factions' argument made against a new game, no doubt by a GW fan.
If it bothers people so much, just paint the Stormtroopers different colours.

Mind you, the two factions have done ok for the films since 1977.

I suspect they'll eventually have a scum faction as well. If it were most other IPs then I'd echo the sentiment but I don't think it'll be an issue for Star Wars miniatures in the short term. Just look at X-wing as a recent example as it was frequently sold out in the US for years despite only having two factions. Long term though I'd expect them to come out with others beyond just scum based on different eras like clone wars separatists and mandalorians.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
Ah the old 'two factions' argument made against a new game, no doubt by a GW fan.

Yes, on a forum dedicated primarily to a game created by GW. Wow, it's like stumbling across an Asian guy in China. So weird.

And GW isn't the only game with more than two factions. Infinity, Warmahordes, etc.- all of those have multiple factions.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
If it bothers people so much, just paint the Stormtroopers different colours.

"If you want to drive a Ferrari, just write 'Ferrari' on your Fiat."

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
Mind you, the two factions have done ok for the films since 1977.

A film is not a wargame.

That film has a very rich expanded universe that has generated a lot of interest since the last movie of that trilogy dropped in 1983.

Some of us also have more than one friend or partner that we play games with. I'm sure you can at least imagine what this is like.

I swear, this is why I secretly loathe Star Wars game products. I want to play, I want to enjoy it- but the defenders of the franchise can be outright hostile when defending this franchise. I used to think Trekkies were bad, but Star Wars fandoms are much more toxic.

I am not a fan of BoW but that AT-AT terrain board on the previous page is pretty awesome. I have one of those myself and I am seriously considering using it in a similar fashion to what they have done.

I'll just point out that it's not a standard Kenner At-AT but something bigger (they mentioned it in one of the recent weekenders) in case you didn't know

They mention it's a newer one than the vintage Kenner one in the video posted here. Based on the size of it compared to the figures it might be the 2010 Hasbro version that I have. If not, it's pretty close in size.

I need to check and see if the one I have wouldn't better represent an AT-ACT from Rogue One at 1/48th scale. I believe they were a bit bigger than standard AT-ATs.

Either way, it's a damn nice terrain piece and an idea worth stealing.

Are there any affordable AT-AT models around at the moment that would be in the right scale, or do you pretty much have to hunt around for older ones?

 Yodhrin wrote:
Are there any affordable AT-AT models around at the moment that would be in the right scale, or do you pretty much have to hunt around for older ones?

Older ones from what I've found. The 2010 Hasbro AT-AT is close to 1/48th scale, as I mentioned above.

None of them are cheap, however...

 Kriswall wrote:

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:
They look about the same/ a tiny bit better in terms of detail as minis in Mansions of Madness 2nd ed(which is done by FFG as well). And as much as I love MoM2ed, it's not a high praise. Mantic is ahead of the game compared to SW legion, the way I see it.
Imho, FFG are trying to make SW legion as a game suitable for both: war gamers and boardgamers. And it seems to me, CMON are far ahead in this nieche with more impressive minis (for wargamers) and no assembly required (for boardgamers)
Due to the nature of board gaming models, their quality is almost always worse compared to the evergrowing standards of the wargaming world (wyrd, GW, Mierce, Corvus Beli, CMON, even PP). And SW legion quality looks pretty much "boardgame" to me.

I own all of the Mansions of Madness 2nd Edition stuff and have seen the Legion models up close and personal at Gencon. The detail on the Legion minis is much, much better than the MoM minis. I also have a fair amount of Mantic stuff. I would characterize Mantic as below Legion quality. Mantic may have changed, but the models I've purchased have always been disappointing. Maybe it's the scale. Mantic stuff is generally smaller, so it holds less detail.

My opinion, having held the models at Gencon, is that they're below GW's newer stuff in quality, but well above board game level. I think people just need to get their hands on the models and see the quality for themselves.

34 days and counting.

Ya but considering the size of the AT ST it might not be GW newer stuff quality but it is no where near GW newer stuff prices either.... considering their comparables are at the $150 mark or more. I think I am willing to accept a slightly sub GW quality at a 1/3 the cost of GW pricing.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
Ah the old 'two factions' argument made against a new game, no doubt by a GW fan.

Yes, on a forum dedicated primarily to a game created by GW. Wow, it's like stumbling across an Asian guy in China. So weird.

And GW isn't the only game with more than two factions. Infinity, Warmahordes, etc.- all of those have multiple factions.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
If it bothers people so much, just paint the Stormtroopers different colours.

"If you want to drive a Ferrari, just write 'Ferrari' on your Fiat."

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
Mind you, the two factions have done ok for the films since 1977.

A film is not a wargame.

That film has a very rich expanded universe that has generated a lot of interest since the last movie of that trilogy dropped in 1983.

Some of us also have more than one friend or partner that we play games with. I'm sure you can at least imagine what this is like.

I swear, this is why I secretly loathe Star Wars game products. I want to play, I want to enjoy it- but the defenders of the franchise can be outright hostile when defending this franchise. I used to think Trekkies were bad, but Star Wars fandoms are much more toxic.

So you think Games Workshop's fandom isn't just as toxic? All fandoms have toxicity, especially when they feel threatened by a rival.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/269955-learn-to-play-rules-and-demo-pictures/

basic rules have more or less been posted in full now (and actually legible this time), I can't say how long these will remain up but worth looking at if you don't really know how the game works yet.

Quick reminder, it is OK to post criticisms about a miniatures gaming product line. That's squarely within the wheelhouse of a miniatures gaming discussion forum.

That said, it's always worth remembering we're only discussing toys here, after all - keep that in mind when deciding which criticisms merit what kind of response, if any.

Thanks!

JimmyWolf87 wrote:
I might get a set of Stormtroopers just to check them out but I'm really struggling to summon the interest I want to have.

There is definitely other stuff about that I'm more excited to see released (the new Fallout game for example). That being said, I can't see myself not getting a set of Stormtroopers to paint up, just because it's something I've always wanted to see.

 Pacific wrote:

JimmyWolf87 wrote:
I might get a set of Stormtroopers just to check them out but I'm really struggling to summon the interest I want to have.

There is definitely other stuff about that I'm more excited to see released (the new Fallout game for example). That being said, I can't see myself not getting a set of Stormtroopers to paint up, just because it's something I've always wanted to see.

I was excited about the new Fallout game until they announced they weren't doing a kickstarter and there all in pre order price was rediculous. (I had 300-$400 ready to spend on an all in kickstarter but when the all in was over a grand it pushed me out.) I did preorder the base game but at GW prices I will find other models for gameplay so I got to save some money there only costing around $70 for the base game which I rarely do. Fallout had my interest but now it is fully vested in Legion and the new Batman game that will be on kickstarter soon. Very expensive year indeed but it is all about finding the best bang for your buck and I think Batman might see my $. At least for 1st quarter all in around $300ish (hoping) expenditure.

I'm not sure how i feel about Legion yet. On one hand... STAR WARS mass combat game with my beloved Storm Troopers. On the other hand so far only two factions and unlike Xwing that really came into the light with the introduction of scum I still can't see 'scum' being a mass combat army. I would need to see either another army added on or a few more options to see a little variety in lists before I decide if I will truly commit or not.

As far as the scale as a wargamer just about everything gets compared to GW. They had a scale shot of the model vs whatever monstrosity GW put out and it's slightly taller and at a fraction of the cost. Yes you may say it lacks certain detail to it (it doesn't have the GW skulls on it) but it is functional. Also lets be honest there are people who just won't paint it anyway or simply see it as a playing piece and nothing more.

cerealkiller195 wrote:
I'm not sure how i feel about Legion yet. On one hand... STAR WARS mass combat game with my beloved Storm Troopers.

I'm not sure it properly qualifies as a mass battle game yet as it feels like it's a purposeful half step inbetween that and skirmish games. Skirmish games starters at 28mm typically have 5-10 models per side with maybe one larger showpiece fig whereas mass battle games typically have 20-40 per side with either a unit of larger figs and/or a much larger one. It feels like this is at the onset smack dab in the middle both in packaging and rules.

 warboss wrote:
I suspect they'll eventually have a scum faction as well. If it were most other IPs then I'd echo the sentiment but I don't think it'll be an issue for Star Wars miniatures in the short term. Just look at X-wing as a recent example as it was frequently sold out in the US for years despite only having two factions. Long term though I'd expect them to come out with others beyond just scum based on different eras like clone wars separatists and mandalorians.

In a conversation with a friend, one of the devs confirmed that both a Scum and a Droid faction would come out by mid 2019.

 warboss wrote:

cerealkiller195 wrote:
I'm not sure how i feel about Legion yet. On one hand... STAR WARS mass combat game with my beloved Storm Troopers.

I'm not sure it properly qualifies as a mass battle game yet as it feels like it's a purposeful half step inbetween that and skirmish games. Skirmish games starters at 28mm typically have 5-10 models per side with maybe one larger showpiece fig whereas mass battle games typically have 20-40 per side with either a unit of larger figs and/or a much larger one. It feels like this is at the onset smack dab in the middle both in packaging and rules.

This is definitely more of a platoon scale game with some company support thrown in.

In order to make the most of their SW miniature game license, now that they can't do as many board games for full profit due to Hasbro, they may actually try making a mass battle version. They already have the tiny vehicles and buildings sculpted for Rebellion and Armada.

Don't know if it has been posted already, but this video has decent close ups of the melted plastic, and some size comparisons. Size comparisons starting around the 19 minute mark.

/lots of thread edits/

Feel free to disgree with each other's opinions about this product line. But no more back and forth on who is being hostile/toxic. The hostility/toxicity here consists solely of calling one another hostile/toxic. So: end of. Thanks!

As to these figs. Despite being really excited at first, I'm not getting into Legion. I know I would overlook all reservations about FFG miniatures if I was more excited about SW. But my current interest in SW is at historic lows and maybe that is influencing my opinion. But I am really reminded of metal figs here, something like Knight Miniatures - not just because they are multi-part static poses but given the way some things seem to fit well and others don't.

FFG's path is selling miniatures to people who aren't primarily miniatures gamers whereas, I think, GW is focusing on making stuff that really appeals to the hobbyist impulse. For me, I'm pulling to the latter rather than the former.

As a fan of the rebel alliance I love some of the kits they have (dat t-47 airspeeder......awww yea) and a fan of FFG (I own a lot of xwing and armada) I gotta say.......pass.

I get why they're so opposed to standard dice and tape measures, they wan't everything fresh out of the box to be playable with nothing else, but seriously I can't take it any more with all these special dice for every single special game. And don't even get me started on the cards. So what if a good card for scout troopers is an equipment card from a rebel kit? Do you pay 45 dollars for the kit just for one card, or buy it on ebay for 6 bucks (one piece of 1x2" cardboard). Its heinous for a miniatures game to be set up that way.

I feel like they missed an opportunity for it to be more freeform as less restricting than it is, but as it stands they made a weird side-grade to Star Wars Assault, with less opportunities for unique models. If I got these models it would be as a display piece or some kind of diorama idk.

 Don Savik wrote:
I get why they're so opposed to standard dice and tape measures, they wan't everything fresh out of the box to be playable with nothing else, but seriously I can't take it any more with all these special dice for every single special game. And don't even get me started on the cards...

That's another issue I have. I have bad luck with cards. Don't ask me why, but they tend to go missing. Or get damaged, no matter how hard I try.

And dice, too. I don't want dice special-made for one game. It just bothers me.

 Don Savik wrote:
So what if a good card for scout troopers is an equipment card from a rebel kit?

Unless you're playing in sanctioned tournaments you just print off a list from the squad builder, like people do in every other FFG Star Wars game. The cards are just a reference for the rules with no gameplay purpose (and a proof of purchase in FFG events), any other printed reference does the job just as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
And dice, too. I don't want dice special-made for one game. It just bothers me.

That's an awfully narrow way of looking at things. Custom dice open up new mechanics that just don't work very well with standard dice. It's much easier to have custom dice with the appropriate dice than to remember if a 4 on a D6 is supposed to be a focus or a hit for this particular unit, when it might be the opposite for some other unit.

FFG is driving the whole market toward component-heavier games, creating a wider gap between "mainstream" brands and the traditional diorama-esque approach. When X-Wing came out, I was all for tokens and cards and proprietary dice but the novelty has faded. There's something clean about just dice (especially D6s) and minis, although some token content is certainly fine. Legion doesn't seem especially token heavy (for FFG) but yeah the card thing is a big minus for a lot of people.

 Peregrine wrote:
That's an awfully narrow way of looking at things. Custom dice open up new mechanics that just don't work very well with standard dice. It's much easier to have custom dice with the appropriate dice than to remember if a 4 on a D6 is supposed to be a focus or a hit for this particular unit, when it might be the opposite for some other unit.

So, perspective-

During the summer, I tend to spend a month (more or less) on vacation. Also, I tend to take my board games on deployments. REALLY easy to lose things like that, when you're moving around. And so many games don't have replacement dice, so it sucks.

 Manchu wrote:
There's something clean about just dice (especially D6s) and minis, although some token content is certainly fine.

IMO it's the exact opposite. Tokens in X-Wing are just physical notes of things that you'd have to remember in other games. Instead of having to remember that you cast the +1 BS buff on a particular unit you put a token on the unit, much like lots of 40k players already do with wound counters/status tokens/etc. That's a cleaner mechanic than having the same kind of rules but with no physical means of tracking them. And same thing with the dice. Having dice with symbols representing the outcomes directly is cleaner than rolling D6s for the same mechanic and having to look up results on a table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
And so many games don't have replacement dice, so it sucks.

This is unfortunate, but every FFG Star Wars game has replacement dice for sale. If you lose the special dice you can buy a new set of them just like buying replacement D6s.