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Hey guys, just went to a 1750pts tournament today and I thought that I'd write up some of the results in case you were interested.

My list was as follows;
Kraken Battalion
1x Hive Tyrant w/ Wings: MRC, 2x Twin-Linked Devourers, TS, AG, Chameleonic Mutation (Catalyst, The Horror)
1x Hive Tyrant w/ Wings: MRC, 2x Twin-Linked Devourers, TS, AS (Catalyst, Onslaught)
19x Genestealers: 4x Acid Maws
19x Genestealers: 4x Acid Maws
3x Ripper Swarm
3x Venomthropes

Kronos Battalion:
1x Hive Tyrant w/ Wings: 4x Twin-Linked Devourers (Catalyst, Psychic Scream)
1x Malanthrope - Warlord (Soul Hunger)
3x Ripper Swarm
3x Ripper Swarm
3x Ripper Swarm
6x Hive Guard

Match 1 - vs Astra Militarum + Adeptus Ministorum (a bit)
Scenario: A fairly standard scenario here, with an objective in the middle of each of the table corners worth one point per turn, and one in the dead centre worth two.
Opponent's List: A really fun list. The standard 6 Guard units, a few heavy weapon teams, two basilisks, and some suicide-Scions. The fun bit was three Chimeras with flamers all around, and there flamer sentinels. The flamers made it more than a gun line, and were really a perfect counted to my Genestealers. And Celestine!
Opponent's Attitude: Awesome!
Game Breakdown: I went first, moving my Genestealers and Hive Tyrants up with the Venomthropes. There was very little line of sight blocking terrain, so the Malanthrope stayed with the Hive Tyrants. I put my Rippers in deep strike, which I very quickly realised was a mistake. I could have started racking up major points from turn 1, but instead the Guardsmen got their first, meaning the Rippers couldn't deep strike near the objectives. The gene stealers killed a few guardsmen squads, but quickly got shot up, particularly by all the flamers. The Hive Tyrants soaked up a huge amount of firepower, and really tanked it out until the last turn. Celestine charged right into my lines turn 2, and quickly died. She then resurrected in the back corner behind me, but thanks to some good Hive Tyrant shooting and psychic shennanigans she was the closest target to my Hive Tyrants, which promptly squished her for good. My warlord died to some bad positioning from the suicide Scions, which also promptly died. No real loss as he had minimal psychic. The game was very close, and I could have eeked out a tie, but I stupidly shot a Sentinel sitting on an objective, instead of charging a Hive Tyrant into him, thus securing me that objective. We had to stop after turn 3 as the time ran out - the fate of people running two swarm armies.
Result: Loss, 12-13

Match 2 - vs Grey Knights
Scenario: One point for every unit in your enemy's deployment zone at the end of each turn, two if you run it off the opposite table edge. A scenario made for Kraken!
Opponent's List: Three Dreadnights, two Ass-cannon Razorbacks, two squads of Termies, Termie Warlord, three squads of Grey Knights. He started with the Termies and the Grey Knights in deep strike.
Opponent's Attitude: Super awesome! Hell of a nice guy!
Game Breakdown: My opponent went first, but didn't move forward, ensuring he was out of range for everything first turn. I then ran my Genestealers and Hive Tyrant forward. My Tyrants wiped out a Grey Knight Squad, although with no psychic success. I blew up one of his razorbacks, and my Genestealers got a lucky charge and smushed a Dreadknight. Turn two he deep strikes in all the guys, next to my Hive Guard and Warlord, who I stupidly left exposed. My Warlord gets killed, but my Hive Guard proceed to hold up two Grey Knight Squads and one Terminator squad (in combat!) for three odd turns. Unfortunately this was all in my deployment, so he was racking up the points. However, despite his amazing ability to teleport his Dreadknights around the battlefield, my deep striking the four rippers into his deployment meant that my point score really started taking off. Some lucky terrain meant I could land my Hive Tyrants around his exposed warlord (he failed his charge) meant that I could shoot and smite him to death without fear of retaliation. He conceded after turn 4. However, I neglected to appreciate that in the following two turns I could have got at least 20 more points, but I didn't report that to the organisers. I could, perhaps, then, have got a better result in the tournament overall.
Result: Win 23-10 (before concession)

Match 3 - vs Adeptus Mechanicus
Scenario: You place two objectives in your opponent's deployment, choose one in secret as a primary objective, and then two points for each secondary held at the end of the game, and five for the primary, with bonus points for extra units in your opponent's deployment.
Opponent's List: Cawl, two HQ guys, a few Rangers, 6 of those plasma vacuum cleaner robot things, and a squad of six Castellan Robots. Sorry, I'm not familiar with Ad Mech :(
Opponent's Attitude: Awesome! By his own admission he's almost exclusively a painter, and doesn't really play.
Game Breakdown: Not much to say about this one. I tabled him by turn 3. Genestealers flew up and got some nice charges, and Hive Guard took out the plasma vacuum cleaner things turn 1. His robots then cleaned up all of my Genestealers, but my Tyrants + Hive Guard then proceeded to pick apart his robots. Still a fun game, though!
Result: Win 20-0 (tabled)

Overall Result: Equal 5th out of 21

Overall Thoughts: The cool thing was that I came equal 5th with my best mate at the tournament, so that was nice. My other mate came second, but he was playing Eldar, so that neither counts as a real army, and, as an Eldar player, he doesn't even count as having a soul. Of the lists above me I know No. 1 was Drukhari, No. 2 was Alaitoc (as I said), and No. 3 was Elf Soup. Don't know what 4 was. And my mate who came equal 5th played Tau, and therefore has a soul. I had a really great time, particularly as this was my first tournament ever. After hearing some questionable things here about tournament players' attitude, I was so pleased to see everyone was just as nice as anything. Having returned to the game a year ago after a ten year break since 3rd, and having a somewhat limited usual play list, it was so nice to get to play armies that I don't usually, and particularly some that just didn't exist back when I used to play.

I was the only Tyranid player at the tournament, and so I garnered I decent level of interest, particularly from people interested in how Nids are going following the institution of the Rule of Three. Having played, and mostly lost, against my friend's Tau for practice I was beginning to regret taking Nids, but now I see that that was more a Tau issue than a Nids one (Nids just being very bad vs Tau). As for my thoughts on my list, the anti-psyker elements of my Kronos detachment, and particularly my Warlord trait just never came up; Shadows of the Warp did all the work vs Grey Knights, where this was all most in play. I think that if I were to re-build my list I would make it all Kraken. The re-rolls of 1s for the Hive Guard was not worth the more consistent -1 to hit. As for how I played, I was proud with how well I deployed, as deployment is usually my weakest point in playing. I still think I need to improve keeping things in the -1 to hit bubbles, and I need to keep my backline more safe. However, I think my use of Genestealers and particularly Hive Tyrant was on point. The Hive Tyrants particularly remained just inside smite range, but just outside counter-attack range, and only closed in for their own charge. Having been quite used to losing my Hive Tyrants in every game I played when testing this list (vs Tau and Eldar mainly), I was amazed that I only last one in all of the games I played. But then such is the nature of Tau.

Nice report. Since this is a tactics thread, I'm going to suggest a strategy for you that may have won you the game against AM.

You say that your genestealers ate a few squads, then were shot off the board. Did you consider taking a squad 'hostage'? Or even a tank hostage? If there are 2 or more units near each other, declare a charge against all but 1 unit. The unit that you don't declare a charge against will be your hostage. (especially good to do this to hellhounds so they can't fire overwatch)
During your charge move, only 1 model needs to end it's move within 1" of a unit that you charged. The rest can move in whatever direction you want, as long as they maintain coherency. For this move, you should string some genestealers (at least 3) towards your hostage unit, making sure you end your charge move more than 1" away, but close enough that a pile-in and consolidate move will get them into melee range.
Then you fight. You wipe out the squads that you charged. Meanwhile, the genestealers that are near the hostage unit, use their pile-in and consolidate to surround a single model from that unit. The goal is to prevent them from falling back. It only takes 3 models to prevent any round-base model from falling back. (4 for a hellhound or chimera vehicle). Since you didn't declare a charge against that unit, you can't fight them, and they can't remove the locked model.

Now on your opponent's turn, all those flamers are useless. During his fight phase, you can fight and kill the hostage unit. Whether it dies or not doesn't matter, the goal is to just survive another turn. With Kraken, you can fall back and do this over and over again. AM gunlines with lots of infantry are a genestealer's best friend.

If there aren't two units near enough to each other, then you can still accomplish this with Overrun and Adrenalin Surge. This is of course very expensive at 4 CP but if that's what it takes to save 19 genestealers from dying then it is worth it.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
My bad, it was changed and i didn't notice it.

In the 2017/2018 version it was like i said https://s20889.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/40K8_Grand_Tournament_Rules_Pack_FINAL.pdf

In this year's version it was modified https://s20889.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/40K8_Grand_Tournament_Rules_Pack_2018_19_1.1.pdf

Page 4 for both documents.

Indeed, now you are free to change relics every game.

No doubt, that clears up the confusion. So back to the topic, seems we can count on a good Knight player having 4++ in CC (at least in the case of solo Knights or ones that rush up field).

Edit - confused about relic/warlord traits.

Not sure why anyone would take CC invo over a huge relic gun. Even vs a CC army I'd prefer to have a relic weapon than a CC invo.

 Zimko wrote:
Nice report. Since this is a tactics thread, I'm going to suggest a strategy for you that may have won you the game against AM.

You say that your genestealers ate a few squads, then were shot off the board. Did you consider taking a squad 'hostage'? Or even a tank hostage? If there are 2 or more units near each other, declare a charge against all but 1 unit. The unit that you don't declare a charge against will be your hostage. (especially good to do this to hellhounds so they can't fire overwatch)
During your charge move, only 1 model needs to end it's move within 1" of a unit that you charged. The rest can move in whatever direction you want, as long as they maintain coherency. For this move, you should string some genestealers (at least 3) towards your hostage unit, making sure you end your charge move more than 1" away, but close enough that a pile-in and consolidate move will get them into melee range.
Then you fight. You wipe out the squads that you charged. Meanwhile, the genestealers that are near the hostage unit, use their pile-in and consolidate to surround a single model from that unit. The goal is to prevent them from falling back. It only takes 3 models to prevent any round-base model from falling back. (4 for a hellhound or chimera vehicle). Since you didn't declare a charge against that unit, you can't fight them, and they can't remove the locked model.

Now on your opponent's turn, all those flamers are useless. During his fight phase, you can fight and kill the hostage unit. Whether it dies or not doesn't matter, the goal is to just survive another turn. With Kraken, you can fall back and do this over and over again. AM gunlines with lots of infantry are a genestealer's best friend.

If there aren't two units near enough to each other, then you can still accomplish this with Overrun and Adrenalin Surge. This is of course very expensive at 4 CP but if that's what it takes to save 19 genestealers from dying then it is worth it.

Thanks for the tip! Unfortunately I didn't really have the chance to take a unit hostage, as you say, but it might have been for lack of paying attention. I will be sure to next time I play!

Also, just re: your last point, my understanding is that Overrun allows you to move as if it were the movement phase ... but this means that you can't charge. And you can't end within an inch of an enemy. This, plus the fact that Adrenaline Surge specifically says that it allows a unit to fight 'again' suggests to me that this strategy doesn't work. Loved to be proved wrong, though!

 TonyH122 wrote:

 Zimko wrote:
Nice report. Since this is a tactics thread, I'm going to suggest a strategy for you that may have won you the game against AM.

You say that your genestealers ate a few squads, then were shot off the board. Did you consider taking a squad 'hostage'? Or even a tank hostage? If there are 2 or more units near each other, declare a charge against all but 1 unit. The unit that you don't declare a charge against will be your hostage. (especially good to do this to hellhounds so they can't fire overwatch)
During your charge move, only 1 model needs to end it's move within 1" of a unit that you charged. The rest can move in whatever direction you want, as long as they maintain coherency. For this move, you should string some genestealers (at least 3) towards your hostage unit, making sure you end your charge move more than 1" away, but close enough that a pile-in and consolidate move will get them into melee range.
Then you fight. You wipe out the squads that you charged. Meanwhile, the genestealers that are near the hostage unit, use their pile-in and consolidate to surround a single model from that unit. The goal is to prevent them from falling back. It only takes 3 models to prevent any round-base model from falling back. (4 for a hellhound or chimera vehicle). Since you didn't declare a charge against that unit, you can't fight them, and they can't remove the locked model.

Now on your opponent's turn, all those flamers are useless. During his fight phase, you can fight and kill the hostage unit. Whether it dies or not doesn't matter, the goal is to just survive another turn. With Kraken, you can fall back and do this over and over again. AM gunlines with lots of infantry are a genestealer's best friend.

If there aren't two units near enough to each other, then you can still accomplish this with Overrun and Adrenalin Surge. This is of course very expensive at 4 CP but if that's what it takes to save 19 genestealers from dying then it is worth it.

Thanks for the tip! Unfortunately I didn't really have the chance to take a unit hostage, as you say, but it might have been for lack of paying attention. I will be sure to next time I play!

Also, just re: your last point, my understanding is that Overrun allows you to move as if it were the movement phase ... but this means that you can't charge. And you can't end within an inch of an enemy. This, plus the fact that Adrenaline Surge specifically says that it allows a unit to fight 'again' suggests to me that this strategy doesn't work. Loved to be proved wrong, though!

If you're using Overrun, then you fought something and killed something. And yeah, you must end the move outside of 1 inch. But Adrenaline Surge only requires that the unit fought to be used. They did fight something, so they are an eligible target. So you activate them to fight again, they pile-in 3 inches to lock something in combat... fight (probably skipping this since you most likely did not target this unit for a charge)... then consolidate another 3 inches to make sure you really surround that target, preventing them from falling back.

Well ... I wish I knew that one! Cheers mate!

 Astmeister wrote:
A Hive Tyrant with HVC and RC does 9.3 damage against a regular 5++ Knight. I did not consider the Yrmgarl Factor or Toxin Sacs.
The problem is that he will be stomped to death immediately.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With Toxin Sacs and Ymgarl Factor (using +1 A) he does 11.5 damage.

Only Toxin Sacs does 10.2

A little extension of this math. A TL Devourer averages .89 vs a knight, and a HVC averages 1.78. But if you use pathogenic slime the Devourers average 1.78.

In CC a Tyrant with RC's and TS will do about 5.13 + 0.19 for the stupid tail.

So I'm seeing about 7.10 on average without psychics.

The 1st Smite will statistically do about 1.90 which gets the total up to 9.00 If you add in a psychic scream for 1.78 you get all the way up to 10.78.


Now this might blow your mind, but let's look at a double scything talon flyrant.
We do 0 in shooting. 5.17 for the St + 0.19 for the stupid tail.
But if we use the Voratious appetite strategem we do 8.62 for the Scything Talons and 0.31 for the stupid tail for a total of 8.93 without psychics. Add in psychics for 12.61

Lets pretend we are Behemoth and use the Brute force strategem for 0.83 more. Now fight again, and you'll get a total of 21.06. That isn't all the way dead, but it's pretty freaking close if you are willing to spend 5 CP on it. Let's say that the knight does indeed kill you before you can swing again. Popping Death Frenzy will still get you 5.36 for a total of 18.80 having spent 4 instead of 5 CP. That about what you can expect from a Blood angel's hammer captain.

Old One eye can solo a knight. Swarmy too, though he has to get a bit lucky.

One tragic thing is to consider how awful a Hauruspex is vs a knight. It's going to do about 4 damage with it's attacks. If you are lucky it will do about that much again when it dies to the knight's attacks. That is worse than a squad of 28 Hormagants with Toxin Sacs (same price) which do 4.23 unsaved wounds to the knight have a few strategems that let them do more, and don't die to the knight in a single round of combat

I personally like behemoth a lot and have been using it, and will use it more, the Tyrant for Behemoth "can" be a Behemoth

tag8833 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Astmeister wrote:
A Hive Tyrant with HVC and RC does 9.3 damage against a regular 5++ Knight. I did not consider the Yrmgarl Factor or Toxin Sacs.
The problem is that he will be stomped to death immediately.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With Toxin Sacs and Ymgarl Factor (using +1 A) he does 11.5 damage.

Only Toxin Sacs does 10.2

A little extension of this math. A TL Devourer averages .89 vs a knight, and a HVC averages 1.78. But if you use pathogenic slime the Devourers average 1.78.

In CC a Tyrant with RC's and TS will do about 5.13 + 0.19 for the stupid tail.

So I'm seeing about 7.10 on average without psychics.

The 1st Smite will statistically do about 1.90 which gets the total up to 9.00 If you add in a psychic scream for 1.78 you get all the way up to 10.78.


Now this might blow your mind, but let's look at a double scything talon flyrant.
We do 0 in shooting. 5.17 for the St + 0.19 for the stupid tail.
But if we use the Voratious appetite strategem we do 8.62 for the Scything Talons and 0.31 for the stupid tail for a total of 8.93 without psychics. Add in psychics for 12.61

Lets pretend we are Behemoth and use the Brute force strategem for 0.83 more. Now fight again, and you'll get a total of 21.06. That isn't all the way dead, but it's pretty freaking close if you are willing to spend 5 CP on it. Let's say that the knight does indeed kill you before you can swing again. Popping Death Frenzy will still get you 5.36 for a total of 18.80 having spent 4 instead of 5 CP. That about what you can expect from a Blood angel's hammer captain.

Old One eye can solo a knight. Swarmy too, though he has to get a bit lucky.

One tragic thing is to consider how awful a Hauruspex is vs a knight. It's going to do about 4 damage with it's attacks. If you are lucky it will do about that much again when it dies to the knight's attacks. That is worse than a squad of 28 Hormagants with Toxin Sacs (same price) which do 4.23 unsaved wounds to the knight have a few strategems that let them do more, and don't die to the knight in a single round of combat

Very nice.
The Tyrant is still very expensive and can just reliably charge in 2nd turn. I would rather use 8 Aberrants with Hammers for this job. They kill a Knight!

But 8 of them is the same cost of a Tyrant............ Might as well get Hive Guard if you want to kill it on turn 2. At least with Hive Guard and other support you will kill it turn 1.

How does a reaper of obliterax + hvc and adrenal glands HT stack up to knights? I really like the swarmlord but feel that may be a better return on investment.

8 Abberants with Hammers do the following damage against a regular knight without Inv in the fight phase:

regular
16

with primus
21.3

with primus and might from beyond
32

with might from beyond
24

And that does not take into account that GSC will soon get a codex with stratagems like "fight twice".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The obliterax HT with TS just does 3.7 damage btw.

A single Castellan in a detachment of it's own with points always held to Rotate Ion Shields, is the most common and currently most powerful showing of IK in the meta, and is what we should be running calcs against as a baseline.

Amishprn86 wrote:But 8 of them is the same cost of a Tyrant............ Might as well get Hive Guard if you want to kill it on turn 2. At least with Hive Guard and other support you will kill it turn 1.

Not sure how you got these numbers.

6 HG = 12 shots
SMA = 24 shots
3+ to hit + reroll 1's = 18.66 hits
S8 to T8 = 9.33 wounds
2 Damage per wound = 18.66 wounds
4++ Invul = 9.33 wounds a turn

And that's at the cost of 2 CP a turn for double shooting. These things have 28 wounds. Hive Guard are going to need a LOT of other support to drop a Knight in a turn (like, it would take a total of 30 Hive Guard AND Single Minded Annihilation to only JUST do this, probably more to do it consistently).

Astmeister wrote:8 Abberants with Hammers do the following damage against a regular knight without Inv in the fight phase:

regular
16

with primus
21.3

with primus and might from beyond
32

with might from beyond
24

I think you really probably should factor in Sanctuary. It's one thing to think maybe Knights would prefer a different relic vs a mixed army, but anyone who doesn't take Sanctuary vs an army with a full squad of Aberrants waiting in ambush with a magus and a primus, is just wilding out and I doubt anyone will ever do it twice lol.

If they don't have an Invul you can use Aberrants for turn 1 ambush and sink a Knight before it can do anything, which I think will be great vs multiple Knights especially if they can't screen them well. And you can always hold them till the screen is down. They'll die the next turn but they'll have made their points back I think. I'm definitely going to be playtesting Abberants, but I'm still putting together my GSC detachment for now.

Astmeister wrote:And that does not take into account that GSC will soon get a codex with stratagems like "fight twice".

Confirmation on that? Also, remember that the Knight gets to fight back before you can fight for a second time, so if they are getting this stratagem, that second fight is going to be a lot weaker...

Okay.
Hammerants vs Sanctuary (5++)

regular
10.67

might from beyond
16

Might and primus
21.3

primus
14

 Astmeister wrote:
Okay.
Hammerants vs Sanctuary (5++)

regular
10.67

might from beyond
16

Might and primus
21.3

primus
14

They will Rotate Ion Shields on them for the same reason that they took the Sanctuary to begin with (4++).

And like I said shockguard is your best bet.

8 Shockguard vs 4++ Knight

8 damage

SMA
16 damage

SMA + Kronos
18.67 damage


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In the case of rotating ion shield with sanctuary, I think that the knight is nigh unkillable in one turn.

 Astmeister wrote:
And like I said shockguard is your best bet.

8 Shockguard vs 4++ Knight

8 damage

SMA
16 damage

SMA + Kronos
18.67 damage


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In the case of rotating ion shield with sanctuary, I think that the knight is nigh unkillable in one turn.

Your post just said Hive Guard so I didn't think you were talking about ShockGuard. I think at 24" range and requiring LOS it's much harder to apply this reliably and is basically a suicide unit at best, that has to start on the board too. They definitely hit hard, but they might not even be that great in application, especially when you consider all the other match ups where they are not going to be able to make their points back over the course of a game like Hive Guard do. Just my thoughts.

 SHUPPET wrote:
A single Castellan in a detachment of it's own with points always held to Rotate Ion Shields, is the most common and currently most powerful showing of IK in the meta, and is what we should be running calcs against as a baseline.

Amishprn86 wrote:But 8 of them is the same cost of a Tyrant............ Might as well get Hive Guard if you want to kill it on turn 2. At least with Hive Guard and other support you will kill it turn 1.

Not sure how you got these numbers.

6 HG = 12 shots
SMA = 24 shots
3+ to hit + reroll 1's = 18.66 hits
S8 to T8 = 9.33 wounds
2 Damage per wound = 18.66 wounds
4++ Invul = 9.33 wounds a turn

And that's at the cost of 2 CP a turn for double shooting. These things have 28 wounds. Hive Guard are going to need a LOT of other support to drop a Knight in a turn (like, it would take a total of 30 Hive Guard AND Single Minded Annihilation to only JUST do this, probably more to do it consistently).

Astmeister wrote:8 Abberants with Hammers do the following damage against a regular knight without Inv in the fight phase:

regular
16

with primus
21.3

with primus and might from beyond
32

with might from beyond
24

I think you really probably should factor in Sanctuary. It's one thing to think maybe Knights would prefer a different relic vs a mixed army, but anyone who doesn't take Sanctuary vs an army with a full squad of Aberrants waiting in ambush with a magus and a primus, is just wilding out and I doubt anyone will ever do it twice lol.

If they don't have an Invul you can use Aberrants for turn 1 ambush and sink a Knight before it can do anything, which I think will be great vs multiple Knights especially if they can't screen them well. And you can always hold them till the screen is down. They'll die the next turn but they'll have made their points back I think. I'm definitely going to be playtesting Abberants, but I'm still putting together my GSC detachment for now.

Astmeister wrote:And that does not take into account that GSC will soon get a codex with stratagems like "fight twice".

Confirmation on that? Also, remember that the Knight gets to fight back before you can fight for a second time, so if they are getting this stratagem, that second fight is going to be a lot weaker...

I think you missed my point, my point is for the same cost you can take out large amount of wounds vs Knights on turn 1 where the same points in melee units wont even touch the knight, giving other units in our army, you "could" take it down turn 1 much more reliably than Abberants.

And to add, if you deal 20 wounds turn 1, at least you have a 100% chance to kill it turn 2.

They only make sense with a Tyrannocyte or Jormungandr delivering them I guess. Since they are not very expensive, they will probably make their points back against most armies with vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FIY

Trygon with Yrmgarl Factor (+1S), Toxin Sacs and Voracious Appetite vs Knight with 4++ in melee

7.99 damage




Automatically Appended Next Post:
If the knight does not have a Inv in melee he will suffer 13.2 damage!




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Did someone see this interesting horde army from Wargames Con?

That's like the 4th time I've seen a different take of this list of hordes plus 3x 4 Zoanthropes in tournament. Guess there must be something to it. I don't have the models to build it but I guess if you block people in with weight of bodies you can just repeatedly hit them with the psychic nuke stratagem?

BoLS has a writeup about how the list works. In principle I think the normal Smites are better with the Zoanthropes, since they are doing 2D3 each for a total of 6D3.

Yep its the Normal Horde nids list that has been around for a bit.

The odd thing is he went full Tgants even with Kraken, most i;ve seen had 2 Battalions; Kronos with Neurothrope, Malanthrope, Zoands, and Kraken with Hgants and Neurothropes.

I think i personally like full Kronos if going full Tgants, tho i understand he wanted to move them fast with the better movements, but IDK what would actually be better.


Its just Horde to protect characters, take bjectives and not die, and Smite/GSC to kill the few important units, as powers dont care about character rule and invuls.

It all depends on the missions. In ITC, that list won't do much except get 2 points a turn for holding objectives and occasionally a point for killing something. In book missions or missions where holding objectives i worth more than killing, it'll do great.

 SHUPPET wrote:
That's like the 4th time I've seen a different take of this list of hordes plus 3x 4 Zoanthropes in tournament. Guess there must be something to it. I don't have the models to build it but I guess if you block people in with weight of bodies you can just repeatedly hit them with the psychic nuke stratagem?

Zoanthropes are a natural fit in a swarm list for synapse coverage as they are a very unappealing target for anti-tank weapons and a very appealing target for high rate of fire weapons, so they add to threat saturation instead of diluting it. Smite itself also lends itself well to horde play, since it can target foes in melee they can't use your swarms against you to hide.

The problem with Zoanthropes is that Neurothropes are better.

Zoanthropes need a price reduction to be competitive with Neurothropes.

 Zimko wrote:
It all depends on the missions. In ITC, that list won't do much except get 2 points a turn for holding objectives and occasionally a point for killing something. In book missions or missions where holding objectives i worth more than killing, it'll do great.

And yet that list is clearly of ITC, or he wouldn't have those x19 gants.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With 6x smites, don't they hit a wall with the smite beta rules?

Spoletta wrote:

 Zimko wrote:
It all depends on the missions. In ITC, that list won't do much except get 2 points a turn for holding objectives and occasionally a point for killing something. In book missions or missions where holding objectives i worth more than killing, it'll do great.

And yet that list is clearly of ITC, or he wouldn't have those x19 gants.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With 6x smites, don't they hit a wall with the smite beta rules?

The Zoans will try to use the stratagem to do 3D3 MW's to X amount of units, then the 2-3 Smites, after that, then yes they will, but they also have Psychic Scream, Catalyst, Horror, etc.. they are not just casting 6 smites each turn.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 Zimko wrote:
It all depends on the missions. In ITC, that list won't do much except get 2 points a turn for holding objectives and occasionally a point for killing something. In book missions or missions where holding objectives i worth more than killing, it'll do great.

And yet that list is clearly of ITC, or he wouldn't have those x19 gants.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With 6x smites, don't they hit a wall with the smite beta rules?

The Zoans will try to use the stratagem to do 3D3 MW's to X amount of units, then the 2-3 Smites, after that, then yes they will, but they also have Psychic Scream, Catalyst, Horror, etc.. they are not just casting 6 smites each turn.

Doesn't the stratagem stop them from casting?

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 Zimko wrote:
It all depends on the missions. In ITC, that list won't do much except get 2 points a turn for holding objectives and occasionally a point for killing something. In book missions or missions where holding objectives i worth more than killing, it'll do great.

And yet that list is clearly of ITC, or he wouldn't have those x19 gants.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With 6x smites, don't they hit a wall with the smite beta rules?

The Zoans will try to use the stratagem to do 3D3 MW's to X amount of units, then the 2-3 Smites, after that, then yes they will, but they also have Psychic Scream, Catalyst, Horror, etc.. they are not just casting 6 smites each turn.

Problem is that both zoans and neuros cast 2 powers but know only one, so they indeed smite each turn. I didn't count the stratagem though.

They streamed that list twice. The most interesting thing watching him play was that the gants were on movement trays, and he didn't seem to be measuring them before moving. Just sort of eyeballing it. Had he gone 1st against Nick he would have stood a better chance, though with Nick's endless psychics, and shoot twice / move twice / fight twice gimmicks, I'm not sure he wins even them. It seems like the only counter to nick's army is a shooting army going 1st and killing the shining spears. If you can counter his psychics you've got him too, but realistically that probably isn't going to happen. It feels like he casts 20-30 psychic powers per turn, and he so rarely fails any.