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2019/06/04 15:16:28
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Ah, the fight twice thing might have changed in the April FAQ, rather than the update that just came out. My bad.
Anyway, it was fairly commonly played that as the stratagem is used at the end of the fight phase, no additional units could become available to fight after using it. That's no longer the case.
2019/06/07 12:52:13
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
I'm painting up a new Tyranid List. I know they're supposed to be in a rough spot, but it's now or never. Want to aim for a decent hard list. I'm roughly looking at:
Ist this a good list to get used to their playstyle and be reasonable beefy? I probably would upgrade the list with Hive tyrants and Hive guard or a genesteaer cults dettachement.
Also....does the swarmlord allow the genestealers to advance in the shooting phase even if they're not within range of anyone to shoot?
Cheers mates.
2019/06/10 16:53:59
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Well your list isn't bad at 1000 points because most armies wont have the long range firepower at that level to kill all your genestealers turn 1.
However, unless your turn one is REALLY effective, your be left with just your HQ's after turn 2 and you'll be playing Kill team with your remaining models.
JOIN MY CRUSADE and gain 4000 RT points!
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2019/06/10 17:05:54
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
I just painted my Broodlord so i would like to include him. However I could interchange the swarmlord into a hive tyrant with wings and twin linked devours, to gain at least some firepower and add the genestealers up to 2 x 20.
2019/06/10 22:44:34
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
If you setup Genestealers in infestation nodes, are they in reserves? For instance, can they arrive on turn 1? Do they count against you for the number of units you can deploy into reserves?
2019/06/17 16:35:49
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Amishprn86 wrote: They are in reserves yes. They must come in turn 2 and counts as your reinforcements.
So even in friendly casual games, there isn't really a way to make use of this ability, right? At least not without a house rule.
For match play, not narrative or open, your friendly games can just be open play and then you dont need to follow many of the rules, like Rule of three, no DSing turn one. more than 3 detachments, etc...
I just posted this in General "Units I love but don't see played" and thought it might be something that could be reprised in this fourm:
Tyranid Warriors
At first glance for their points they seem ok almost good but they are such generalists they don't shine at anything. They are only really good if you don't have the other things that are better and that's sad.
Warriors are a troop that provides synapse and have fairly baseline shooting and slightly above average melee for min 20ppm. With (edited)3 wounds and a 4+ sv you would think they were fairly resilent but they fall into an unfortunate slot of being weak to all guns. High ROF low str guns and high Str high damage guns it dosent mattrer everything works well/is efficent against them. With their 4+ sv they fail more than pass. As for synapse most of our HQ's have it and are protected as characters and are more efficent.
for that matter The Warrior Prime HQ (which is our cheapest HQ choice) has synapse which is rudendent as he wants to be near warriors who already have it.
As for better units as troops:
Genestealers are wayy faster and much more killy in melee for less.
Rippers are super cheap troops and can DS and are also very eazy to hide from LOS
Termigaunts with Divs are much more efficent at shooting point for point and again are also troops.
Even Hormagaunts are faster and can swarm with 6" pile in and trap enemies.
All of which need synapse but our HQ's cover that more efficently.
Nerothropes are characters and psykers as well as synapse and have a 3++ so as long as there is chaff you will almost never loose synapse.
Malanthropes give out our handy -1 to hit shroud as well as synapse and are also characters.
For elite shooting/Firepower
For similar pts a unit of 6 hive guard vs 9 Warriors not only out shoots/damages nearly any target but can do it from behind LOS blocking protecting it from most retaliation.
Our big gun bugs again outshoot most targets for similar price points.
This all aside there are some builds that can work for Warriors but they won't likely win anything competitive.
I see only 2 solutions and the first (most likely) is a pts cost decrease. This would make them more efficent but is a very slippery slope as even a 2point reduction could make them too good in certin situations and suddenly they are in the same bracket as many space marines with dbl the wounds and the marine players would cry.
The second solution is to change them functionally some way to make them "super" in a limited way.
I think that the old index shrikes should be given a nod by adding a wing option to all "warrior" types (inc Prime) for 5ppm giving them a 8" move and the fly KW. Also I'd like to remove synapse from them and insted give them the Psychic resonator ability from the Sporocyst. This would allow you to reduce their base pts by 2-3 without them being too OP.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/18 14:15:54
2019/06/18 14:10:08
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Tyran wrote: Warriors are good if you spam them in casual games. As they are decent at everything, you have an army that can pretty much do everything.
But this is exactly what I mean. They are "good" for casual but they just are a liability in any competitive list I build. They need someting more to be able to compete.
2019/06/19 01:09:22
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Tyran wrote: Warriors are good if you spam them in casual games. As they are decent at everything, you have an army that can pretty much do everything.
But this is exactly what I mean. They are "good" for casual but they just are a liability in any competitive list I build. They need someting more to be able to compete.
Well do you only play competitive games? And with competitive I mean tournament level with all the nonsense that involves?
By that standard 99% of all units in the game are subpar.
2019/06/19 13:13:54
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
I am wanting to get back into Tyranids after many years. I have both Primaris Marines and Chaos Marines armirs now, but I wanna get back to my roots. I played 'nids way back in '02, and have never really lost my love for them. I have 1 Hive Tyrant I built and painted, and now I want to buy the spearhead box and 2 start collecting boxes. I know this list will not be optimal, but it seems fun. Are MCs any good in this edition? Will this be even a slightly usable list?
1500 points
Hive Fleet Behemoth Battalion - 8CP
HQ:
Broodlord - Power: Catalyst
Broodlord - Power: The Horror
"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion
DR:80SGMB--I--Pw40k01#-D++++A+/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
2019/06/19 19:43:34
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Well, it looks like a fun list. If you are running Behemoth take a look at good ole Hormagaunts. You can smash them into a unit with a strat and do some work, then have them bleed acid all over the foe later. If you are running "lots o'stealers"(tm) Kraken usually does better with the speed boost. But as long as your local meta allows build stuff you enjoy running. You can always add some Stealer cults as brood brothers if you need something "extra". Good luck, and welcome to the Hive Mind!
The will of the hive is always the same: HUNGER
2019/06/20 11:05:23
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Hey all looking at some input for my horde/melee list. Im not looking to spam specific units. Do you think itll hold up in the game? Also im at a loss for traits and hive fleet what do you think?
Timeshadow wrote: I just posted this in General "Units I love but don't see played" and thought it might be something that could be reprised in this fourm:
Tyranid Warriors
At first glance for their points they seem ok almost good but they are such generalists they don't shine at anything. They are only really good if you don't have the other things that are better and that's sad.
Warriors are a troop that provides synapse and have fairly baseline shooting and slightly above average melee for min 20ppm. With (edited)3 wounds and a 4+ sv you would think they were fairly resilent but they fall into an unfortunate slot of being weak to all guns. High ROF low str guns and high Str high damage guns it dosent mattrer everything works well/is efficent against them. With their 4+ sv they fail more than pass. As for synapse most of our HQ's have it and are protected as characters and are more efficent. for that matter The Warrior Prime HQ (which is our cheapest HQ choice) has synapse which is rudendent as he wants to be near warriors who already have it.
As for better units as troops:
Genestealers are wayy faster and much more killy in melee for less.
Rippers are super cheap troops and can DS and are also very eazy to hide from LOS
Termigaunts with Divs are much more efficent at shooting point for point and again are also troops.
Even Hormagaunts are faster and can swarm with 6" pile in and trap enemies.
All of which need synapse but our HQ's cover that more efficently.
Nerothropes are characters and psykers as well as synapse and have a 3++ so as long as there is chaff you will almost never loose synapse.
Malanthropes give out our handy -1 to hit shroud as well as synapse and are also characters.
For elite shooting/Firepower
For similar pts a unit of 6 hive guard vs 9 Warriors not only out shoots/damages nearly any target but can do it from behind LOS blocking protecting it from most retaliation.
Our big gun bugs again outshoot most targets for similar price points.
This all aside there are some builds that can work for Warriors but they won't likely win anything competitive.
I see only 2 solutions and the first (most likely) is a pts cost decrease. This would make them more efficent but is a very slippery slope as even a 2point reduction could make them too good in certin situations and suddenly they are in the same bracket as many space marines with dbl the wounds and the marine players would cry.
The second solution is to change them functionally some way to make them "super" in a limited way.
I think that the old index shrikes should be given a nod by adding a wing option to all "warrior" types (inc Prime) for 5ppm giving them a 8" move and the fly KW. Also I'd like to remove synapse from them and insted give them the Psychic resonator ability from the Sporocyst. This would allow you to reduce their base pts by 2-3 without them being too OP.
Not saying that warriors and the top competitive tyranid choice, but you can't say "this unit is not good because everything it does someone does it better". That is true for almost every unit in the game, you are either an ultraspecialized elite unit that does one and only one thing, or you can repeat that analysis for it with the same results.
Actually, i'm quite sure that i could do it even for ultra dedicated units like hive guards. Warriors are not a problem because they do not excel at something. Knights don't do it either, there are units that shoot or melee better for those points. They are good because they are a nice package of shooting assault mobility and durability, but for the points they are outclassed in each of those aspects. Warriors are not competitive because they don't synergize a lot with the other typical elements of the swarm. They are not swarmy, they are not ultra aggressive, they do not provide backline fire support, they are not psyonic. To work well, they have to be in a list based around warriors, which while fun and semi competitive, it is not our most efficient list. As you correctly said, they are already "good" for the cost, so you can't really decrease the cost or you risk a fine mess.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/20 17:01:39
2019/06/20 18:08:23
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
pinecone77 wrote: Well, it looks like a fun list. If you are running Behemoth take a look at good ole Hormagaunts. You can smash them into a unit with a strat and do some work, then have them bleed acid all over the foe later. If you are running "lots o'stealers"(tm) Kraken usually does better with the speed boost. But as long as your local meta allows build stuff you enjoy running. You can always add some Stealer cults as brood brothers if you need something "extra". Good luck, and welcome to the Hive Mind!
I might just move the two adrenal glands Trygons into the Spearhead and make the all 'stealer for Kraken, while keeping the big bugs Behemoth.
"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion
DR:80SGMB--I--Pw40k01#-D++++A+/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
2019/06/21 00:49:06
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Timeshadow wrote: I just posted this in General "Units I love but don't see played" and thought it might be something that could be reprised in this fourm:
Tyranid Warriors
At first glance for their points they seem ok almost good but they are such generalists they don't shine at anything. They are only really good if you don't have the other things that are better and that's sad.
Warriors are a troop that provides synapse and have fairly baseline shooting and slightly above average melee for min 20ppm. With (edited)3 wounds and a 4+ sv you would think they were fairly resilent but they fall into an unfortunate slot of being weak to all guns. High ROF low str guns and high Str high damage guns it dosent mattrer everything works well/is efficent against them. With their 4+ sv they fail more than pass. As for synapse most of our HQ's have it and are protected as characters and are more efficent.
for that matter The Warrior Prime HQ (which is our cheapest HQ choice) has synapse which is rudendent as he wants to be near warriors who already have it.
As for better units as troops:
Genestealers are wayy faster and much more killy in melee for less.
Rippers are super cheap troops and can DS and are also very eazy to hide from LOS
Termigaunts with Divs are much more efficent at shooting point for point and again are also troops.
Even Hormagaunts are faster and can swarm with 6" pile in and trap enemies.
All of which need synapse but our HQ's cover that more efficently.
Nerothropes are characters and psykers as well as synapse and have a 3++ so as long as there is chaff you will almost never loose synapse.
Malanthropes give out our handy -1 to hit shroud as well as synapse and are also characters.
For elite shooting/Firepower
For similar pts a unit of 6 hive guard vs 9 Warriors not only out shoots/damages nearly any target but can do it from behind LOS blocking protecting it from most retaliation.
Our big gun bugs again outshoot most targets for similar price points.
This all aside there are some builds that can work for Warriors but they won't likely win anything competitive.
I see only 2 solutions and the first (most likely) is a pts cost decrease. This would make them more efficent but is a very slippery slope as even a 2point reduction could make them too good in certin situations and suddenly they are in the same bracket as many space marines with dbl the wounds and the marine players would cry.
The second solution is to change them functionally some way to make them "super" in a limited way.
I think that the old index shrikes should be given a nod by adding a wing option to all "warrior" types (inc Prime) for 5ppm giving them a 8" move and the fly KW. Also I'd like to remove synapse from them and insted give them the Psychic resonator ability from the Sporocyst. This would allow you to reduce their base pts by 2-3 without them being too OP.
Not saying that warriors and the top competitive tyranid choice, but you can't say "this unit is not good because everything it does someone does it better". That is true for almost every unit in the game, you are either an ultraspecialized elite unit that does one and only one thing, or you can repeat that analysis for it with the same results.
Actually, i'm quite sure that i could do it even for ultra dedicated units like hive guards.
Warriors are not a problem because they do not excel at something. Knights don't do it either, there are units that shoot or melee better for those points. They are good because they are a nice package of shooting assault mobility and durability, but for the points they are outclassed in each of those aspects.
Warriors are not competitive because they don't synergize a lot with the other typical elements of the swarm. They are not swarmy, they are not ultra aggressive, they do not provide backline fire support, they are not psyonic. To work well, they have to be in a list based around warriors, which while fun and semi competitive, it is not our most efficient list.
As you correctly said, they are already "good" for the cost, so you can't really decrease the cost or you risk a fine mess.
The main issue I have with warriors is I want to see more of them. I'd like an incentive to take them currently they do an ok job but we have other tools that do it better. Even in non competitive lists I don't see warriors nearly enough. I agree that lowering their points is not the answer. I'd rather see them go up in points but gain some other ability like giving reroll 1's to hit or wound or 6+FNP within 6" or something. Make them the force multplyer that they should be.
PS: maby a healing effect (Like an apothicary) on non synapse creatures within 6" to represent them forceing their mininions to ignore grevous injuries and get back into the fight.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/21 00:53:05
2019/06/21 05:08:26
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Timeshadow wrote: I'd rather see them go up in points but gain some other ability like giving reroll 1's to hit or wound or 6+FNP within 6" or something.
Actually they already give 6+++ to units around in leviathan. Warriors are fine. I have won some local tournaments with list based around 2 per 9 leviathan warriors squads.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/21 05:08:53
2019/06/21 05:55:04
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Timeshadow wrote: I'd rather see them go up in points but gain some other ability like giving reroll 1's to hit or wound or 6+FNP within 6" or something.
Actually they already give 6+++ to units around in leviathan. Warriors are fine. I have won some local tournaments with list based around 2 per 9 leviathan warriors squads.
That list works reasonably well, but you are basing your list on warriors like i said.
He is saying that he wants more of a reason to sprinkle a bit of warriors here and there. Guess we tyranid players are really spoiled, we are not satisfied to have 5 troops and all of them usable, we want them to be usable the way we like it
I guess that i never tried deploying 1 or 2 minimum 60 point squads. They help with synapse and can do some contesting/shadowing in the later turns. They are still 12 bolter shots rerolling ones after all, not something that you can 100% ignore. Maybe just a venom cannon per squad...
2019/06/21 06:43:08
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
pinecone77 wrote: Well, it looks like a fun list. If you are running Behemoth take a look at good ole Hormagaunts. You can smash them into a unit with a strat and do some work, then have them bleed acid all over the foe later. If you are running "lots o'stealers"(tm) Kraken usually does better with the speed boost. But as long as your local meta allows build stuff you enjoy running. You can always add some Stealer cults as brood brothers if you need something "extra". Good luck, and welcome to the Hive Mind!
I might just move the two adrenal glands Trygons into the Spearhead and make the all 'stealer for Kraken, while keeping the big bugs Behemoth.
I am new to 'Nids and building a quite similair army to this myself. Most times I will use one detachment instead of two (fewer points games). Which is preferable for a mixed list: Kraken or Behemoth?
OOE can bring unbelievable output -- once in a while. He's very fragile and needs to be carefully screened.
Using the fight twice stratagem, he recently solo'd a Knight Castellan at a tournament. The look on the Knight player's face was one of complete and utter shock!
However, I won't claim he'll reliably do that; but it's a lot of attacks and I prefer flat 3 damage to d6 damage every day of the week...
He really loves being Kraken, and having Onslaught available, as he's not particularly quick.
Metabolic overdrive is very, very good for him turn 1 if you won't be able to charge with him (which is most games -- he's a turn 2 model, unlike the genestealers).
Speaking of which, I find he works very well with genestealer lists; the stealers are in the opponent's face turn 1 and they force an opponent to deal with them RIGHT NOW. They can also tie up shooting units and force them to fall back and be unable to shoot; all of this helps OOE get there and hurt things.
For the greater glory of the Zoat Empire!
2019/06/24 03:00:02
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
On the charge, OOE does on average 12.3 damage to a knight with his crushing claws, if you use the re-roll wounds stratagem. Without the re-roll wounds stratagem it's about 9.3 damage.
So with a fight twice stratagem (either the standard fight twice stratagem, or the fight on death stratagem when the knight squishes him), he averages 24.6, which is enough to drop a standard knight. This doesn't include the damage from his tail weapon or the D3 mortals he might do when charging in. I haven't calculated the standard deviation on that, but it's not much of a stretch from there to roll just slightly above average, and drop a 28 wound castellan.
So yeah, he's pretty nasty. Probably the best answer to a knight within the codex. Not much else in-codex has a higher average damage than him. Toxin sac genestealers have a higher average damage output vs knights from a single unit, but they are a lot more expensive, and much more vulnerable.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/24 03:01:47
10000+
10000+
8500+
3000+
8000+
3500+ IK Plus 1x Warhound, Reaver, Warlord Titans
15k+
Beastmen 10k
"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion
If you are running Behemoth take a look at good ole Hormagaunts. 
If you are running "lots o'stealers"(
Kraken usually does better with the speed boost. 
You can always add some Stealer cults as brood brothers if you need something "extra". Good luck, and welcome to the Hive Mind! 
