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As for fixing warriors, I would raise them to 21 points each base, and give them +1 str & toughness. This would make them actually useful.

Helps againgst str 4 spam (which kills them very well atm) and slightly mitigates their crappy 4+ save.

The +1 strength should have been a thing a long time ago. We already have genestealers to handle T4 efficiently. If you want to run a fluffy elite killer Hydra warrior squad, you can at str5.

Other than Genestealers what seems to work? I'm not a fan of the models to just spam them (although like one unit is fine) so I'd like to add more than just that to my Nid lists. I like Carnifex so probably will have a good number of those.

Wayniac wrote:
Other than Genestealers what seems to work? I'm not a fan of the models to just spam them (although like one unit is fine) so I'd like to add more than just that to my Nid lists. I like Carnifex so probably will have a good number of those.

The better options of the codex
Flyrants
Swarmlord
OOE
Neurothropes
Malanthrope
Hive Guard
Genestealers
TGants
Rippers
Dakka Fex's
Mieotic Spore

Also good debate on how good but has seen lots of play and still does
Hgants
Biovores
Exocrine
Tfex Acid spray

Warriors are OK. But from my experience it is hard to push them up from dependable workhorse up to very good.

What is the best weapon to use, overall, for the Tyranofex? I really like the rupture cannon but it is so very expensive.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
What is the best weapon to use, overall, for the Tyranofex? I really like the rupture cannon but it is so very expensive.

There is no clear winner for it. It really depends on what you use for it, and what the rest of the amry is.

Rupture cannon if you need some las-cannon action. Flamer is good vs elite melee units (as they can not charge it) and flyers. Fearless gaunts are also good with the flamer for controlling opponents mopvement.

Lastly, there are some people who really enjoy the fleshborer hive. The hive stratagem + the 1 ekstar damage stratgem is a good combo for some suprice damage. It is also the cheapest option if you just wanne have a big walking tank.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
What is the best weapon to use, overall, for the Tyranofex? I really like the rupture cannon but it is so very expensive.

Acid Spray IMO, With all the 4++ on vehicles, 2 wounds before saves from a Lascannon isnt going to do much honestly, 1 will be saved, so you are looking at 1D6 damage (6 shots, 3 hits, 2 wounds) b.c he is BS 4+ auto hits are very strong, and even tho its only-1AP, most the time they have a 3+/4++ or 4+/5++ so the -1 is good enough.

Also if something like a Smash Captain is against you, they wont charge it. And he is good against Flyers, auto hitting -2 to hit Aeldari Flyers means they will be scared of it.

Note that some Smash Captains can ignore Overwatch.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Note that some Smash Captains can ignore Overwatch.

Yes that is true, Good note, sometimes it or another has the more damage, it is good to not mix them up lol.

Also a Shield captain if i remember can stop OW as well.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Note that some Smash Captains can ignore Overwatch.

Yes that is true, Good note, sometimes it or another has the more damage, it is good to not mix them up lol.

Also a Shield captain if i remember can stop OW as well.

I don't think Shield Captains can do that.

But, assuming the Shield Captain has a 3++, it takes...

7 hits
14/2 wounds
7/3 unsaved
14/3 damage

Not enough to kill it. Because, correct me if I'm wrong, Weapon Beast does NOT work in Overwatch anymore.

Edit: If the Shield Captain only has a 4++, then it'd die on average, if you're still S7. Unless he spends a CP to reroll a save or has Victor of the Blood Games...

On the topic of overwatch ignorers, beware Warp Talons. They’ve got access to +2 charge distance, now (and a full charge reroll in Khorne soup). If there’s a Raptorial Host in reserve, be very careful with your acidfex (whose double-tap does specify your shooting phase) as they can charge over your screen - I’d recommend practicing your bubble-wrapping if Chaos are in your meta.

Is there a separate thread for Kill Team? I'm thinking of picking up some bugs for KT and wanted to hear any insight.

Here you go: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/761887.page

 Verthane wrote:
OOE can bring unbelievable output -- once in a while. He's very fragile and needs to be carefully screened.

Using the fight twice stratagem, he recently solo'd a Knight Castellan at a tournament. The look on the Knight player's face was one of complete and utter shock!

However, I won't claim he'll reliably do that; but it's a lot of attacks and I prefer flat 3 damage to d6 damage every day of the week...

He really loves being Kraken, and having Onslaught available, as he's not particularly quick.

Metabolic overdrive is very, very good for him turn 1 if you won't be able to charge with him (which is most games -- he's a turn 2 model, unlike the genestealers).

Speaking of which, I find he works very well with genestealer lists; the stealers are in the opponent's face turn 1 and they force an opponent to deal with them RIGHT NOW. They can also tie up shooting units and force them to fall back and be unable to shoot; all of this helps OOE get there and hurt things.

OOE is unbelievably strong against vehicles, primaris veterans and elite models.

And also against plague bearers is not bad at all as he has a +2 to hit on a charge (this usually means a hitting on a 2+ or worst case scenario on a 3+, both cases re rolling 1s).

I am starting to include it again in my lists.

 Master Chief VF wrote:

 Verthane wrote:
OOE can bring unbelievable output -- once in a while. He's very fragile and needs to be carefully screened.

Using the fight twice stratagem, he recently solo'd a Knight Castellan at a tournament. The look on the Knight player's face was one of complete and utter shock!

However, I won't claim he'll reliably do that; but it's a lot of attacks and I prefer flat 3 damage to d6 damage every day of the week...

He really loves being Kraken, and having Onslaught available, as he's not particularly quick.

Metabolic overdrive is very, very good for him turn 1 if you won't be able to charge with him (which is most games -- he's a turn 2 model, unlike the genestealers).

Speaking of which, I find he works very well with genestealer lists; the stealers are in the opponent's face turn 1 and they force an opponent to deal with them RIGHT NOW. They can also tie up shooting units and force them to fall back and be unable to shoot; all of this helps OOE get there and hurt things.

OOE is unbelievably strong against vehicles, primaris veterans and elite models.

And also against plague bearers is not bad at all as he has a +2 to hit on a charge (this usually means a hitting on a 2+ or worst case scenario on a 3+, both cases re rolling 1s).

I am starting to include it again in my lists.

There are far better models in both Tyr (and GSC) for dealing with massed 2w "Primaris Like" models.
Can't tell you the same for vehicles but I find ludicrous that he doesn't even have a FNP like save but only a 3+

Man he is a Character, T7 and he has 9 wounds.

He is not so easy to kill.

 Master Chief VF wrote:
Man he is a Character, T7 and he has 9 wounds.

He is not so easy to kill.

Against any serious melee units he's dead weight with no Invulnerable save.
He's pure offense and zero defence, relying completely on character protection

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Master Chief VF wrote:
Man he is a Character, T7 and he has 9 wounds.

He is not so easy to kill.

Against any serious melee units he's dead weight with no Invulnerable save.
He's pure offense and zero defence, relying completely on character protection

So? Any melee threat against nids will be running away from Genestealers, keep him near them for a turn if you need to. He will be going after tanks not DP's

 Amishprn86 wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Master Chief VF wrote:
Man he is a Character, T7 and he has 9 wounds.

He is not so easy to kill.

Against any serious melee units he's dead weight with no Invulnerable save.
He's pure offense and zero defence, relying completely on character protection

So? Any melee threat against nids will be running away from Genestealers, keep him near them for a turn if you need to. He will be going after tanks not DP's

Thoroughly disagreeing here. There are much scarier melee units in other armies (especially in the Chaos faction) now that Genestealer are only "good" when dealing damage first for their cost. On the shooting side T'au and DE eat Genestealers alive with supreme S5 Shooting (and multiple overwatch) or hiding in open-topped transports with huge mobility.

We are not talking about other armies, we are talking about what we bring to the table. Other armies are pointless when saying what we can and can not bring.

If you want to say "Other armies can do it better' then dont play nids and go play those other armies.

I am already doing this. Being sincere about the lack of competitiveness of current Tyranids is the only saving grace for our 2019 CA changes. If our voice isn't going to be heard because we think that we're fine (whilst we really aren't) then it's better to loudly express our concerning feelings, even resulting somewhat repetitive.

CA 2018 brought almost nothing to us Tyranids (only Swarmlord and Broodlord were truly a lifesaver for our lists) if not lower-end scale changes that needed to be addressed differently by different margins (i.e. Many more changes affecting the unused part of the codex and hefty point decreases that didn't happen);let's not repeat the same error this time

Hey guys, sold my army and quit the hobby for good. Most of you probably don't care, but anyway, just saying bye bye.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Hey guys, sold my army and quit the hobby for good. Most of you probably don't care, but anyway, just saying bye bye.

Daaamn, dawg. What instgated that?

KurtAngle2 wrote:
I am already doing this. Being sincere about the lack of competitiveness of current Tyranids is the only saving grace for our 2019 CA changes. If our voice isn't going to be heard because we think that we're fine (whilst we really aren't) then it's better to loudly express our concerning feelings, even resulting somewhat repetitive.

CA 2018 brought almost nothing to us Tyranids (only Swarmlord and Broodlord were truly a lifesaver for our lists) if not lower-end scale changes that needed to be addressed differently by different margins (i.e. Many more changes affecting the unused part of the codex and hefty point decreases that didn't happen);let's not repeat the same error this time

What do you define by "lack of competitiveness"? Because right now tyranids are pulling decent results. Sure, we soup in GSC, but so does everyone who has access to soup.

If your "lack of competitivness" means "there are factions that perform better than us", well that is normal. Otherwise we should be expecting heavy nerfs. As far as factions (and soups) go, we are WELL above the 50% line of factions.
All the top rankings of big events in the last months had honest amounts of nid (and GSC) lists.

By the way, we can say whatever we want in here. GW takes DakkaDakka in zero consideration when it comes to balancing, and i can't say that i disagree with this decision.

KurtAngle2 wrote:
I am already doing this. Being sincere about the lack of competitiveness of current Tyranids is the only saving grace for our 2019 CA changes. If our voice isn't going to be heard because we think that we're fine (whilst we really aren't) then it's better to loudly express our concerning feelings, even resulting somewhat repetitive.

CA 2018 brought almost nothing to us Tyranids (only Swarmlord and Broodlord were truly a lifesaver for our lists) if not lower-end scale changes that needed to be addressed differently by different margins (i.e. Many more changes affecting the unused part of the codex and hefty point decreases that didn't happen);let's not repeat the same error this time

This. When our codex dropped we were top tier. Even if they had only made the rule of 3 change we would have still been top tier. Malanthropes are overpriced for a -1 shroud. Look at eldar for comparison. 120 pts should be fair. Nerf to lictor is unusable. Hiveguard are good anti tank, but we don't have any ANTI KNIGHT. We don't have a LoW. Swarmy is fair price now. Broodlords are better as are warriors, but still points changes alone arn't going to fix this. I don't think I have seen a single warrior played both before and after the update.

Everything is Genestealer, HT, swarmy, hivguard, termies, neuro for synapse,

Carnifexes are cheaper but suffer the same issue as Leman Russ, no invul save.
Tervigons while cool in theory really need to be 9 wounds for character protection.
Biovores went up, only way to really deal with knights via mortal wounds from far away.
We need a LoW that isn't Apoc scale, we are one of the only remaining armies without one.

But the main issue comes from the nerfing of stratagems and Hive fleet doctrines. Chagnes to fly, which are reverted back helped a bit. Deep strike changes was a big nerf to us since a lot of our assault armies get shot up now.

The last GT i went to had 130+ players, there were 2 pure nid players (granted a fair amount of GSC) but blah.

Spoletta wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
I am already doing this. Being sincere about the lack of competitiveness of current Tyranids is the only saving grace for our 2019 CA changes. If our voice isn't going to be heard because we think that we're fine (whilst we really aren't) then it's better to loudly express our concerning feelings, even resulting somewhat repetitive.

CA 2018 brought almost nothing to us Tyranids (only Swarmlord and Broodlord were truly a lifesaver for our lists) if not lower-end scale changes that needed to be addressed differently by different margins (i.e. Many more changes affecting the unused part of the codex and hefty point decreases that didn't happen);let's not repeat the same error this time

What do you define by "lack of competitiveness"? Because right now tyranids are pulling decent results. Sure, we soup in GSC, but so does everyone who has access to soup.

If your "lack of competitiveness" means "there are factions that perform better than us", well that is normal. Otherwise we should be expecting heavy nerfs. As far as factions (and soups) go, we are WELL above the 50% line of factions.
All the top rankings of big events in the last months had honest amounts of nid (and GSC) lists.

By the way, we can say whatever we want in here. GW takes DakkaDakka in zero consideration when it comes to balancing, and i can't say that i disagree with this decision.

Lack of competitiveness as in "out of 41 units our Codex, 10 see play at best whilst leaving 75% of the Codex COMPLETELY outclassed and hence unused". Also remember that whilst other codices might also have a low number of viable units, they have to compete alongside 7+ codices for the same role whilst Tyr faction is only comprised of Tyr and GSC (and possibly AM). Having a large number of units that does not serve a purpose when the total number or datasheets between the 2 codices is between 60 and 70 does not make a faction competitive at all.

We're merely an allied "Swarmlord + Genestealers" Detachment for GSC, nothing else matters right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dynas wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
I am already doing this. Being sincere about the lack of competitiveness of current Tyranids is the only saving grace for our 2019 CA changes. If our voice isn't going to be heard because we think that we're fine (whilst we really aren't) then it's better to loudly express our concerning feelings, even resulting somewhat repetitive.

CA 2018 brought almost nothing to us Tyranids (only Swarmlord and Broodlord were truly a lifesaver for our lists) if not lower-end scale changes that needed to be addressed differently by different margins (i.e. Many more changes affecting the unused part of the codex and hefty point decreases that didn't happen);let's not repeat the same error this time

This. When our codex dropped we were top tier. Even if they had only made the rule of 3 change we would have still been top tier. Malanthropes are overpriced for a -1 shroud. Look at eldar for comparison. 120 pts should be fair. Nerf to lictor is unusable. Hiveguard are good anti tank, but we don't have any ANTI KNIGHT. We don't have a LoW. Swarmy is fair price now. Broodlords are better as are warriors, but still points changes alone arn't going to fix this. I don't think I have seen a single warrior played both before and after the update.

Everything is Genestealer, HT, swarmy, hivguard, termies, neuro for synapse,

Carnifexes are cheaper but suffer the same issue as Leman Russ, no invul save.
Tervigons while cool in theory really need to be 9 wounds for character protection.
Biovores went up, only way to really deal with knights via mortal wounds from far away.
We need a LoW that isn't Apoc scale, we are one of the only remaining armies without one.

But the main issue comes from the nerfing of stratagems and Hive fleet doctrines. Chagnes to fly, which are reverted back helped a bit. Deep strike changes was a big nerf to us since a lot of our assault armies get shot up now.

The last GT i went to had 130+ players, there were 2 pure nid players (granted a fair amount of GSC) but blah.

Exactly this. We got repeteadly nerfed by both general FAQs AND targeted nerfs at our codex that made used units REAL TRASH and not worth it anymore (most nerfed army of 8TH if you think about it, last but not least the latest round of post FAQs that SPECIFICALLY nerfed us for no reason at all).

CA 2019 is the last deadline: if GW doesn't apply HEFTY and SUBSTANTIAL buffs to the Tyranids as whole, we had better (if you haven't done already) play GSC or wait for 9TH because we're slowly falling to Low Tier as releases go on.

I might just be playing Apoc anyways, will have to see how that works out. If i can play a 3-4k game within the same time window of a 2k, i for sure will do that. I get to play with all my models/units i like then.

Honestly I win pretty much every game I play using tyranids, not counting the friendly ones where I like to try stuff like tervigon or maybe harpy, etc.

I found my balance and is a hybrid between an aggressive list and a Gant carpet. The genestealers, broodlords, swarmlord, flyrant, hormagauts keep high the pressure dealing damages or creating impassable walls, while the termagants score objectives midfield or in my deployment zone.

And broodlords are amazing when surrounded by infantry. Even if they don't hit as hard as a Patriarch, they still have some interesting tricks under the sleeve.

Even in tournaments (unfortunately just small ones, max 20 people) worst case scenario I got a tie, or even if I go 3-0 sometimes I might get 2nd because someone is higher.

But the most important thing is that i have a lot of fun playing tyranids. Every single time!

Is amazing the stuff that your units can do if properly used, and most of the times I can easily win a game without even charging, but just creating a wall and scoring objectives.

Almost on every single game I can decide to play on killing the opponent or maybe to play on the objectives of the mission. Depending on opponent or maybe mission.

And most of the times I am not afraid of going second, but I actually prefer it.

 Master Chief VF wrote:
Honestly I win pretty much every game I play using tyranids, not counting the friendly ones where I like to try stuff like tervigon or maybe harpy, etc.

I found my balance and is a hybrid between an aggressive list and a Gant carpet. The genestealers, broodlords, swarmlord, flyrant, hormagauts keep high the pressure dealing damages or creating impassable walls, while the termagants score objectives midfield or in my deployment zone.

And broodlords are amazing when surrounded by infantry. Even if they don't hit as hard as a Patriarch, they still have some interesting tricks under the sleeve.

Even in tournaments (unfortunately just small ones, max 20 people) worst case scenario I got a tie, or even if I go 3-0 sometimes I might get 2nd because someone is higher.

But the most important thing is that i have a lot of fun playing tyranids. Every single time!

Is amazing the stuff that your units can do if properly used, and most of the times I can easily win a game without even charging, but just creating a wall and scoring objectives.

Almost on every single game I can decide to play on killing the opponent or maybe to play on the objectives of the mission. Depending on opponent or maybe mission.

And most of the times I am not afraid of going second, but I actually prefer it.

Pretty much my own experience, but going by his definitions i guess that he plays ITC.
In ITC you go ultra alpha hyper aggressive or you go home, so clearly only stealers and hive guards work.

No, I mostly play ETC but the same list I am playing is working quite well also in ITC as I have quite solid kill points (easier unit to kill is 24 Hormagaunts hit on a -1) and a good board control.

Anyway gang busters (reaper) is always a +4 for the opponent.

But in ETC is working way better than in ITC because of the maelstrom missions, as this is a list that achieve very easily almost every maelstrom card that I draw, specially now that you can discard up to 6 before the game (in ETC you write on your army list the cards discarded).

I just never bought a Malanthrope because in many tournaments I cannot use Forge World and I am lazy to change list for FW permitted or not permitted tournaments, so I always use the venomthropes...