Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured

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**Nitro Zeus**

Ty that’s a bit better I guess. I think the invuln makes up for it either way durability wise, I think the real issue is that the Hierodule just does pretty much everything better and you probably don’t want 2 Hierodules + 3 worse versions of a Hierodule w no flamer on the table. Wouldn’t be awful in some matches but I think you need a more versatile range of threats and tools because not everything is gonna be SM or Custodes or whatever

**H.B.M.C.**

Tyran wrote:
My mistake, new one is S7 T7. But it did lost 1 in WS.

I hope that this is a preview of changes to things like Trygons, which suffer horribly at T6.

**Spoletta**

Tyran wrote:
I did not realize the old Dima was T6.

My mistake, new one is S7 T7. But it did lost 1 in WS.

That's much better.

His MW ability looked quite bad with S6, but with S7 things already get scarier.

**Nitro Zeus**

Yeah, even Marines are combusting on a 50/50. Anything smaller is gonna probably lose a bunch of gribbles and anything like Plague Marines still run a significant risk of just giving up some free deaths. Not amazing ability but much better at S7.

Is there any way for us to improve strength characteristic? I know GSC has one for them I’m wondering if there’s anything in Blood of Baal or something that I’m missing. Probably not tho.

**addnid**

Nitro Zeus wrote:
Ty that’s a bit better I guess. I think the invuln makes up for it either way durability wise, I think the real issue is that the Hierodule just does pretty much everything better and you probably don’t want 2 Hierodules + 3 worse versions of a Hierodule w no flamer on the table. Wouldn’t be awful in some matches but I think you need a more versatile range of threats and tools because not everything is gonna be SM or Custodes or whatever

Hierodule will have a hard time moving around with its very big base (not as much as the hierophant but still quite hard), when the dima will jump over all obstacles with glee. Both are as good, and running one of each is fine (though not ideal because ideally, you run only toughness 7 monsters, or onlyT8 monsters, or no monster at all (or perhaps one or two small tyrants/Swarmlord which can hide)

**Tyran**

Another advantage the Dima has is that it is Fast Attack, which in general is an "empty" slot unlike the more contested HS and Elite slots.

**Nitro Zeus**

addnid wrote:
Nitro Zeus wrote:
Ty that’s a bit better I guess. I think the invuln makes up for it either way durability wise, I think the real issue is that the Hierodule just does pretty much everything better and you probably don’t want 2 Hierodules + 3 worse versions of a Hierodule w no flamer on the table. Wouldn’t be awful in some matches but I think you need a more versatile range of threats and tools because not everything is gonna be SM or Custodes or whatever

Hierodule will have a hard time moving around with its very big base (not as much as the hierophant but still quite hard), when the dima will jump over all obstacles with glee.

Yeah, Fly on the Dima makes it an interesting possibility but I just think the numbers on a dermic Hierodule are just that much better that it's worth playing around any problems with mobility. With Onslaught and Kraken strat and Swarmlord buff you can get to be Hierodule is lightning fast now anyway, with like average 46"-48" move before charging, I think he will be able to get to where he needs to get to, and both of them probably wanted to be supported with things that chew up chaff anyway. The flamer alone makes me say screw fly anyway lol and the rest of his damage output is so much heavier too. Just a beast.

**Tyran**

Nitro Zeus wrote:
addnid wrote:
Nitro Zeus wrote:
Ty that’s a bit better I guess. I think the invuln makes up for it either way durability wise, I think the real issue is that the Hierodule just does pretty much everything better and you probably don’t want 2 Hierodules + 3 worse versions of a Hierodule w no flamer on the table. Wouldn’t be awful in some matches but I think you need a more versatile range of threats and tools because not everything is gonna be SM or Custodes or whatever

Hierodule will have a hard time moving around with its very big base (not as much as the hierophant but still quite hard), when the dima will jump over all obstacles with glee.

Yeah, Fly on the Dima makes it an interesting possibility but I just think the numbers on a dermic Hierodule are just that much better that it's worth playing around any problems with mobility. With Onslaught and Kraken strat and Swarmlord buff you can get to be Hierodule is lightning fast now anyway, with like average 46"-48" move before charging, I think he will be able to get to where he needs to get to, and both of them probably wanted to be supported with things that chew up chaff anyway. The flamer alone makes me say screw fly anyway lol and the rest of his damage output is so much heavier too. Just a beast.

The last part is not true.

The Scythed Hierodule has better S (10 v 8), but both have the same A and WS and D. The Dima even has the advantage that it rerolls all hit rolls, while the Hierodule only rerolls 1s. This means Dima's damage output degrades better than the Hierodule.

The Hierodule is better at going against hard T8 targets, but the Dima is slightly better against softer targets.

In general I agree the Hierodule is better, but not "that much better".

**catbarf**

I didn't realize how similar the Dimachaeron and Scythed Hierodule are in offensive profile. On the face of it, losing the shooting attack and a bit of S and T to get an innate 5+ invuln, potential 5+ FNP, better degradation, and terrain traversal doesn't seem like a bad trade- at the very least, just having a big bug that doesn't need Dermic Symbiosis is handy.

**Grundz**

Tyran wrote:
Also the drop in durability is minor compared to the drop in cost.

Meaning point for point the Hierodule is actually more durable now.

if you filter these changes down to the smaller bugs in a manner of points per wound taken against common weapons
Possible tyranid codex becomes rather exciting with everything becoming much cheaper, or much tougher, or both

**Overread**

Grundz wrote:
Tyran wrote:
Also the drop in durability is minor compared to the drop in cost.

Meaning point for point the Hierodule is actually more durable now.

if you filter these changes down to the smaller bugs in a manner of points per wound taken against common weapons
Possible tyranid codex becomes rather exciting with everything becoming much cheaper, or much tougher, or both

So far necrons and marines got more expensive. GW's policy for 9th appears to be to reduce some of the model count for the 2K games compared to 8th. With 2K being the "default" they work toward I think they are aiming to find that sweet spot of allowing long term fans room to put hteir models on the table and new fans having a good chance of building up. It wouldn't surprise me if they start to introduce a 3K or 4K game mode between 2K and Apoc to try and give larger collections a chance on the tabletop and market whilst at the same time not making it pre-loaded with the Apoc theme which tends to start thinking about 10K and 20K per side in a battle and throwing down everything you can find.

**H.B.M.C.**

How much more expensive do you think they can make T and H Gaunts before no one ever takes them?

**Tyran**

If they give terminator armor and power swords to hormagaunts, I would gladly pay 20 points for each one XD.

But hopefully they don't go up in cost, but rather their rules are improved so they are worth it.

And at the very least we are going to get a Command Protocols equivalent.

**Eihnlazer**

I am expecting genestealers to go to 2 wounds and go up 2-3 points. So theres that.

I imagine synapse will change a bit again, mabey reducing in range but giving +1"M as well.

I fully expect our big bugs to go up in wounds and mabey a few points as well. carny's go up to 9 wounds and ol'one eye up to 11 but gets the bodyguard rule from carnies.

We already saw some weapon changes with the massive scything talons.

I expect the tervigon gets some sort of rework.

And o'l swarmlord himself will get the supreme commander treatment, loosing his 3++ in combat but only being able to loose 4 wounds per phase.

Just guess's though.

**catbarf**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
How much more expensive do you think they can make T and H Gaunts before no one ever takes them?

Back when I first started playing, Termagants were 8PPM and Hormagaunts were 10PPM.

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with paying like 6pts for a Termagant or 8pts for a Hormagaunt if they had the stats to back it up. As just totally random examples, if Synapse conveyed an FNP and Hormagaunts picked up a bonus attack, they could strike a balance between competent stats and cheap enough cost to field in hordes. These creatures are supposed to be the size and weight of adult male lions, designed purely to kill- it's about time they felt the part, as opposed to getting clubbed by Guardsmen.

**addnid**

catbarf wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
How much more expensive do you think they can make T and H Gaunts before no one ever takes them?

Back when I first started playing, Termagants were 8PPM and Hormagaunts were 10PPM.

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with paying like 6pts for a Termagant or 8pts for a Hormagaunt if they had the stats to back it up. As just totally random examples, if Synapse conveyed an FNP and Hormagaunts picked up a bonus attack, they could strike a balance between competent stats and cheap enough cost to field in hordes. These creatures are supposed to be the size and weight of adult male lions, designed purely to kill- it's about time they felt the part, as opposed to getting clubbed by Guardsmen.

Adult lions ? If so they need a new plastic kit... I have like 70 of each gaunt type, I d be bummed... I personally wish hormas could just get a green tide strat, and termas just have better synergy with tervigon. Otherwise they are fine really. Unlike our MCs

**Emicrania**

Acehilator wrote:
Outflank + SL doesn't work iirc. Cannot move again after coming in from reserves.

Shouldn't Swarmy ability override the reinforcement rules since it forgoes the shooting phase in order to move again?

**Eihnlazer**

It should, but the ruling is specifically that the unit cannot move again for the rest of the turn.

**Emicrania**

feth I really hope they change this with the new codex next year. Otherwise I will never be able to play nidzilla. My meta Is full of as mech chickens and triple tank commanders and Harlequins fusion pistols spam. Nothing can survive T1 shooting

**Acehilator**

Hardcore Nidzilla is pretty much out of the question anyways with how 9E scoring works. You can run either infantry heavy, or balanced.

New codex isn't going to change that, unless some of our monsters get the ability of "counts-as x models". And I rate the chance of that happening at very low to non-existent.

**addnid**

Which is good, because no one likes playing against skew lists where only AT weapons matter. As nids we have (comparatively) cheap gaunts which are very cost effective to hold objectives, the investment is minimal but necessary. 60 basic termas is 300 points. If the rest are monsters then you still have a nidzilla list IMHO, which looks much cooler, and works better, than a « pure » nidzilla list

**H.B.M.C.**

addnid wrote:
Which is good, because no one likes playing against skew lists where only AT weapons matter.

Like that means anything in 8th/9th, where anything can wound anything, and the most effective weapons are mid-strength mid-damage multi-shot weapons.

**Spoletta**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
addnid wrote:
Which is good, because no one likes playing against skew lists where only AT weapons matter.
Like that means anything in 8th/9th, where anything can wound anything, and the most effective weapons are mid-strength mid-damage multi-shot weapons.

True in 8th. Not so true in 9th.

The latter designs are showing that GW is clearly empowering low shot count AT weapons (melta, railguns, gauss...) while leaving multi shot weapons in the same place. This is pushing those mid strenght high shot count weapons toward anti elite duty, while reserving the AT role to heavy calibers. You can even see that they nerfed the imperial fists trait to be in line with that.

What is missing in all this, is that it would have been a nice IF it was tied to an increase in durability of the tanks/monsters, so that they would become relatively more durable against anti elite weapons while still being vulnerable to AT weapons. Instead, they kept the old durability, so now monsters/tanks suffer anti elite weapons, and simply fold against real AT. They fixed only dreads, because the -1 damage is a perfect fix for this situation.

**Tyranid Horde**

catbarf wrote:
Tyranid Horde wrote:Hope folks don't mind me posting, I'm looking for a bit of advice on how best to update my Tyranid force that I've had since I was a teenager. The last proper edition I played Tyranids was 5th edition, so I do not have many of what were considered new then.

How much work would it be to shape the list of minis below into something that would be a respectable army on the tabletop? I can see from the lists posted that I'd basically need to start from scratch as there aren't many units I have that would be considered in a list, but help is always appreciated!

1x Hive Tyrant (no wings, it's the metal/plastic hybrid)
16x Genestealers
16x Termagants
16x Hormagaunts
1x Tyranid Prime
5x Warriors
5x Ripper Swarm Bases
10x Gargoyles
2x Carnifexes
2x Hive Guard (old metal)
1x Tyrant Guard (old metal)
4x Zoanthropes (old metal)
1x Deathleaper

That's a pretty well-rounded collection and you certainly don't need to start from scratch for casual play. The only models I see there that aren't frequently used are Tyrant Guard, Gargoyles, and Deathleaper; of those Gargoyles can be used to decent effect and Lictors are very handy so Deathleaper can just be played as a normal Lictor. Everything else would do just fine as Kraken or Leviathan.

The main issue I see with this collection is really that Tyranids nowadays are 'go big or go home' with regards to unit composition, for three reasons:
-We live or die on target saturation. One Carnifex is a fire magnet for every anti-tank unit in the enemy army. 3+ Carnifexes is better. 6+ Carnifexes is great.
-Lots of our units get bonuses, both explicit and implicit, when taken in numbers. Gaunts get re-rolls, Genestealers get bonus attacks, Warriors get more mileage from the Prime aura.
-Our stratagems (and Adaptive Physiology, from Blood of Baal) are enormous force multipliers, and larger units get correspondingly greater benefit.

So: if you're taking Hormagaunts, you usually want 20-30 per unit to swamp the enemy and tie up as many units as possible. If you're taking Warriors with a Prime, some people take units of 5 to avoid Blast, but I stick to 9 to maximize the number of Venom Cannons and the effect of Adaptive Physiology. Zoanthropes are a minimum squad size of 3, but taking 6 of them plus a Neurothrope massively increases their output and durability. If you want to bring big bugs that don't have invulns (see: Carnifexes), you want at least 3 at a minimum, and the more the merrier. Hive Guard have a minimum unit size of 3 to start with, but a squad of 6 gets the most out of Single-Minded Annihilation. And so on. The only units I regularly take at minimum size are Fleshborer-armed Termagants as throwaway screening units and Ripper Swarms as objective-grabbers.

Choice of hive fleet is also very important. Kraken and Leviathan improve mobility and durability respectively, so are good 'all-rounder' traits, but Jormungandr, Kronos, Gorgon, Hydra, and Behemoth all favor very specific playstyles and so will constrain your listbuilding. Hive fleet choice might be why you're getting the impression that most of your units aren't used; competitive Tyranid lists tend to lean hard into very specific units and builds. Of the two generalists, I've found Kraken to be immensely useful in 9th, and it's useful for everything you have except Hive Guard, so I'd start there.

At the moment, the two standout units that you will see in most lists are Hive Guard and Exocrines (usually played as Kronos). Hive Guard have excellent shooting that doesn't require LOS (making them easier to protect) and can pop Single-Minded Annihilation to shoot twice for 2CP, while Exocrines have an innate shoot-twice and a profile very well suited to killing Primaris. Genestealers used to be up there and you'll still see a lot of lists based around them (usually as Kraken, with the Swarmlord as a catapult), but the points increase they got going into 9th combined with a focus on midfield objectives made them less of an auto-take.

That said, the main issue with trying to theorycraft a specific list at the moment is that a new codex is on the way, so it might not be the best idea to chase the current meta. But generally speaking, bulking out your existing units and adding a monster or two will improve the efficiency of what you already have, give you more than enough to build a casual list from, and provide flexibility for whatever the new edition brings.

On that note, pewter Tyranids show up regularly on eBay, so you shouldn't have any problems if you want to get more of the models you already have.

Happy to answer any more specific questions you have.

Thanks a million for this, you're right that now is probably not the best time to invest in following a meta list but your advice does allow me to pick a few things up. I scouted eBay the other day and managed to pick up another 30 termagants and 20 hormagaunts in a lot along with some ripper bases, spore mines a biovore and a couple of tyrant guard in a job lot. If bodyguards are the way forward as we've seen with Necrons, maybe they'll be worthwhile if a foot tyrant is somehow better than a flyrant.

Interesting point to note for me is that the big bugs don't come cheap, even on eBay. I remember back in 5th when Carnifexes skyrocketed in points, you couldn't give them away!

Keen to see what 9th brings as a codex, I'm getting the bug itch again.

**princeyg**

One tip for hive tyrants, the plastic kit is great, and if you can source a chest/abdomen from a bitz supplier you can get 2 tyrants out of one box (as the flyrant uses different lower half). I recently got hold of an armless and headless metal tyrant body, so used spare bits on a plastic sprue to make a swarmlord.

**H.B.M.C.**

Just before anyone gets their hopes up, Tyranids were left out of the Legends document that FW just published.

Guess the Shrikes are either gone for good, or we're getting plastic ones come our new Codex.

**ArikTaranis**

Anyone tried mass warriors with enhanced resilience for objective scoring?

I'm thinking of running two full broods (18 total) with deathspitters and dual boneswords, as KRAKEN.

They run forward quickly to reach objectives, firing off a decent number of shots and with some decent close combat ability, against infantry at least. They also have access to the -1 damage strat for warriors, and are of course fearless.

I know that's kind of a vague plan. They'd be supported by hormagaunts, 3 dimachaerons, and maybe a couple of other things like hiveguard. At around 30ppm depending on a few misc upgrades like venom cannons or adrenal glands, on paper that looks like good value to me.

Is there any consensus around dual boneswords vs. bonesword and lashwip? And I presume rending claws + toxin sacs are an inferior armament?

And are tyranid primes now necessary for these broods given the investment? They just seem pretty expensive to me.

**Nitro Zeus**

catbarf wrote:
I didn't realize how similar the Dimachaeron and Scythed Hierodule are in offensive profile. On the face of it, losing the shooting attack and a bit of S and T to get an innate 5+ invuln, potential 5+ FNP, better degradation, and terrain traversal doesn't seem like a bad trade- at the very least, just having a big bug that doesn't need Dermic Symbiosis is handy.

This. With the new knowledge in the past couple of pages that Dima's are S7/T7, the flying movement, the fact that they don't need an adaptation at all for 5++, the fact that they can gain a FNP, and the mortal Wound combustions at the end of fight phase, and the fact that they are hitting most things just as hard, there's a really good case for Dima's being the better pick.

However, the flip side of the coin is that being better against T8 might still just be enough to make Hierodules better, considering how little other (good) options we have for dealing with T8.

I want to say btw, that at these new price points, Scythed Hierodule is basically just a way better version of an Acid Spray Tyrannofex, and Barbed Hierodule is a better version of Hive Guard, that cover both the same roles but also add a ton of brawling potential and high toughness saturation (and make great recipients of Dermic buffs too, our best adaptation, to further improve on that). Yeah, both those units still have a few of their own merits, but you need to have a VERY good reason to be picking them over the Dule's at this point imo.

Imo, both of the Dules and the Dima are very evenly balanced and I think all have a place and there's no "right" answer. I think Scythed Hierodule is probably the most well rounded, but that doesn't necessarily make it the best pick or most efficient. If you want melee brawling I think the Dima wins out.

**addnid**

Nitro Zeus wrote:
catbarf wrote:
I didn't realize how similar the Dimachaeron and Scythed Hierodule are in offensive profile. On the face of it, losing the shooting attack and a bit of S and T to get an innate 5+ invuln, potential 5+ FNP, better degradation, and terrain traversal doesn't seem like a bad trade- at the very least, just having a big bug that doesn't need Dermic Symbiosis is handy.

I want to say btw, that at these new price points, Scythed Hierodule is basically just a way better version of an Acid Spray Tyrannofex, and Barbed Hierodule is a better version of Hive Guard, that cover both the same roles but also add a ton of brawling potential and high toughness saturation (and make great recipients of Dermic buffs too, our best adaptation, to further improve on that). Yeah, both those units still have a few of their own merits, but you need to have a VERY good reason to be picking them over the Dule's at this point imo.

Imo, both of the Dules and the Dima are very evenly balanced and I think all have a place and there's no "right" answer. I think Scythed Hierodule is probably the most well rounded, but that doesn't necessarily make it the best pick or most efficient. If you want melee brawling I think the Dima wins out.

IMHO the only constant drawback I see with our immensely improved 18wounds beasts is that you more or less need (in my meta anyway) to take a malanthrope (or venom but malanthrope seems waaay better now for MCs) to help them survive early turns. I don’t see this as a huge drawback at all, but that is another 150 points to factor in. All my next army lists are going to feature one of each dule and a dima so for me the malanthrope is auto include (54 wounds total, and 830 points to protect).
Will malanthropes be needed for just two of these big ones ? Dima can hide then move + kill + overrun back to safety on terrain heavy tables so...

Tyranofex is pointless now with scythed D, but hive guard still require very little support to function, whereas a barbed dule will IMO require a little support,

**Nitro Zeus**

I think I'd do something like this

Swarmlord
Malanthrope
Neurothrope - Resonance Barb

10x Termagants
10x Termagants
10x Termagants
10x Termagants
10x Termagants

Lictor
Lictor

Dima
Dima
Dima

Scythed Hierodule - Dermic Symbiosis
Scythed Hierodule - Dermic Symbiosis

1999pts

No real resilient scoring but whatever it's Nidzilla you need to weigh em down with big bugs. The plus side is this is gonna be extremely hard to push into, every big bug has an invul, and you can't really expect to use CC to push them off once they get stuck in, it's gonna take more than a Smash Captain or two to stop this sort of Nidzilla.

I think this is a pretty damn resilient list. Over 100 T7/T8 wounds with invuls isn't trivial for anything, and that's before the Malanthrope bubble and possibly the FNPs/Catalysts. It's also pretty mobile I think you would basically own the field with this.

I love Nidzilla, so I'd invest into this, BUT I feel like the codex is around the corner so who knows. This will be strong either way though I think.