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Right, but taken literally, Reinforcements does not allow movement for the remainder of the *turn*. So you have a conflict with Hive Commander.

Q: When I manifest the Warptime psychic power, can I select a
unit that arrived on the battlefield as reinforcements this turn?
A: Yes.

Why not just look at the faqs?


Its clear that GW intends us to be able to move in otherways after DSing if there is a way to do so.

the Reinforcement rules are stated it takes up your full "movement Phase" not movement for the remainder of the game, it even goes to say "Acts normally for the resr of the turn" aka after the movement phase.

Okay, so we have precedent to ignore the limitation on reinforcements arriving.

Next question - Did the unit that arrived from reinforcements move? It is clearly described as having NOT moved, but, "Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes".

So, I suppose that I was wrong, and you in fact CAN use Metabolic Overdrive on a unit that has arrived from reinforcements. If you are treating it as having moved, then it qualifies for the stratagem.

This is a massive, massive, massive deal. I do not think this is RAI, and if it survives the first FAQ, then we have a crazy power on our hands.

For 90/60 pts, we can drop 9 spore mines or 3 mucolids 12.1" from something like magnus. We activate metabolic overdrive and move them again, using kraken to double our advance. We need a 4+ on one of 3d6 to make it within 3" (3 would get us 3.1" away), then in the charge phase we expode for ~8 (Will probably lose a spore mine to MO) or ~6 mortal wounds to which the opponent has essentially no recourse.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Okay, so we have precedent to ignore the limitation on reinforcements arriving.

Next question - Did the unit that arrived from reinforcements move? It is clearly described as having NOT moved, but, "Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes".

So, I suppose that I was wrong, and you in fact CAN use Metabolic Overdrive on a unit that has arrived from reinforcements. If you are treating it as having moved, then it qualifies for the stratagem.

This is a massive, massive, massive deal. I do not think this is RAI, and if it survives the first FAQ, then we have a crazy power on our hands.

For 90/60 pts, we can drop 9 spore mines or 3 mucolids 12.1" from something like magnus. We activate metabolic overdrive and move them again, using kraken to double our advance. We need a 4+ on one of 3d6 to make it within 3" (3 would get us 3.1" away), then in the charge phase we expode for ~8 (Will probably lose a spore mine to MO) or ~6 mortal wounds to which the opponent has essentially no recourse.

Remember, when in doubt on the interpretation of a rule, don't take the one that favors you.

Spoletta wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Okay, so we have precedent to ignore the limitation on reinforcements arriving.

Next question - Did the unit that arrived from reinforcements move? It is clearly described as having NOT moved, but, "Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes".

So, I suppose that I was wrong, and you in fact CAN use Metabolic Overdrive on a unit that has arrived from reinforcements. If you are treating it as having moved, then it qualifies for the stratagem.

This is a massive, massive, massive deal. I do not think this is RAI, and if it survives the first FAQ, then we have a crazy power on our hands.

For 90/60 pts, we can drop 9 spore mines or 3 mucolids 12.1" from something like magnus. We activate metabolic overdrive and move them again, using kraken to double our advance. We need a 4+ on one of 3d6 to make it within 3" (3 would get us 3.1" away), then in the charge phase we expode for ~8 (Will probably lose a spore mine to MO) or ~6 mortal wounds to which the opponent has essentially no recourse.

Remember, when in doubt on the interpretation of a rule, don't take the one that favors you.

I mean, that's generally how I play, but this actually seems pretty cut and dry. The RAW without the FAQ is kind of ambiguous, but as people pointed out, swarmlord + warptime, and the FAQ, make it pretty clear that you aren't disallowed from moving again this turn. We have to treat the unit as having moved. If you say, "I can move this again" and you say, "Wait, that arrived from reserves, are you sure it moved?" and I answer anything but, "yes, it moved" then I am not treating it as if it had moved.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Okay, so we have precedent to ignore the limitation on reinforcements arriving.

Next question - Did the unit that arrived from reinforcements move? It is clearly described as having NOT moved, but, "Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes".

So, I suppose that I was wrong, and you in fact CAN use Metabolic Overdrive on a unit that has arrived from reinforcements. If you are treating it as having moved, then it qualifies for the stratagem.

This is a massive, massive, massive deal. I do not think this is RAI, and if it survives the first FAQ, then we have a crazy power on our hands.

For 90/60 pts, we can drop 9 spore mines or 3 mucolids 12.1" from something like magnus. We activate metabolic overdrive and move them again, using kraken to double our advance. We need a 4+ on one of 3d6 to make it within 3" (3 would get us 3.1" away), then in the charge phase we expode for ~8 (Will probably lose a spore mine to MO) or ~6 mortal wounds to which the opponent has essentially no recourse.

Remember, when in doubt on the interpretation of a rule, don't take the one that favors you.

I mean, that's generally how I play, but this actually seems pretty cut and dry. The RAW without the FAQ is kind of ambiguous, but as people pointed out, swarmlord + warptime, and the FAQ, make it pretty clear that you aren't disallowed from moving again this turn. We have to treat the unit as having moved. If you say, "I can move this again" and you say, "Wait, that arrived from reserves, are you sure it moved?" and I answer anything but, "yes, it moved" then I am not treating it as if it had moved.

There are too many ambiguos points there for my taste.

Metabolic drive is used "During the movement phase". Reinforcements arrive "At the end of the movement phase", this is already a red light for me. This is not MtG where you can do stuff during the end of a phase, when you declare that the movement phase is done, then that's it, you can no longer do anything that happens "During the movement phase", all those things must happen before all the "At the end of the movement phase" events. Then the stratagem also says "After moving a Tyranids unit". Saying that something counts as being moved, is far from it saying that it has moved.
If the stratagem had read "At the end of the movement phase you can move a unit again" i could see it being doable, but like this i would call the TO on anyone trying to pull this stuff.

Yeah, there is a lot of precedence in the FAQ's saying that "at the end of the movement phase" means the end. That is, no more movement phase stuff - unless you can do that stuff in other phases, like the psychic phase or shooting phase.

Instead, i would like to discuss implant attack, because that one could actually be an hidden gem.

Am i reading this right in that we don't need an unsaved wounds, but just a wound? So if i charge with my hormagaunts on 4 different units i can then pop the stratagem to inflict a MW on those units on a 2+? It seems like so, but this means that when we attack we must roll the last save separately, so that we now if the last model did save a wound or was killed by the last attack.

Spoletta wrote:
Instead, i would like to discuss implant attack, because that one could actually be an hidden gem.

Am i reading this right in that we don't need an unsaved wounds, but just a wound? So if i charge with my hormagaunts on 4 different units i can then pop the stratagem to inflict a MW on those units on a 2+? It seems like so, but this means that when we attack we must roll the last save separately, so that we now if the last model did save a wound or was killed by the last attack.

My reading was the same, though I think many people will disagree. And yeah, it will come down to whether the last wound was saved or not.

Even using it for unsaved wounds, I've used it to finish cawl and tiggy with GS. It's a very solid stratagem at only 1 pt.

Strat says wounded and not slain.

Does not say taken an unsaved wound.

RAW it works.

Very strong on stealers as if you multi-assault 4 or 5 units you could do that many mortal wounds.

Intent is probably only if they loose a wound and do not die.

Tried out the second of my Kraken/Kronos list, went very well, full victory against an Ultramarine army.

Kraken Battaillon
- Flyrant, 2 pair of Twin Devourers, Adrenal, Chameoleonic Mutation
- Flyrant, 1 pair of Twin Devourers, MST, Adrenal, Toxin Sacs
- 20 Genestealers
- 15 Genestealers
- 18 Hormagaunts

Kronos Bataillon
- Neurothrope
- Neurothrope
- 29 Termagaunts
- 3 Ripper Swarms
- 3 Ripper Swarms

Kronos Spearhead
- Malanthrope
- 6 Hive Guard, Impaler Cannons
- Exocrine
- Biovore
- Biovore
- Biovore

Full report to follow

The first list looks like a variation of the recent GT winning nid list (though with no hideable hq for the kraken detachment) so as long as you’re as good a general as the player of the original list I’m sure you’ll do fine. Looks like you’re using the malanthrope at 90 points though? He will be 140 soon. Personally I don’t like the split fleet format but obviously it worked for one guy at least.

The second list looks like that same netlist but with Swarmlord shoved in. He has no protection and no delivery method so he will die first turn against most opponents. Build your list around Swarmlord or don’t take him imo.

if your playing with enough terrain it is possible to keep swarmlord from getting shot off turn one. Just make sure to keep some rippers or something near him to stop any deep striking smites from wrecking him.

Also he is only 300 points of a 2000 point army. If your opponent manages to drop enough firepower to kill him then you wont need his double move to kill whatever it is that got him in turn.

Meiotic Spores however can use Metabolic Overdrive and deal mortal wounds in the first round without retaliation. They are deployed in the same way as Alpha Legion Infiltration Stratagem.
This is of course just valid, if you get the first game turn. But it is certainly worth the try for 3x18 points.

it is borderline broken with meiotics though. I'm wary to use it cause it will cause severe butthurt.

9 of them causes on average 17.5 mortal wounds.

It is broken, but the enemy can also use screening units to prevent it.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Sorry I did mathhammer with the index values for HVC. They're just stuck in my brain i guess.

It's 9 -2 3 not 9 -1 d3.

So against T8, 3+, it's expecting 1.78 not 0.89.

Still, would prefer the more generally useful tool. Although i could see how the HVC might have a place in a list.

Well think about it still way. If he has a 250pts t8 thing with 12 wounds and it takes 25pts to remove 1.5 wounds, thats on average of 8 HVC' for 200pts.

Also look at it in a 2nd way, a Lascannon is 25pts for 1 shot only but its D6 vs always 3, on average the HVC does more damage in the long game.

For me the HVC is highly worth it, i tend to take 2 Harpys.

For those having this discussion I thought the following numbers might prove useful.

All vs T8 3+ Firer is always BS3

Twin Devourers (12 shots):
Average Wounds: 0.89 (2/3 hit, 1/3 wound, 1/3 fail to save, 12 shots)
Probability to do 3 or more wounds: 5%

Twin Death Spitters (6 shots)
Average Wounds: 0.67 (2/3 hit, 1/3 wound, 1/2 fail to save, 6 shots)
Probability to do 3 or more wounds: 2%

Heavy Venom Cannon (d3 Shots)
Average Wounds: 1.78 (2/3 hit, 2/3 wound, 2/3 fail to save, 2 shots, 3 damage)
Probability to do 3 or more wounds: 42%

Lascannon (1 Shot)
Average Wounds: 1.29 (2/3 hit, 2/3 wound, 5/6 to save, 1 shots, 3.5 damage)
Probability to do 3 or more wounds: 25%

Against T7/3+

Devourers: Avg. W 0.89/ p3+ 5%
Death Spitters: Avg. W 1/ p3+ 6%
Heavy Venom Cannon: Avg. W 1.78/ p3+ 42%
Lascannon: Avg. W 1.29/ p3+ 25%

Against T4/3+/1W

Devourers: Avg. W 1.78/ p3+ 26%
Death Spitters: Avg. W 1.33/ p3+ 13%
Heavy Venom Cannon: Avg. W 0.75/ p3+ 0.1%
Lascannon: Avg. W 0.46/ p3+ 0%

Against T4/2+/2W

Devourers: Avg. W 0.89/ p2+ 22%
Death Spitters: Avg. W 0.89/ p2+ 22%
Heavy Venom Cannon: Avg. W 1.11/ p2+ 40%
Lascannon: Avg. W 0.74/ p2+ 30%

I changed to looking at 2+ wounds on things with 2 wounds as killing one often is what matters. Killing 3 MEQ seemed like a reasonable gauge of effectiveness too. Any other things you'd like to see these kinds of comparisons for? I think they tell us a lot more than average damage does.

That is a very good comparison, thank you.
For me this means that you should definitely take things like HVCs to hurt multi wound models.

bit disappointed devourers are better than deathspitters againgst most targets. Deathspitters really only outperform againgst T7 and T6 models I guess. I like the extra range on them, but ideally youd be in smite range anyway.

 Astmeister wrote:
That is a very good comparison, thank you.
For me this means that you should definitely take things like HVCs to hurt multi wound models.

It's certainly a solid weapon for that purpose, personally, I have smites, biovores and hive guard that I use vs hard targets, so I tend to stick to devourer tyrants (for reasons that should also be obvious from the numbers), but I can certainly see a build relying on massed HVCs as anti tank being viable.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
bit disappointed devourers are better than deathspitters againgst most targets. Deathspitters really only outperform againgst T7 and T6 models I guess. I like the extra range on them, but ideally youd be in smite range anyway.

I was surprised by that too, I had a feeling devourers were a touch better against soft targets, but the difference is much bigger than I expected.

Drager wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:
That is a very good comparison, thank you.
For me this means that you should definitely take things like HVCs to hurt multi wound models.

It's certainly a solid weapon for that purpose, personally, I have smites, biovores and hive guard that I use vs hard targets, so I tend to stick to devourer tyrants (for reasons that should also be obvious from the numbers), but I can certainly see a build relying on massed HVCs as anti tank being viable.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
bit disappointed devourers are better than deathspitters againgst most targets. Deathspitters really only outperform againgst T7 and T6 models I guess. I like the extra range on them, but ideally youd be in smite range anyway.

I was surprised by that too, I had a feeling devourers were a touch better against soft targets, but the difference is much bigger than I expected.

Now that I think about it, the Tyrannofex is certainly much better than taking multiple HVC Carnifex. It costs less than 2 Fex with HVC and does more damage to tanks.
The HVC is probably only worth it on Harpies or a Tyrant, if you want to get him some shooting weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a sidenote: Does anybody field Hive Guard with Schock Canons? I find their disadvantages to be not worth taking them. Even when coming out of a Jormungandr hole....

shock cannons are only better against T8 vehicles. Not a lot of those.

Yep Meiotic Spore Mines are broken with Kraken. 3" + 3D6 Run move two times and delete a unit or your choice (since they have Fly too) with loads of mortal wounds

 Eihnlazer wrote:
shock cannons are only better against T8 vehicles. Not a lot of those.

Shock cannons perform better than impalers on pretty much all vehicles and cost much less. Impalers strenght lies in the range, anti cover and no LOS, but for raw damage on vehicles you go shockcannons.
In particular shock cannons inflict 50% more damage on T8 3+ and 31% more on T7 3+. Points per wound they are actually better than lascannon devs.

Okay, let's apply some meta to that - Shock Cannon is great against T8 vehicles and vehicles with invulns and good against T7 vehicles. What vehicles are we facing? I main Chaos and my Land Raider seems overcosted for delivering shock troops, if you're playing me you don't need to worry about that. But my Spartan, that's another story, and I'm not convinced that SC HG would worry me all that much. I'd either go after another flank or just tank the hits to deliver my zerks. My friend likes her TH SS SW dread, and that *is* going to be rushing at you, so SC is perfect there. Leman Russ, Predators? They can do the business without getting close to the shockers.

It seems situational and perhaps not as widely useful as a T-fex.

Did lascannons get ap4 at some point and I missed it? My book says ap3.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Did lascannons get ap4 at some point and I missed it? My book says ap3.

No they are still -3

str00dles1 wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Did lascannons get ap4 at some point and I missed it? My book says ap3.

No they are still -3

Whoops! I don't really play imperial used to Dark Eldar or Nids, will fix the probabilities.

Drager wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Did lascannons get ap4 at some point and I missed it? My book says ap3.

No they are still -3

Whoops! I don't really play imperial used to Dark Eldar or Nids, will fix the probabilities.

We all make mistakes. The numbers just looked off.

The HVC is a pretty efficient weapon, and HVC+2DS carnifex are close enough to tyrannos in AT efficiency and durability per point that I think their mobility actually makes them a more attractive option.

A few more vs T8 3+:

Bioplasmic Cannon (Standing still) Average 3.56 p6 or more 26%
Rupture Cannon (Standing still) Average 6 p6 or more 33%

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

We all make mistakes. The numbers just looked off.

The HVC is a pretty efficient weapon, and HVC+2DS carnifex are close enough to tyrannos in AT efficiency and durability per point that I think their mobility actually makes them a more attractive option.

They certainly aren't bad, but they don't have the consistency OR spike damage of the stationary t-fex. The mobility might be enough to make up the difference though. I'd certainly consider either.