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Not really tournament suitable, but Pheremone Trail is still really nice in any missions that have the Sustained Assault rule in effect. Normally any units that get replaced by Sustained Assault have to walk in on their table edge, so having the option of dropping them further up the field for 1 command point is rather useful since they will be able to contribute immediately.

Overall not a bad FAQ, though it did limit a lot of the shenanigans one could do.

Quick question in between: Anyone of you guys know of any Europebased Bits Seller who sells Tyrannofex Bits?

By the by, they also updated the Grey knights psychic channeling rule so that its "Roll one extra D6 and discard the lowest" so that our deepest shadow strat doesn't completely negate it.

That sucks about pheromone trail. I ordered 2 more lictors which haven't come in yet. Going to cancel that, GW just lost a sell.

Glad they clarified they "declare a charge" on Jorm. That hurts them a bit. But not stacking cover, that really hurts.

GSC got hit with a DENY. Looks like they will be a micro-faction, kind of sucks for them.

Edit: Broodlords can't come in Infestation nodes, that sucks

Also the Metabolic overdrive/Onslaught combo is no more.

Clarity on this cannot double advance in the same phase. It says it modifies the move characteristic by the advance amount, so it appears to mean you cannot roll the Advance dice twice in the same phase. So if you roll crap, your stuck with that. Am it understanding correctly?

Edit 2: Sucks that Scything Talons of Tyran don't give rerolls of 1 even though they are sycthing talons....

So what good cheap elite choices are there?

How bad are lictors now? Are they over costed for a 4 wound model with reasonable stats & deployment options. If so, by how much?

What is that cost x2 (as you'll likely have at least one good non-lictor Elite choice.. i.e. HG). That value feels like a pretty good tax for a brigade

Brigades aren't dead. Simply the train has arrived at Hyperbole station

Razerous wrote:
So what good cheap elite choices are there?

How bad are lictors now? Are they over costed for a 3 wound model with reasonable stats & deployment options. If so, by how much?

What is that cost x2 (as you'll likely have at least one good non-lictor Elite choice.. i.e. HG). That value feels like a pretty good tax for a brigade

Brigades aren't dead. Simply the train has arrived at Hyperbole station

Cheap brigades are dead.

Lictors lost all their usefulness IMO. Probably time to rework the list.

Razerous wrote:
So what good cheap elite choices are there?

How bad are lictors now? Are they over costed for a 3 wound model with reasonable stats & deployment options. If so, by how much?

What is that cost x2 (as you'll likely have at least one good non-lictor Elite choice.. i.e. HG). That value feels like a pretty good tax for a brigade

Brigades aren't dead. Simply the train has arrived at Hyperbole station

I think you are right. Liktors are still good to unlock a Brigade and you can try to assassinate weak characters. Besides they are quite good for assaulting good shooting units and deny them their next shooting phase. If you assault a Leman Russ for example...

If the tournament allows it, 3 battalions seems much better than a brigade. Our troop and HQ options are much better than trying to cram in 3 Fast Attack and 3 Elites.

Razerous wrote:
So what good cheap elite choices are there?

Pyrovores might be worthwhile with Jormugandr for delivery (same cost as a Lictor if I recall correctly). Next cheapest is Venomthropes followed by Shock Cannon Hive Guard and Zoanthropes, then Impaler Cannon Hive Guard and then the monsters.

I'm really liking my Hive Guard, so taking 3 minimum broods might work well enough for a brigade. Would have a nice firebase if paired with Biovores in Heavy and then use a couple Spore Mine clusters or Mucolids to cover the Fast Attack (just shy of 550 points before troops and HQ).

 Dynas wrote:

GSC got hit with a DENY. Looks like they will be a micro-faction, kind of sucks for them.

It isn't the end of the world. As is GSC still has access to two highly competitive allies and they got a really nice update with chapter approved (good Relic, great stratagems, interesting warlord trait, cost reductions on a lot of weaponry). Besides, in the new year we might start seeing more model releases so their range could see an expansion when their codex drops. All the new weaponry in Necromunda is perfect fodder for the cult army to borrow from since they operate on a similar tech level as the Necromunda gangs.

 Strat_N8 wrote:

Razerous wrote:
So what good cheap elite choices are there?

Pyrovores might be worthwhile with Jormugandr for delivery (same cost as a Lictor if I recall correctly). Next cheapest is Venomthropes followed by Shock Cannon Hive Guard and Zoanthropes, then Impaler Cannon Hive Guard and then the monsters.

I'm really liking my Hive Guard, so taking 3 minimum broods might work well enough for a brigade. Would have a nice firebase if paired with Biovores in Heavy and then use a couple Spore Mine clusters or Mucolids to cover the Fast Attack (just shy of 550 points before troops and HQ).

Pyrovores are 7 points cheaper than a lictor and I've found them to be very nice in Jorm or Kraken lists. The AP-1 flamer is... fine, not great, but better than a lictor.

 Zimko wrote:
If the tournament allows it, 3 battalions seems much better than a brigade. Our troop and HQ options are much better than trying to cram in 3 Fast Attack and 3 Elites.

Umm.. the brigade is cheaper

By 6 points (by my rough calculations!).

However I think there are less dead slots in a brigade; with 3 battalions, that is more points are tied into units you must take to fill out the slots.

I.e. whilst that 711 points for a brigade includes 3x1 Biovores, you can instead field exocrines or t-fexes etc. With Battalions it is all extra points. And there will often be tournament limitations. Either non duplicating detachments or a limit of 2 seems to be cropping up.

 Zimko wrote:
If the tournament allows it, 3 battalions seems much better than a brigade. Our troop and HQ options are much better than trying to cram in 3 Fast Attack and 3 Elites.

For most factions that would be true, but our troop choices tend to be pricey (because you need large numbers per squad) and we have actual, cheap, effective Fast Attack options. Our HQ options are great but expensive as heck outside of the neurothrope.

I prefer to run Brigade if I can. I'll run two battalions if I'm crunched for points, but three generally isn't worth it.

A mind bogler I was hoping they would clearify in the FAQ. I did not see it however.

'-Charge Phase
You charge, as per rulebook

-Fight Phase
You fight, as per rulebook, and only may attack what you charged, as per rulebook

Should you kill the unit you use Overrun, as per stratagem

At the end of the phase, you use Adrenaline Surge, as per stratagem

And then you get into a new close combat'

They did not clearify if this is legal or not did they?

Edit: I don't know if the lictor is bad. It reminds me of a swarm base, only slightly more expensive. They might even also kill opponents objective grabbers. Spore mines are stil good in the fast attack to prevent opponent to deep strike.

I mean, the close I can find is this:

Q: When a unit is chosen to make a charge move and fails the
charge, do they still count as having charged? Specifically, can
a unit that has failed a charge move be chosen to pile in – and
potentially consolidate – towards the enemy?
A: A unit only counts as having charged if they made a
charge move. If a charge fails, and no models make a
charge move, they do not count as having charged. As
such, they cannot be chosen to fight in the Fight phase
(and so cannot pile in or consolidate) unless an enemy
unit moves within 1" of them.

It does not clearify a lot.

I'm playing a local tournament that has an LVO ticket as part of the prize package this weekend. I have a reasonably competitive meta, and can expect to see any of the existing power builds.

Jorgmunder Battalion
Hive Tyrant, wings, 2x deathspitter, rending claws, adrenal glands
Hive Tyrant, wings, 2x deathspitter, rending claws, adrenal glands
Hive Tyrant, wings, 2x deathspitter, rending claws, adrenal glands

26 termagants, devourers
17 stealers
3 Rippers
3 Rippers
3 Rippers

3 Raveners
3 Raveners

Kronos Spearhead
Neurothrope
Tyranofex, rupture cannon
Tyranofex, rupture cannon
Tyranofex, rupture cannon

The default plan is to reserve the 'stealers, 'gaunts, Raveners, and Tyrants.
The Kronos force sits in the backfield, absorbs fire the first turn, and opens vehicles for the deep strikers on my turn.
Reserves land, 'gaunts clear screens, Tyrants smite+shoot, and everything that has a target goes for a charge.
I expect to burn 2 CP on the Raveners pregame, 2 on the 'gaunts double tapping, which leaves me 3 for charge rerolls or potentially double fighting the 'stealers.

The Rippers get deployed to eat up space and keep deep strikers back away from the Tyranofexes.
They mostly exist to provide enough units on the table to permit everyone I want deep striking to be in reserves.
Depending on the matchup, I may infestation the 'stealers as a counter charge, or use the 'gaunts as a screen.

My default is for the warlord to be a Hive Tyrant, with the Jorgm. relic (-1 leadership bubble) and Jorgm. warlord trait (ignores cover bubble).
I can see the 'gaunts and the deathspitters getting utility out of the ignores cover bubble, and it shouldn't be that hard to drop such that I have it when I want it.
My reading of the FAQ is that if the 'stealers/Raveners fail a charge, the cover bonus from Jorgm. still applies, as they have not charged. -EDIT-I am wrong about this, I should read FAQ after morning coffee, not before-

I could shuffle the warlord Tyrant into Kronos to maximize psychic denial.
I could drop a unit of Raveners, maybe bulk up the remaining unit to 4 models, and fill in the 'gaunts and 'stealers to 30 and 19 models.
If I did that I would be trying to fit 49 models around the Raveners, which is doable but not easy, or deploying one of the two squads on the table and trying to use Catylist to keep them alive long enough to do something.
I could do something similar by turning a Tyranofex into an Exocrine, which gives me a few more 'stealers/'gaunts and reliable S7 at the cost of that sweet sweet 48" S10.

Thoughts?

The Exocrine is pretty much just better than the tyrannofex, not by much, but enough in a competitive meta.

Razerous wrote:
So what good cheap elite choices are there?

How bad are lictors now? Are they over costed for a 3 wound model with reasonable stats & deployment options. If so, by how much?

What is that cost x2 (as you'll likely have at least one good non-lictor Elite choice.. i.e. HG). That value feels like a pretty good tax for a brigade

Brigades aren't dead. Simply the train has arrived at Hyperbole station

I will double check once i'm back from work. but i remember Lictors having 4 wounds.

Spoletta wrote:

Razerous wrote:
So what good cheap elite choices are there?

How bad are lictors now? Are they over costed for a 3 wound model with reasonable stats & deployment options. If so, by how much?

What is that cost x2 (as you'll likely have at least one good non-lictor Elite choice.. i.e. HG). That value feels like a pretty good tax for a brigade

Brigades aren't dead. Simply the train has arrived at Hyperbole station

I will double check once i'm back from work. but i remember Lictors having 4 wounds.

They do indeed have 4 wounds. I'd price the Lictor at maybe 30-35 points now. Any cheaper and its too good for a brigade, more expensive and it's too rubbish to do anything. It's similar to a ripper swarm.

From the Portal GT, the 2/3 of the top tyranid lists revolved around;

Kraken
Swarmlord
Malanthrope
3x19 Genestealers
~25 Hormagaunts

Kronos
Neurothrope
2x6 Hive guard
Mawloc
Lictor

Nick N was the highest of us 3, he subbed 3 hive guard for 25 kraken gargs

I was the weird one with a brigade and no swarmlord. Dallas said he thought that he didn't feel nids could work without swarmlord. I disagree, I did not feel I lost any of my matches because of my list.

From what I understand, Dallas lost his last match to Alex Fennell running a lot of super OP AM stuff like thudd guns, shadowsword, etc. He managed to get first turn and get a GS squad into alex's army, but was then basically wiped out in one shooting phase. He mentioned that Alex made no mistakes in deployment, and that he (dallas) couldn't manage to huge any models to prevent falling back. I think our only hope against an army like that is the ability to null deploy many of our most important units, and come in for the beta strike.

This is why I think swarmlord must be in a pod and reserves based list. It is also why I do not think he is entirely required, but is absolutely viable. It also makes me question the viability of Behemoth, though I am pretty sure that increased odds of making the charge at the expense of being totally vulnerable to being locked in combat is not at all worth it. Perhaps a behemoth detachment with pods of hormagaunts?

Honestly I don't know. I don't know that my list would have fared better than Dallas vs Fennell. Without being forced to play hive guard on the board, I don't have any good, easy targets for big multi-damage weapons (Except venoms and biovores, both of which I do my best to hide and aren't exactly critical to my list). At the same time, I don't have the same long, versatile shooting that they have. My biggest advantage is that I can drop my army in from reserves and go to work there, but I'm not even remotely convinced that it would be enough. It just seems like AM is just plain ahead of the curve. There doesn't seem to be an answer anywhere, and if there is, it's most likely going to be in Chaos or Eldar.

Perhaps our flyers might be of help? They certainly have the speed to get to the foe and can move over screens with impunity. I vaguely remember reading about a successful Crone Spam list during the index and they got a bit better in the codex (doubled the number of shots on tentaclids and their spur is now a free attack).

I'm a bit surprised Devourer Termagants didn't make the list. As far as I know nothing else in the game can match them in number of shots for the cost for screen removal. Hive Guard make sense though, as anyone playing from 5th edition probably has 6-9 of them laying around.


Still, thank you for your summaries and congratulations on your placing. Nice to hear reports on what is going on at the top tables.

Drager wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Razerous wrote:
So what good cheap elite choices are there?

How bad are lictors now? Are they over costed for a 3 wound model with reasonable stats & deployment options. If so, by how much?

What is that cost x2 (as you'll likely have at least one good non-lictor Elite choice.. i.e. HG). That value feels like a pretty good tax for a brigade

Brigades aren't dead. Simply the train has arrived at Hyperbole station

I will double check once i'm back from work. but i remember Lictors having 4 wounds.

They do indeed have 4 wounds. I'd price the Lictor at maybe 30-35 points now. Any cheaper and its too good for a brigade, more expensive and it's too rubbish to do anything. It's similar to a ripper swarm.

Lictor is far superior to a ripper base. +1 wound, -1 to hit with shooting, 3+ melee, rending claws, 5+ save (+2 for cover), no instinctive behavior, and S&T 4. They come in at 45 points, which is good based off of a rippers price. Both have deep strike and 4 attacks. Lictors can kill a character and gain you CP.

What is the exact wording of The Enemy Below stratagem?

Does it require a Hive Fleet Jormungandr infantry unit to be deployed from the tunnels made from a Hive Fleet Jormungandr (Mawloc/Ravener/Trygon etc).

This Lictor change has made things tricky...

I'm guessing that, because of the 1st Q&A in the FAQ, you cannot redirect a unit coming out of tunnels as per Enemy Below using a further 1cp strat with a Lictor?

It has to be Jormungandr infantry, but can be any Ravener/Trygon.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
From the Portal GT, the 2/3 of the top tyranid lists revolved around;

Kraken
Swarmlord
Malanthrope
3x19 Genestealers
~25 Hormagaunts

Kronos
Neurothrope
2x6 Hive guard
Mawloc
Lictor

Nick N was the highest of us 3, he subbed 3 hive guard for 25 kraken gargs

I was the weird one with a brigade and no swarmlord. Dallas said he thought that he didn't feel nids could work without swarmlord. I disagree, I did not feel I lost any of my matches because of my list.

From what I understand, Dallas lost his last match to Alex Fennell running a lot of super OP AM stuff like thudd guns, shadowsword, etc. He managed to get first turn and get a GS squad into alex's army, but was then basically wiped out in one shooting phase. He mentioned that Alex made no mistakes in deployment, and that he (dallas) couldn't manage to huge any models to prevent falling back. I think our only hope against an army like that is the ability to null deploy many of our most important units, and come in for the beta strike.

This is why I think swarmlord must be in a pod and reserves based list. It is also why I do not think he is entirely required, but is absolutely viable. It also makes me question the viability of Behemoth, though I am pretty sure that increased odds of making the charge at the expense of being totally vulnerable to being locked in combat is not at all worth it. Perhaps a behemoth detachment with pods of hormagaunts?

Honestly I don't know. I don't know that my list would have fared better than Dallas vs Fennell. Without being forced to play hive guard on the board, I don't have any good, easy targets for big multi-damage weapons (Except venoms and biovores, both of which I do my best to hide and aren't exactly critical to my list). At the same time, I don't have the same long, versatile shooting that they have. My biggest advantage is that I can drop my army in from reserves and go to work there, but I'm not even remotely convinced that it would be enough. It just seems like AM is just plain ahead of the curve. There doesn't seem to be an answer anywhere, and if there is, it's most likely going to be in Chaos or Eldar.

Thanks for the tournament review. What lists/armies ended up winning Portal?

Drager wrote:
It has to be Jormungandr infantry, but can be any Ravener/Trygon.

Yes!

 Niiai wrote:
A mind bogler I was hoping they would clearify in the FAQ. I did not see it however.

'-Charge Phase
You charge, as per rulebook

-Fight Phase
You fight, as per rulebook, and only may attack what you charged, as per rulebook

Should you kill the unit you use Overrun, as per stratagem

At the end of the phase, you use Adrenaline Surge, as per stratagem

And then you get into a new close combat'

They did not clearify if this is legal or not did they?

I believe this is legal. The Adrenaline surge says you get to fight again. If the rules already state you can only fight once, but their is a stratagem that allows you to fight again as an exception to the rule. I don't have the book in front of me, but is overrun considered a charge? I see what your getting at. Perhaps the answer is to declare a multi charge in anticipation of overrunning into the next unit, of course it would need to be within 12:.

I mean, the close I can find is this:

Q: When a unit is chosen to make a charge move and fails the
charge, do they still count as having charged? Specifically, can
a unit that has failed a charge move be chosen to pile in – and
potentially consolidate – towards the enemy?
A: A unit only counts as having charged if they made a
charge move. If a charge fails, and no models make a
charge move, they do not count as having charged. As
such, they cannot be chosen to fight in the Fight phase
(and so cannot pile in or consolidate) unless an enemy
unit moves within 1" of them.

It does not clearify a lot.

This is for the Jorm Fleet. If you try and charge and fail, you count as having charged and lose your +1 cover.
The other part about not being able to pile in and consolidate is in regards to hormies, in which people would fail a charge, and still pile in 6". i personally thought this was pretty clear that you couldn't pile in, but its good to have clarity on.

I can definitely see Gargoyles being very good. Having the fly keyword and being able to assault over screens is excellent. Onslaught on those dudes + Swarmlord double move + double opportunistic advance is going to mess up a lot of gunlines

 buddha wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
From the Portal GT, the 2/3 of the top tyranid lists revolved around;

Kraken
Swarmlord
Malanthrope
3x19 Genestealers
~25 Hormagaunts

Kronos
Neurothrope
2x6 Hive guard
Mawloc
Lictor

Nick N was the highest of us 3, he subbed 3 hive guard for 25 kraken gargs

I was the weird one with a brigade and no swarmlord. Dallas said he thought that he didn't feel nids could work without swarmlord. I disagree, I did not feel I lost any of my matches because of my list.

From what I understand, Dallas lost his last match to Alex Fennell running a lot of super OP AM stuff like thudd guns, shadowsword, etc. He managed to get first turn and get a GS squad into alex's army, but was then basically wiped out in one shooting phase. He mentioned that Alex made no mistakes in deployment, and that he (dallas) couldn't manage to huge any models to prevent falling back. I think our only hope against an army like that is the ability to null deploy many of our most important units, and come in for the beta strike.

This is why I think swarmlord must be in a pod and reserves based list. It is also why I do not think he is entirely required, but is absolutely viable. It also makes me question the viability of Behemoth, though I am pretty sure that increased odds of making the charge at the expense of being totally vulnerable to being locked in combat is not at all worth it. Perhaps a behemoth detachment with pods of hormagaunts?

Honestly I don't know. I don't know that my list would have fared better than Dallas vs Fennell. Without being forced to play hive guard on the board, I don't have any good, easy targets for big multi-damage weapons (Except venoms and biovores, both of which I do my best to hide and aren't exactly critical to my list). At the same time, I don't have the same long, versatile shooting that they have. My biggest advantage is that I can drop my army in from reserves and go to work there, but I'm not even remotely convinced that it would be enough. It just seems like AM is just plain ahead of the curve. There doesn't seem to be an answer anywhere, and if there is, it's most likely going to be in Chaos or Eldar.

EDIT: I like the first part of that kraken list. Run something similar. Did they take the Tyrannocyte or tyrant guard for the Swarmlord?

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 Zimko wrote:
If the tournament allows it, 3 battalions seems much better than a brigade. Our troop and HQ options are much better than trying to cram in 3 Fast Attack and 3 Elites.

For most factions that would be true, but our troop choices tend to be pricey (because you need large numbers per squad) and we have actual, cheap, effective Fast Attack options. Our HQ options are great but expensive as heck outside of the neurothrope.

I prefer to run Brigade if I can. I'll run two battalions if I'm crunched for points, but three generally isn't worth it.

Pricey? Just use a bunch of rippers O.o

 Eihnlazer wrote:

Drager wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Razerous wrote:
So what good cheap elite choices are there?

How bad are lictors now? Are they over costed for a 3 wound model with reasonable stats & deployment options. If so, by how much?

What is that cost x2 (as you'll likely have at least one good non-lictor Elite choice.. i.e. HG). That value feels like a pretty good tax for a brigade

Brigades aren't dead. Simply the train has arrived at Hyperbole station

I will double check once i'm back from work. but i remember Lictors having 4 wounds.

They do indeed have 4 wounds. I'd price the Lictor at maybe 30-35 points now. Any cheaper and its too good for a brigade, more expensive and it's too rubbish to do anything. It's similar to a ripper swarm.

Lictor is far superior to a ripper base. +1 wound, -1 to hit with shooting, 3+ melee, rending claws, 5+ save (+2 for cover), no instinctive behavior, and S&T 4. They come in at 45 points, which is good based off of a rippers price. Both have deep strike and 4 attacks. Lictors can kill a character and gain you CP.

They have strenght 6.

Hi guys,

First post in the Nids Tactics.
But here's a contribution. At the moment it is incomplete, I will add a page for each unit in the Codex (eventually).

In short, its a Math hammer spreadsheet. There's plenty of them around but I've often found my own the easiest to use.

Feel free to make your own copy.
I've also got one for Deathguard/Chaos/Chaos FW if your interested.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1R1znhClD95pUzwwCTeLBaJsT1pbbwBDt-SzIhn0M3Qs/edit?usp=sharing


Anyway, from what I'm reading so far. It looks like a 2k Brigade seems to be somewhat lackluster. It seems like your sacrificing so much, Exo's, Warriors/Stealers (enmass) for the extra CP's.

Is it viable to run two 'better' battalions?