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mcsheehy wrote:
Hi guys,

First post in the Nids Tactics.
But here's a contribution. At the moment it is incomplete, I will add a page for each unit in the Codex (eventually).

In short, its a Math hammer spreadsheet. There's plenty of them around but I've often found my own the easiest to use.

Feel free to make your own copy.
I've also got one for Deathguard/Chaos/Chaos FW if your interested.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1R1znhClD95pUzwwCTeLBaJsT1pbbwBDt-SzIhn0M3Qs/edit?usp=sharing


Anyway, from what I'm reading so far. It looks like a 2k Brigade seems to be somewhat lackluster. It seems like your sacrificing so much, Exo's, Warriors/Stealers (enmass) for the extra CP's.

Is it viable to run two 'better' battalions?

I look at it this way. Brigades and double battalions are completely different lists. Brigades use a bit less brutal power but a lot of disruption, with gargoyles, raveners and lictors to tie up enemy shooters. Double battalion is a more frontal list.

Drager wrote:
The Exocrine is pretty much just better than the tyrannofex, not by much, but enough in a competitive meta.

I'm not sold that it is. I see the trade off as being range + potential spike damage vs. consistency. Maybe it is a local meta issue, but being able to threaten T8 first turn means a lot to me.

Can you walk me through the logic on why the Exocrine is better?

 Lance845 wrote:
Tyranid Soup tactics are fine here as long as tyranids is a major component of your force. What they are talking about is bringing at most 5 small units, most of them needed to fill out the detachment, to supplement a majority nid force. That absolutely belongs in this discussion. If it was the other way around, 3-4 Nid units to add to a GSC/AM force then take it someplace else.


On a different subject, I found a way to create a PDF form so you guys would need to fill in the information on the quick reference sheet yourself (which also makes it legal for me to post to dakka). But, here is a preview of what I have going so far.



It will be at most 2 pages (front and back of a single laminated cardstock sheet or 2 sheets if thats what you prefer) and include all wargear when it's done.

Fantastic, ready for the 2nd page so i can print mine out.

I did a test print of this, and if I may make a suggestion I think its a bit hard to read, You may need to remove the background image, as cool as it looks, but it makes some of the lines, especially the darker lines harder to read. Also, perhaps try and do outlined boxes/borders, not sure if that will help. Overall though, fantastic, cant wait to see the end result.
Any chance you can make it fillable in a pdf or line up with the tab button? That would be really really super awesome.

 Dynas wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Tyranid Soup tactics are fine here as long as tyranids is a major component of your force. What they are talking about is bringing at most 5 small units, most of them needed to fill out the detachment, to supplement a majority nid force. That absolutely belongs in this discussion. If it was the other way around, 3-4 Nid units to add to a GSC/AM force then take it someplace else.


On a different subject, I found a way to create a PDF form so you guys would need to fill in the information on the quick reference sheet yourself (which also makes it legal for me to post to dakka). But, here is a preview of what I have going so far.



It will be at most 2 pages (front and back of a single laminated cardstock sheet or 2 sheets if thats what you prefer) and include all wargear when it's done.

Fantastic, ready for the 2nd page so i can print mine out.

I did a test print of this, and if I may make a suggestion I think its a bit hard to read, You may need to remove the background image, as cool as it looks, but it makes some of the lines, especially the darker lines harder to read. Also, perhaps try and do outlined boxes/borders, not sure if that will help. Overall though, fantastic, cant wait to see the end result.
Any chance you can make it fillable in a pdf or line up with the tab button? That would be really really super awesome.

Do we have some of the old school siluet pictures? Those would be awsome to have in a faint grey behind instead of the cover photo. Less colours is easier on the eyes. Having it just blank is a bit drab.

 luke1705 wrote:
I can definitely see Gargoyles being very good. Having the fly keyword and being able to assault over screens is excellent. Onslaught on those dudes + Swarmlord double move + double opportunistic advance is going to mess up a lot of gunlines

Opp advance is on non-fly units, sadly. Which, combined with the cost, is why I stick with horms.


For everyone asking about their lists, no, they had swarmlord on foot. Most tournaments are now playing with at least 1 large LOS blocking in the middle of the board, and 1/2 in each deployment. A GS unit can move up to 40" in one turn, and still charge, with swarmlord. Even coming out of an infestation node, they can move an additional 20, so there is a lot of flexibility with placement.

I used 29 dev gants with a trygon. They were fantastic, as usual. I thought I'd miss having the second Trygon, and I kind of did, but the extra CP were critical every game.

Tomorrow I should start writing battle reports, I think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and the Battle For Salvation crew was streaming 1 table throughout the tourney. If you could find the 2nd round stream, you can probably hear me screaming obscenities about my dice fething me (I'm one of those guys who spends the whole game laughing, joking and being absurdly crude), as we were playing right next to the broadcasting area.

The overall winner was an AM/Soup list. Had like 4 hellhounds, manticores, celestine, harker, bunch of stuff. Just look for the twitch stream, they posted lists, I think.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

The overall winner was an AM/Soup list. Had like 4 hellhounds, manticores, celestine, harker, bunch of stuff. Just look for the twitch stream, they posted lists, I think.

Still legal list after CA?

So far I love having 2 Trygons. I used medobolic overdrive in a Malanthrope to give both Trygons, devgaunts and Flyrant -1 aura when they arrive. Usually there's nothing for them to charge since the devgaunts have to kill the screen. Swarmlord can also get there with double advance and use hive commander on the genestealers that the second Trygon brings. I've only had 3 games with it but it has worked nicely so far.

The flyrant also has chameleons scales for -2 to hit.

What this FAQ says though is that if you use opportunistic advance you keep the bonus also for the metabolic advance. You could potentially cover 30" with a spore mine...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What this FAQ says though is that if you use opportunistic advance you keep the bonus also for the metabolic advance. You could potentially cover 30" with a spore mine...

 N.I.B. wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

The overall winner was an AM/Soup list. Had like 4 hellhounds, manticores, celestine, harker, bunch of stuff. Just look for the twitch stream, they posted lists, I think.

Still legal list after CA?

Nah, we weren't using CA. That's why a lot of nid players still had the Mal.

I ripped the bandaid early and just sucked it up and dropped mine.

 Zimko wrote:
So far I love having 2 Trygons. I used medobolic overdrive in a Malanthrope to give both Trygons, devgaunts and Flyrant -1 aura when they arrive. Usually there's nothing for them to charge since the devgaunts have to kill the screen. Swarmlord can also get there with double advance and use hive commander on the genestealers that the second Trygon brings. I've only had 3 games with it but it has worked nicely so far.

The flyrant also has chameleons scales for -2 to hit.

My previous list was double battalion, with 2 Trygons, but this tourney didn't allow doubles of any detachment. I'll probably go back to double battalion. Trygons are glass hammers, but they are REALLY big hammers... one of them ate a Deredo, a Leviathan and put a lot of wounds on a DG DP, in one game. If you can lock down the shooting, they will run absolutely amok on things.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

 Zimko wrote:
So far I love having 2 Trygons. I used medobolic overdrive in a Malanthrope to give both Trygons, devgaunts and Flyrant -1 aura when they arrive. Usually there's nothing for them to charge since the devgaunts have to kill the screen. Swarmlord can also get there with double advance and use hive commander on the genestealers that the second Trygon brings. I've only had 3 games with it but it has worked nicely so far.

The flyrant also has chameleons scales for -2 to hit.

My previous list was double battalion, with 2 Trygons, but this tourney didn't allow doubles of any detachment. I'll probably go back to double battalion. Trygons are glass hammers, but they are REALLY big hammers... one of them ate a Deredo, a Leviathan and put a lot of wounds on a DG DP, in one game. If you can lock down the shooting, they will run absolutely amok on things.

I completely agree. Trygons, especially with -1 aura and 19 Genestealers and Flyrant and Swarmlord to deal with, are usually untouched for a turn. Last tourney I ate Bjorn with one using the reroll to wound strat. They killed a bunch of zerkers, a couple random rhinos and razorbacks. Even when degraded they still have 7 melee lascannons (with lower than lascannons strength but close enough). Jorm strat is cool and all but Im thinking of just sticking to Kraken and Trygons.

Spoletta wrote:
What this FAQ says though is that if you use opportunistic advance you keep the bonus also for the metabolic advance. You could potentially cover 30" with a spore mine...

Yep, may make big mucolid or spore mine units a thing. 2CP and 90 pts for ~9 MW, or 60 pts for ~6 MW... though with 9 spore mines you may struggle to get them all within 3" depending on the board. Probably better to use it out of deep strike, only need a 4+ on the advance, and with 3d6, that's pretty damn good odds. Hell, with a little luck you could chunk down Magnus to almost half in one go.

RIP my 3 Lictors in my list, time to take them out, now i will just have 1 for my 30man Devilgant unut.

Spoletta wrote:
What this FAQ says though is that if you use opportunistic advance you keep the bonus also for the metabolic advance. You could potentially cover 30" with a spore mine...

Spore Mines and Mucolids have the Fly rule so they can't use the Opportunistic Advance stratagem, sadly.

Well feth, can't believe I missed that. Good catch.

Totally kills the deep strike->Double move+double advance tactic.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
What this FAQ says though is that if you use opportunistic advance you keep the bonus also for the metabolic advance. You could potentially cover 30" with a spore mine...

Yep, may make big mucolid or spore mine units a thing. 2CP and 90 pts for ~9 MW, or 60 pts for ~6 MW... though with 9 spore mines you may struggle to get them all within 3" depending on the board. Probably better to use it out of deep strike, only need a 4+ on the advance, and with 3d6, that's pretty damn good odds. Hell, with a little luck you could chunk down Magnus to almost half in one go.

How exactly does that work? Both fielding normally and deep striking.. I think I'm missing a step or two here..

Razerous wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
What this FAQ says though is that if you use opportunistic advance you keep the bonus also for the metabolic advance. You could potentially cover 30" with a spore mine...

Yep, may make big mucolid or spore mine units a thing. 2CP and 90 pts for ~9 MW, or 60 pts for ~6 MW... though with 9 spore mines you may struggle to get them all within 3" depending on the board. Probably better to use it out of deep strike, only need a 4+ on the advance, and with 3d6, that's pretty damn good odds. Hell, with a little luck you could chunk down Magnus to almost half in one go.

How exactly does that work? Both fielding normally and deep striking.. I think I'm missing a step or two here..

Doesn't work, can't use opportunistic advance on units with fly.

I pointed that out earlier about gargoyles, but totally brain-farted and forgot both mines have fly.

Can still get them reasonably far by spawning them on the board and going double kraken advance with metabolic overdrive, should be 16”, good for countering aggressive lists

@ Trace - fair doos, thought it was too good to be true.

C4790M wrote:
Can still get them reasonably far by spawning them on the board and going double kraken advance with metabolic overdrive, should be 16”, good for countering aggressive lists

Lots of CP

babelfish wrote:

Drager wrote:
The Exocrine is pretty much just better than the tyrannofex, not by much, but enough in a competitive meta.

I'm not sold that it is. I see the trade off as being range + potential spike damage vs. consistency. Maybe it is a local meta issue, but being able to threaten T8 first turn means a lot to me.

Can you walk me through the logic on why the Exocrine is better?

What sells the exocrine for me personally is that unmoving, it NEVER degrades past BS 4+. (4/5/5 with plus 1). Ive shot stuff off the board turn 2 or going second with 1-3 wounds left.

The second point is that it synergizes much better with the +1 damage monster shoot stratagem. Potential plus 12 vs plus 6 at a better undamaged BS.

Range is a very real consideration. As you say it is about meta also. Assuming in range and los, Rupture Cannon only outperforms against T8. Exocrine can be used against a broader range of light vehicles and heavy infantry. 12 shots against garbage is also twice as good as 6 of course.

Rupture cannon feels more rock paper scissors, but if you know your friends are bringing big stuff all the time...it is better.

Of course Acid Spray is a damage king, but range means it relies on opponent mistakes/poor rolls as much as your own positioning. Im still running it for now.

What I’m wondering now is if the Malanthrope is worth it still at 140. The -1 to hit is really nice, especially vs guard, but I can put so many more bodies out there....I think it still winds up being worth it, but man is it close

He fits a niche that is difficult to replace. 3 Venomthropes are cheaper but if only 1 dies then their aura stops covering monsters. If you pay 120 for 4 of them then you might as well shell out for the Malanthrope. Also, there's the cost of HQ. If you have Malanthrope in your list, then he's filling an HQ slot that you'll either have to replace with another HQ or completely change your detachments. For 140 pts he is still a cheap HQ option relative to our other choices.

Has anyone else considered running 3 tyrants with HVC and devs and a unit of 6 tyrant guard backed by a malenthrope? Only 900 points. Kronos obviously.

Seems like some pretty decent dakka and should be tanky as all get out.

I just can't get over how cheap walka-rants are. One with MRC, devs and adrenal glands is the same price as a broodlord. Yes please.

Ive used one like that before but with the relic HVC, and i also thinking of using 3 Fex's with HVC/Dev.

 Dynas wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Tyranid Soup tactics are fine here as long as tyranids is a major component of your force. What they are talking about is bringing at most 5 small units, most of them needed to fill out the detachment, to supplement a majority nid force. That absolutely belongs in this discussion. If it was the other way around, 3-4 Nid units to add to a GSC/AM force then take it someplace else.


On a different subject, I found a way to create a PDF form so you guys would need to fill in the information on the quick reference sheet yourself (which also makes it legal for me to post to dakka). But, here is a preview of what I have going so far.

Spoiler:

It will be at most 2 pages (front and back of a single laminated cardstock sheet or 2 sheets if thats what you prefer) and include all wargear when it's done.

Fantastic, ready for the 2nd page so i can print mine out.

I did a test print of this, and if I may make a suggestion I think its a bit hard to read, You may need to remove the background image, as cool as it looks, but it makes some of the lines, especially the darker lines harder to read. Also, perhaps try and do outlined boxes/borders, not sure if that will help. Overall though, fantastic, cant wait to see the end result.
Any chance you can make it fillable in a pdf or line up with the tab button? That would be really really super awesome.

The plan is to make it a fillable PDF. I found my old copy of Adobe CS3 from school and got it on my laptop. Now I can make fillable PDF forms. It's a bit of trial and error getting it to work right but Il figure it out soon enough. Page 2 is almost finished.

 Niiai wrote:
Do we have some of the old school siluet pictures? Those would be awsome to have in a faint grey behind instead of the cover photo. Less colours is easier on the eyes. Having it just blank is a bit drab.

I will be happy to stick whatever picture into the background that people want. I can also increase the opacity on the white box to increase the sharpness on the text and fade out the image a bit more. I haven't tested printing any of it yet. Still adjusting some of the layout and stuff.

Finally, as a reminder, I intend to make a 8.5 x 11 version and a 5 x 8 (same as the small format codexes). Personally I will be sticking with the 5 x 8.

Spores:
Just to point it out again... you can still do dirty things on first turn with Mucolid Spores! They are even good as defense against Alpha Legion Berzerkers and such.

Venomthropes:
Is it worth considering to use 1 Venomthrope as an Auxillary detachment and letting it come out of a hole with a lot of other infantery. Should be really cheap (30 points) and is not much easier to shoot than 2-3 of them.

Tried out my 2000 points list last weekend, vs an Ultramarines + Imperial Knight list.
No full battle report, suffice it to say the Tyranids won it fairly clearly.

List below, along with how each unit performed.


Kraken Bataillon
Hive Tyrant, Wings, 2 TLD, Adrenals, Chameolonic Mutation
Deep struck turn 1. Did 4 wounds to a Storm Talon with Smite+TLD. Killed a Land Speeder in turn two. Did 4 wounds to a Rhino in turn three.
Overall feeling: while 24 ST6 shots sounds nice, in this game he didn't feel like he earned back his points. This might possibly be because I fired at the wrong targets and should have been aiming more for infantry. Will have to try him again.

Hive Tyrant, Wings, 1 TLD, MST, Adrenals, Toxin Sacs
Deep strike turn 1, Charged a Venerable Dreadnought, killed it in two turns, while also taking 6 wounds (can't roll a 4++ to save my life). Killed a full Tactical Squad after that through Smite/TLD/MST
Overall feeling: did well, Scything Talons are solid weapons. 12 Devourer shots is still plenty but suffer from low AP, might still give him Heavy Venom Cannon instead to try out.

20 Genestealers
Couldn't roll high enough on the advance roll for turn 1 charge against juicy targets, so killed a unit of Scouts instead.
After that, 90% of the enemy army shot at them, and wiped them out. Forgot to put Catalyst on them :(
So you might say they didn't do much, but they did soak an awful lot of firepower before going.
Next time they'll just run up with the Hormagaunts, instead of getting distracted by Scouts.

15 Genestealers
Came out of infestation marker and charged Terminators + Librarian who had teleported in my deployment zone.
Still stuck in combat with Termies at end of battle, due to lack of rendings.
Useful to have them avaiable in the deployment zone, but Spore Mines / Rippers could have blocked the Terminators as well, so should probably have run them up as well. Live and learn.

18 Hormagaunts
Surged forward on a big line through the middle, presenting a direct and immeadiate threat.
Forced the Ultramarines to disembark from their Rhino to kill them, leaving the Termagaunts behind them to lock down the Marines.
Very fast with the Kraken adaptation, cannot be ignored, not for damage but for locking down units. Solid.


Kronos Bataillon
-----------------------------
Neurothrope
Stayed with the Kronos fire base. Didn't do very much, but just he fact that he is untargeteable synapse in your fire base, makes him golden.

Neurothrope
Dealt with the Terminator invasion in the deployment zone. Same remark as other Neurothrope.

29 Termagaunts
Avanced right behind the Hormagaunts and when they all died, locked down the Marines, together with the Malanthrope.
15 or so died, and then they fell back out of combat, leaving the Kronos firebase to finish off the Marines.

3 Ripper Swarms
3 Ripper Swarms
Did their job. Deep struck turn 3, when most of the fighting was dying down and grabbed the objectives.

Kronos Spearhead

Malanthrope
Advanced behind the Termagaunts and Hormagaunts, giving them the benefit of the -1 to-hit bubble.
Solid, as usual, will probably still take him even with the price hike to 140. His 9 wounds and aura just make him so good.

6 Hive Guard, Impaler Cannons
Absolute MVP's. Stuck them centrally out of LOS of everything.
Shot 9 wounds of an Imperial Knight turn 1, and then 7 more with the 'shoot again' Strategem.
Ultramarines couldn't reach them due to sea of Gaunts in-between, so they shot everything to pieces.

Exocrine
Helped with the Imperial Knight and with the Ultramarines in the middle.
Very solid shooting, only outshadowed by the Hive Guard...

Biovore
Biovore
Biovore

Sneaky bastards 'missed' the Imperial Knight turn 1 and plopped three Spore Mines in front of him, forcing him to move sideways instead of towards us.
Having the option of either going for Mortal Wounds or putting Spore Mines in the way of nasty units is just great.

 Astmeister wrote:
Spores:
Just to point it out again... you can still do dirty things on first turn with Mucolid Spores! They are even good as defense against Alpha Legion Berzerkers and such.

Venomthropes:
Is it worth considering to use 1 Venomthrope as an Auxillary detachment and letting it come out of a hole with a lot of other infantery. Should be really cheap (30 points) and is not much easier to shoot than 2-3 of them.

I must have missed it. How do you make use of Mucolids? I like the model and would love to have some use out of those instead of just brigade tax evasion.

Spoletta wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:
Spores:
Just to point it out again... you can still do dirty things on first turn with Mucolid Spores! They are even good as defense against Alpha Legion Berzerkers and such.

Venomthropes:
Is it worth considering to use 1 Venomthrope as an Auxillary detachment and letting it come out of a hole with a lot of other infantery. Should be really cheap (30 points) and is not much easier to shoot than 2-3 of them.

I must have missed it. How do you make use of Mucolids? I like the model and would love to have some use out of those instead of just brigade tax evasion.

Sorry, I meant Meiotic Spores. Was a typo.

babelfish wrote:

Drager wrote:
The Exocrine is pretty much just better than the tyrannofex, not by much, but enough in a competitive meta.

I'm not sold that it is. I see the trade off as being range + potential spike damage vs. consistency. Maybe it is a local meta issue, but being able to threaten T8 first turn means a lot to me.

Can you walk me through the logic on why the Exocrine is better?

Sure. First off let's compare their damage profiles against various targets. In this case, I am assuming that both are in range and stationary. The range difference I'll discuss below.

Super Heavy

Here the rupture cannon is a clear winner, if you are facing a meta replete with knights and titans the Rupture cannon is the better choice and worth the extra 16 points. The Bioplasmic Cannon is by no means bad though and catches up a lot with Pathogenic Slime, getting more of a boost than the Rupture Cannon. Against these targets 2-3 rupture cannons are what you want for certain.

"Rupture Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+/5++ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 8 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 57%"

"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+/5++ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 6.22 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 57%"

"Bioplasmic Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 2+ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 5.33 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 55%"

"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+/5++ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 3.56 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 26%"

Armour

Tank

Here again, the Rupture Cannon is better, so if the enemy army is overloading on Russ chassis it could be useful, however, unlike with super heavies you don't want more than one, in fact the optimal pair is Rupture Cannon and Exocrine, not wasting killing power or paying more than needed. If you are taking 3 weapon beasts and facing a Russ herd then 2 Rupture Cannon and 1 Exocrine seems best. If you are facing 2-3 heavy chassis then 2 Exocrine and 1 Rupture will get the job done nicely and leave you with other advantages.

"Rupture Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 10 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"

"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 7.78 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"

"Bioplasmic Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 6.67 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 68%"

"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 4.44 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 39%"


Transport

This is probably the most common vehicle toughness/save combination in 40k at the moment and the Bioplasmic Cannon with pathogenic slime is by far our best bet at totalling one in a single volley, although both it and a slimey Rupture Cannon tie on average damage. I would typically want to shoot this target with 2 things, however, as that will more likely succeed at the kill and in that case, two bioplasmic cannons or two Rupture Cannons is fine, although the Rupture cannon costs more for a very similar performance and much less of a boost with Slime. Very similar performance in this category. I'd probably take 3 Exocrines and a Biovore over 3 Tyrannofex against razorspam.

"Bioplasmic Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 10 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 89%"

"Rupture Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 10 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"

"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 7.78 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"

"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 6.67 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 69%"


Infantry

Given the similar performance against armour (except super heavies) this is an important thing to look at, what else can these beasts do? And the answer is simple. Shoot infantry. The Biplasmic Cannon massively out performs at this secondary role.

TEQ

"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 2+/5++ Wounds: 2
Average Damage: 7.11 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 74%"

"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 2+/5++ Wounds: 2
Average Damage: 4.44 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 39%"

MEQ

"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 3+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 4.44 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 26%"

"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 3+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 2.78 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 1%"

GEQ

"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 3 Save: 5+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 7.78 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 91%"

"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 3 Save: 5+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 3.89 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 7%"

Range

The extra 12" of range rarely comes up in most deployment types, either they are 60+" away or within 48", especially if you hold your weapon beasts to deploy after their tanks.

Other COnsiderations

Against super heavy armour, we actually have a different unit in the same price bracket that is better at killing them: Shock Cannon Hive Guard. These have their own set of issues though so are not clearly better (24" range being the big bugbear).


Verdict

Writing this I've actually changed my mind. Whilst taking one or two of the big beasts I'd still go with 2 Exocrine, I'd say with 3 you want to split it 2 Exocrine/1 Tyrannofex. They are much closer than I originally thought. Thanks for getting me to reconsider.

Drager wrote:

babelfish wrote:

Drager wrote:
The Exocrine is pretty much just better than the tyrannofex, not by much, but enough in a competitive meta.

I'm not sold that it is. I see the trade off as being range + potential spike damage vs. consistency. Maybe it is a local meta issue, but being able to threaten T8 first turn means a lot to me.

Can you walk me through the logic on why the Exocrine is better?

Sure. First off let's compare their damage profiles against various targets. In this case, I am assuming that both are in range and stationary. The range difference I'll discuss below.

Super Heavy

Here the rupture cannon is a clear winner, if you are facing a meta replete with knights and titans the Rupture cannon is the better choice and worth the extra 16 points. The Bioplasmic Cannon is by no means bad though and catches up a lot with Pathogenic Slime, getting more of a boost than the Rupture Cannon. Against these targets 2-3 rupture cannons are what you want for certain.

"Rupture Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+/5++ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 8 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 57%"

"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+/5++ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 6.22 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 57%"

"Bioplasmic Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 2+ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 5.33 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 55%"

"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+/5++ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 3.56 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 26%"

Armour

Tank

Here again, the Rupture Cannon is better, so if the enemy army is overloading on Russ chassis it could be useful, however, unlike with super heavies you don't want more than one, in fact the optimal pair is Rupture Cannon and Exocrine, not wasting killing power or paying more than needed. If you are taking 3 weapon beasts and facing a Russ herd then 2 Rupture Cannon and 1 Exocrine seems best. If you are facing 2-3 heavy chassis then 2 Exocrine and 1 Rupture will get the job done nicely and leave you with other advantages.

"Rupture Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 10 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"

"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 7.78 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"

"Bioplasmic Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 6.67 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 68%"

"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 4.44 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 39%"


Transport

This is probably the most common vehicle toughness/save combination in 40k at the moment and the Bioplasmic Cannon with pathogenic slime is by far our best bet at totalling one in a single volley, although both it and a slimey Rupture Cannon tie on average damage. I would typically want to shoot this target with 2 things, however, as that will more likely succeed at the kill and in that case, two bioplasmic cannons or two Rupture Cannons is fine, although the Rupture cannon costs more for a very similar performance and much less of a boost with Slime. Very similar performance in this category. I'd probably take 3 Exocrines and a Biovore over 3 Tyrannofex against razorspam.

"Bioplasmic Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 10 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 89%"

"Rupture Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 10 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"

"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 7.78 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"

"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 6.67 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 69%"


Infantry

Given the similar performance against armour (except super heavies) this is an important thing to look at, what else can these beasts do? And the answer is simple. Shoot infantry. The Biplasmic Cannon massively out performs at this secondary role.

TEQ

"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 2+/5++ Wounds: 2
Average Damage: 7.11 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 74%"

"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 2+/5++ Wounds: 2
Average Damage: 4.44 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 39%"

MEQ

"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 3+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 4.44 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 26%"

"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 3+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 2.78 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 1%"

GEQ

"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 3 Save: 5+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 7.78 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 91%"

"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 3 Save: 5+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 3.89 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 7%"

Range

The extra 12" of range rarely comes up in most deployment types, either they are 60+" away or within 48", especially if you hold your weapon beasts to deploy after their tanks.

Other COnsiderations

Against super heavy armour, we actually have a different unit in the same price bracket that is better at killing them: Shock Cannon Hive Guard. These have their own set of issues though so are not clearly better (24" range being the big bugbear).


Verdict

Writing this I've actually changed my mind. Whilst taking one or two of the big beasts I'd still go with 2 Exocrine, I'd say with 3 you want to split it 2 Exocrine/1 Tyrannofex. They are much closer than I originally thought. Thanks for getting me to reconsider.

Very good writeup, thank you!

"Rupture Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+/5++ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 8 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 57%"

"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+/5++ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 6.22 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 57%"

I think both should have different probabilities of 6 or more wounds?

The Hive Guard with Schock Cannon is clearly good, but it needs a delivery option and is probably dead after one shooting phase. Besides it does not work against all super heavy targets, for example the Wraith Knight.