Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured

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**Marmatag**

That list will get aced by long ranged shooting.

If you're making a shooty nids list and you don't have hive guards that's a colossal mistake.

My 2c.

**pinecone77**

Marmatag wrote:
That list will get aced by long ranged shooting.

If you're making a shooty nids list and you don't have hive guards that's a colossal mistake.

My 2c.

Thanks! I knew I was missing Something. But I thought that DS with the Supreme Command could let me trash what ever they have back there, even if it turns out to be a suicide mission.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Three Tyrants, Double Tap. Fight Twice...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess some Veno's need to turn into Hive Guard.

**luke1705**

DaBraken wrote:

Can you charge behind enemy models, if you can fit between them, using your consolidation to go even further in their deployment zone, if there a models closer than the unit you just charged?

Oh 100%. I once lost a tournament game to a guy who won a 32 man RTT because I mis-spaced my models. He literally just said to me, "hey Luke....look at this" as he moved his guys through my models without touching their bases. I was like.....well. That sucks. He's a great sport and we play a lot, so I still rag on him for that tournament win I "gifted" him. Still got 5th but would have gotten first or second if I hadn't made that singular mistake.

Or, rather, let me clarify since what you're saying might be a little ambiguous. There are 2 units within 12" of you. You charge them both. They overwatch. You move your models up to your max charge roll, moving literally any direction that you want, going right past the models in the front unit if you want. Then when you pile, fight, and consolidate, each model in your unit needs to end each movement it makes closer to the model that it is itself closest to at that moment.

It's a little tricky, but making good pile and consolidate moves 100% wins games. Learn the phase thoroughly, ESPECIALLY for Nids.

**Olenos**

Definitely agree with Luke on learning the fight phase thoroughly. As my experience has grown I have been able to make a lot better plays within the phase to maximize my movement and damage, while also mitigating the opponents response.

The OP has a great guide into hormagaunt piling in/consolidating that I would highly recommend.

Things like making sure to avoid an enemy heroic intervention, and making sure you are making the "closest unit" something you want to consolidate into.

Also I know I am a bit late but thanks for the reports guys always enjoy reading up on those. Great insight and strategy.

**Spoletta**

DaBraken wrote:
I made up my mind after reading the FAQ and tried to make further use of the Sporefield and Pheromone Trail stratagems

For example, the Sporefield stratagem, albeit considered bad.

Q: If a new unit is added to an army – for example as a result
of the Sporefield or Call the Brood Stratagems – is it part of
a Detachment?
A: No.

Yes, we could just buy them regulary, but not doing so reduces the drops we have by 2, in addition to be able to place them just before the game starts to maybe block things noone thought of, because the units didn't exist at that point.
BUT, what to do, when you dont want to use the stratagem after deployment an more? What to do with the 30-180 points unused?

And what could the Pheromone Trail be used for?
I just could imagine to bring spore mines 9" close to the enemy, instead of 12".
Everything else beeing able to go into reserves, but not beeing designated to a special deployment style can freely deepstrike whereever it wants, without the Pheromone Trail anyways... weird stratagem now...

For both these I had an idea, although its sure not the best way to burn cps and points.
180 Points would be a complete unit of 30 Gargoyles replenished via 'Endless Swarm', beeing able to come near a Liktor.
Sure, why not just buying them in the first place... but this would be a way to summon whole troops after turn 3, wich is coonsidered to be safe mentioned deepstrike and such. And it reduces the drops by 1.
Could this be a use for 3cps and 180 points not spent up front?
Maybe its really just mere crap now after FAQ, I dont know.

I've been thinking about something similar. Reserving 180 points to either drop spore mines if i need it, or use it to bring back my adrenagants (180 points) to a lictor. In addition to this you play a squad of termagants that are 15/15 devourers/whatever which also clock at 180. This way you have 3 options for that points. Another option if you have a devbomb is to bring back 22 devgants to a lictor for another round of goodness (or bring them back as a 15/15 unit, it's allowed).

**Astmeister**

pinecone77 wrote:
OK, I was noodling around, and I built this "No Stealers" list.....maybe it's the pain meds, but I think this looks playable Let me know what you think

Kronos: Supreme Command +1 CP, x3 Winged Tyrants, MRC, Dev, Glands, maybe one Balethorn(likely add Miasma to a second Tyrant for 1 CP).......aprox 552 points

Kronos: Brigade +9 CP

HQ: Neuro, x3

Elites: Veno,x3,x2
Elites: Lictor

Heavy: Tyrannofex+Rupture, x2
Heavy: Canifex, Deathspittersx4 spore, acid maw

Troops: Ripper swarms,x3,x4
Troops: Termagants, x2, x2

FA: Mucolids,x1,x3

Battle forged +3 CP= 13 CP...thoughts?

I like your list! I was always more a shooty Tyranid player and like the concept. Especially the Carnifexen are very interesting with 4x DS and Acid Maw. Although I would probably go for the Devourers, because more shots with BS 4+ is better imho and they want to be close anyway to fight.
How many Termagants has each unit?

**Dynas**

luke1705 wrote:
DaBraken wrote:

Can you charge behind enemy models, if you can fit between them, using your consolidation to go even further in their deployment zone, if there a models closer than the unit you just charged?

Oh 100%. I once lost a tournament game to a guy who won a 32 man RTT because I mis-spaced my models. He literally just said to me, "hey Luke....look at this" as he moved his guys through my models without touching their bases. I was like.....well. That sucks. He's a great sport and we play a lot, so I still rag on him for that tournament win I "gifted" him. Still got 5th but would have gotten first or second if I hadn't made that singular mistake.

Or, rather, let me clarify since what you're saying might be a little ambiguous. There are 2 units within 12" of you. You charge them both. They overwatch. You move your models up to your max charge roll, moving literally any direction that you want, going right past the models in the front unit if you want. Then when you pile, fight, and consolidate, each model in your unit needs to end each movement it makes closer to the model that it is itself closest to at that moment.

It's a little tricky, but making good pile and consolidate moves 100% wins games. Learn the phase thoroughly, ESPECIALLY for Nids.

You cannot move within 1" of enemy models, if you do, you stop there, and are assuming to charge in the charge phase. Given unit coherency is 2", and the smallest base is 1", I don't see how this is possible...

**Fragile**

Dynas wrote:
luke1705 wrote:
DaBraken wrote:

Can you charge behind enemy models, if you can fit between them, using your consolidation to go even further in their deployment zone, if there a models closer than the unit you just charged?

Oh 100%. I once lost a tournament game to a guy who won a 32 man RTT because I mis-spaced my models. He literally just said to me, "hey Luke....look at this" as he moved his guys through my models without touching their bases. I was like.....well. That sucks. He's a great sport and we play a lot, so I still rag on him for that tournament win I "gifted" him. Still got 5th but would have gotten first or second if I hadn't made that singular mistake.

Or, rather, let me clarify since what you're saying might be a little ambiguous. There are 2 units within 12" of you. You charge them both. They overwatch. You move your models up to your max charge roll, moving literally any direction that you want, going right past the models in the front unit if you want. Then when you pile, fight, and consolidate, each model in your unit needs to end each movement it makes closer to the model that it is itself closest to at that moment.

It's a little tricky, but making good pile and consolidate moves 100% wins games. Learn the phase thoroughly, ESPECIALLY for Nids.

You cannot move within 1" of enemy models, if you do, you stop there, and are assuming to charge in the charge phase. Given unit coherency is 2", and the smallest base is 1", I don't see how this is possible...

You can move within1" when charging. So you move your models through his gaps to the other side. Perfectly legal. If you declare charges against both you can set up to pile in to another unit pretty easily.

**Drager**

You can move within an inch in the charge phase, which is what was being discussed.

**Traceoftoxin**

"The
first model you move must finish within 1" of an enemy
model from one of the target units. No models in the
charging unit can move within 1" of an enemy unit that
was not a target of its charge"

Pg 182

**Drager**

Traceoftoxin wrote:
"The
first model you move must finish within 1" of an enemy
model from one of the target units. No models in the
charging unit can move within 1" of an enemy unit that
was not a target of its charge"

Pg 182

Exactly this. You charge the screen and then run right past it. Also charge things behind.

**Marmatag**

Drager wrote:
Traceoftoxin wrote:
"The
first model you move must finish within 1" of an enemy
model from one of the target units. No models in the
charging unit can move within 1" of an enemy unit that
was not a target of its charge"

Pg 182

Exactly this. You charge the screen and then run right past it. Also charge things behind.

As long as those things are within 12". You cannot declare a charge against a unit outside of 12", no matter your charge/pile in distances.

**Zimko**

Yeah but if it's not in 12" then you couldn't make a charge move that could reach them anyway (except that magical place between 12 and 13 inches). After the charge move though, you can pile in and consolidate within 1" of anything as long as the model finishes the move closer to the nearest unit, even if that involves moving between models to reach a unit behind. Though you can not attack units you didn't charge.

This has been rehashed a lot but it's worth saying again. The fight phase is full of legal shenanigans to get units locked in combat to force a fallback move or to prevent one.

**Dynas**

Fragile wrote:
Dynas wrote:
luke1705 wrote:
DaBraken wrote:

Can you charge behind enemy models, if you can fit between them, using your consolidation to go even further in their deployment zone, if there a models closer than the unit you just charged?

Oh 100%. I once lost a tournament game to a guy who won a 32 man RTT because I mis-spaced my models. He literally just said to me, "hey Luke....look at this" as he moved his guys through my models without touching their bases. I was like.....well. That sucks. He's a great sport and we play a lot, so I still rag on him for that tournament win I "gifted" him. Still got 5th but would have gotten first or second if I hadn't made that singular mistake.

Or, rather, let me clarify since what you're saying might be a little ambiguous. There are 2 units within 12" of you. You charge them both. They overwatch. You move your models up to your max charge roll, moving literally any direction that you want, going right past the models in the front unit if you want. Then when you pile, fight, and consolidate, each model in your unit needs to end each movement it makes closer to the model that it is itself closest to at that moment.

It's a little tricky, but making good pile and consolidate moves 100% wins games. Learn the phase thoroughly, ESPECIALLY for Nids.

You cannot move within 1" of enemy models, if you do, you stop there, and are assuming to charge in the charge phase. Given unit coherency is 2", and the smallest base is 1", I don't see how this is possible...

You can move within1" when charging. So you move your models through his gaps to the other side. Perfectly legal. If you declare charges against both you can set up to pile in to another unit pretty easily.

Maybe I misunderstood. The way it read it was like he was blowing by them. As long the first model comes into base contact, then you get to play with the spacing afterward.

**Resipsa131**

Dumb question; if you declare a charge against 2 units and make one but don't make the other do you still get to finish your charge against the one you made?v

**Zimko**

Resipsa131 wrote:
Dumb question; if you declare a charge against 2 units and make one but don't make the other do you still get to finish your charge against the one you made?v

Yes. You only need to to reach 1" with the first model you move. It doesn't matter which unit it reaches as long as you declared it as a charge target.

**Dynas**

Resipsa131 wrote:
Dumb question; if you declare a charge against 2 units and make one but don't make the other do you still get to finish your charge against the one you made?v

Yes. I actually just thought of something.

Say i have hormaguants 1.1" away from unit A and 6" away from unit B.

I roll a 4 on my charge. I charge into unit A. Now when I pile in, I move in such a way with my 6" pile in that I get within 1" of unit B. Even though I failed the charge, I still elected to charge them and ended my move within 1" of a unit in which I declared a charge, I just happen to get their with the pile in. Since I am within 1" inch of unit B, am I still able to fight unit B?

**Zimko**

Dynas wrote:
Resipsa131 wrote:
Dumb question; if you declare a charge against 2 units and make one but don't make the other do you still get to finish your charge against the one you made?v

Yes. I actually just thought of something.

Say i have hormaguants 1.1" away from unit A and 6" away from unit B.

I roll a 4 on my charge. I charge into unit A. Now when I pile in, I move in such a way with my 6" pile in that I get within 1" of unit B. Even though I failed the charge, I still elected to charge them and ended my move within 1" of a unit in which I declared a charge, I just happen to get their with the pile in. Since I am within 1" inch of unit B, am I still able to fight unit B?

Yes. Same situation can occur when fighting twice. As long as you declared the unit as a target in the charge phase, it is eligible to be attacked in the fight phase that turn.

**Traceoftoxin**

Always declare everything within 12" as a target if it doesn't have overwatch.

Just gives you more options.

**pinecone77**

Astmeister wrote:
pinecone77 wrote:
OK, I was noodling around, and I built this "No Stealers" list.....maybe it's the pain meds, but I think this looks playable Let me know what you think

Kronos: Supreme Command +1 CP, x3 Winged Tyrants, MRC, Dev, Glands, maybe one Balethorn(likely add Miasma to a second Tyrant for 1 CP).......aprox 552 points

Kronos: Brigade +9 CP

HQ: Neuro, x3

Elites: Veno,x3,x2
Elites: Lictor

Heavy: Tyrannofex+Rupture, x2
Heavy: Canifex, Deathspittersx4 spore, acid maw

Troops: Ripper swarms,x3,x4
Troops: Termagants, x2, x2

FA: Mucolids,x1,x3

Battle forged +3 CP= 13 CP...thoughts?

I like your list! I was always more a shooty Tyranid player and like the concept. Especially the Carnifexen are very interesting with 4x DS and Acid Maw. Although I would probably go for the Devourers, because more shots with BS 4+ is better imho and they want to be close anyway to fight.
How many Termagants has each unit?

Oops x20, I wasn't kidding about the pain meds

Automatically Appended Next Post:
One Brood of Termagants and the Carnifex are for screen removal, so the Supreme Command can DS. one or two Neuros can supply Smite support, and hopefully Psycher support. The Lictor is basicly a "tax". But she can stealth up on a Psycher, and Kronos their brains out.

Then try to do something violent.

The Acid Maw just gives the Carnifex a CC option.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
As Marmatag mentioned it likely needs some Hive Guard+ Impalers to be fully effective, so some points will need to be moved around.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's the same list, swapped around to Jormongandr...

Hive Fleet: Jormondgandr, Brigade +9 CP

HQ: Neuro, x3

FA: Raveners, Twin Scything+ Spinefist, x3, x3

Heavy: Carnifex, x4 Deathspitters, Spore, Enhanced senses...115
Heavy; as above
Heavy: as above

Troops: Termagants, x20, x2
Troops: Rippers, x3, x4

Patrol: Hive Fleet Jormongandr: +0 CP

HQ: Brood Lord

Troops: Genestaelers, x16
Troops: Genestealers, x15, x2

Battle forged +3........+12 CP

**Niiai**

I re-read the rules on the carnifexes. Are they really that bad?

Regular fex, 4 scything tallons, adrenal glands 87 points. Seems good to me. Very high threath and durabilaty for under 90 points, or am I wrong?

The thornback also looks descent. Chiting torn deals out mortal wounds on a 6. For 5 points that seems good enough. You are paying 3 points to ignore cover. Spikebanks for 2 points seems decent enough. Slap on some scything tallons to compensate the devourers. 105 points.

I do not know about the screamer killer. It just looks like a superior naked carnifex where you pay 23 points for the plasma attack. The minus to leadership I don't know how often comes up. Can be combined with rippers and the ripper stratagem to further decrease the leadership. It clocks in at 105 points.

**pinecone77**

Niiai wrote:
I re-read the rules on the carnifexes. Are they really that bad?

Regular fex, 4 scything tallons, adrenal glands 87 points. Seems good to me. Very high threath and durabilaty for under 90 points, or am I wrong?

The thornback also looks descent. Chiting torn deals out mortal wounds on a 6. For 5 points that seems good enough. You are paying 3 points to ignore cover. Spikebanks for 2 points seems decent enough. Slap on some scything tallons to compensate the devourers. 105 points.

I do not know about the screamer killer. It just looks like a superior naked carnifex where you pay 23 points for the plasma attack. The minus to leadership I don't know how often comes up. Can be combined with rippers and the ripper stratagem to further decrease the leadership. It clocks in at 105 points.

I'm not sure, for the price...I think they are very nice...it's that most folks fill the Heavy slot with other units. I'll try putting together a Nidzilla list, and anyone who owns that many Carnifexen can test it out

(I own 4, one Screamer, x3 magnetized)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Posted a Krakon "Nidzilla" "theorycraft" list...

**Spoletta**

If you take a melee fex i strongly suggest that you take the toxin sacs. For just 4 points they increase the damage on T7 or more targets by 1/6.

**Dynas**

I've only ran Carnifexes once so far, and they are lascannon magnets. Even with Malanthrope -1, they got killed. Ran 3, plus OOE, 2 got popped turn one. The other turn 2, OOE made it into combat and popped a predator.

**Spoletta**

Dynas wrote:
I've only ran Carnifexes once so far, and they are lascannon magnets. Even with Malanthrope -1, they got killed. Ran 3, plus OOE, 2 got popped turn one. The other turn 2, OOE made it into combat and popped a predator.

That makes it a resounding success. 2 Fexes are 200 points, 1/10 of an army. If all the enemy could manage was to take down 1/10 of your army with the strongest ranged phase they got (the first one), then your army was more than enough durable.

The rule to assess if a model carried his weight during a game is easy.

1) Sum the point cost of the units that fired at it each turn and divide by 3
2) Subtract 2 times the cost of the model
3) Add the damage inflicted by the model (in terms of points)

This gives you the final score of the model for that game. If it is positive, then that model did a good job.
Disclaimer: This method does not take objectives in consideration, and i still have not found a formula for the damage tanked in melee.

**Niiai**

Dynas wrote:
I've only ran Carnifexes once so far, and they are lascannon magnets. Even with Malanthrope -1, they got killed. Ran 3, plus OOE, 2 got popped turn one. The other turn 2, OOE made it into combat and popped a predator.

I actually think this sounds fine. There are 2 ways they carnifexes can fail here. 1 is that they would cost to much. (loocking at you godfex.). The other way they can fail is if they fail to be a threath and your opponent can just ignore them.

The argument 'they can just be shot' can be aplied on most things, bar comming in from reserve. Something was getting shot turn 1.

**Dynas**

Spoletta wrote:
Dynas wrote:
I've only ran Carnifexes once so far, and they are lascannon magnets. Even with Malanthrope -1, they got killed. Ran 3, plus OOE, 2 got popped turn one. The other turn 2, OOE made it into combat and popped a predator.

That makes it a resounding success. 2 Fexes are 200 points, 1/10 of an army. If all the enemy could manage was to take down 1/10 of your army with the strongest ranged phase they got (the first one), then your army was more than enough durable.

The rule to assess if a model carried his weight during a game is easy.

1) Sum the point cost of the units that fired at it each turn and divide by 3
2) Subtract 2 times the cost of the model
3) Add the damage inflicted by the model (in terms of points)

This gives you the final score of the model for that game. If it is positive, then that model did a good job.
Disclaimer: This method does not take objectives in consideration, and i still have not found a formula for the damage tanked in melee.

ok so 3 carnifex at 87 pts each.

2 Dev squads with 3 las cannons. Looks like 145 points.
Still not following your order of operations...
Did they do good or bad by your formula?

**Drager**

Dynas wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Dynas wrote:
I've only ran Carnifexes once so far, and they are lascannon magnets. Even with Malanthrope -1, they got killed. Ran 3, plus OOE, 2 got popped turn one. The other turn 2, OOE made it into combat and popped a predator.

That makes it a resounding success. 2 Fexes are 200 points, 1/10 of an army. If all the enemy could manage was to take down 1/10 of your army with the strongest ranged phase they got (the first one), then your army was more than enough durable.

The rule to assess if a model carried his weight during a game is easy.

1) Sum the point cost of the units that fired at it each turn and divide by 3
2) Subtract 2 times the cost of the model
3) Add the damage inflicted by the model (in terms of points)

This gives you the final score of the model for that game. If it is positive, then that model did a good job.
Disclaimer: This method does not take objectives in consideration, and i still have not found a formula for the damage tanked in melee.

ok so 3 carnifex at 87 pts each.

2 Dev squads with 3 las cannons. Looks like 145 points.
Still not following your order of operations...
Did they do good or bad by your formula?

6 Lascannons killed 2 carnifexes in a turn? That's very very unfotunate. The average damage output for a lascannon against a -1 to hit fex is about 1 wound. 6 lascannons won't drop one fex on average!

**Dynas**

No, not both in one turn. one turn each, but they died before I got there. Might have been a smite in there as well.

Don't remember.

**pinecone77**

Annother "fun Carnifex fact!" is if you run Jormongandr they have 2+ to help tank the Alpha.