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Dynas wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 Dynas wrote:
I've only ran Carnifexes once so far, and they are lascannon magnets. Even with Malanthrope -1, they got killed. Ran 3, plus OOE, 2 got popped turn one. The other turn 2, OOE made it into combat and popped a predator.

That makes it a resounding success. 2 Fexes are 200 points, 1/10 of an army. If all the enemy could manage was to take down 1/10 of your army with the strongest ranged phase they got (the first one), then your army was more than enough durable.

The rule to assess if a model carried his weight during a game is easy.

1) Sum the point cost of the units that fired at it each turn and divide by 3
2) Subtract 2 times the cost of the model
3) Add the damage inflicted by the model (in terms of points)

This gives you the final score of the model for that game. If it is positive, then that model did a good job.
Disclaimer: This method does not take objectives in consideration, and i still have not found a formula for the damage tanked in melee.

ok so 3 carnifex at 87 pts each.

2 Dev squads with 3 las cannons. Looks like 145 points.
Still not following your order of operations...
Did they do good or bad by your formula?

Dynas wrote:No, not both in one turn. one turn each, but they died before I got there. Might have been a smite in there as well.

Don't remember.

Ok let's look at it.

Assuming that a ranged model shoots on average for 3 turns, then an 87 point model is doing fine durability wise if he can survive fire from a combined total of 261 points.
Like you said, a dev squad with lascannons is 145 points . Two of them are 290 points. If a fex goes down to those 6 lascannon shots ( it shouldn't), it is borderline fine, since it means that on average your opponent is not getting a sufficent return for his investment in those lascannons.

That formula assumes that a model on average will require 3 times his cost in ranged shooting to go down, and during the course of the game will remove enemy models accounting for his cost. That is a score of zero. Absorbing more than that firepower gives you extra points as does inflicting more damage. You can have a good score by inflicting few damage but being extra durable, but only the damage received counts, not the one that you could theorically receive. If the model was never attacked at the end of the game and yet it failed to score 2 times his value in damage, then that model was not a credible threat and the opponent just decided to endure and ignore.
Another important consideration, and the one relevant to those carnifices, is that if a model absorbs a firepower higher than average, but fails to do any damage because he was focused early, that could still be fine. The score of the model is low, but the opponent is now suffering from insufficent efficency of his shooting phase, which means that other threats will have more time to rack up an higher score.
In this case that wasn't so good in the end, because he did with 290 points what needed 261. Below average, but not significantly. This means that they were not good targets, but were not bad either.

In short, expected result, close to the average. Nothing to see here.

Got myself a game in, Behemoth vs Ulthwé. First turn, his Farseer re-rolls a failed Guide and gets snake eyes. Lictor brought Hormagaunts in, between Brute Force and a re-rolled wound they killed him, eating his brains to recoup 1CP. 6" pileins entangled a DA exarch, which meant Old One Eye and Neurothrope could break cover and come over to stomp things. Kept throwing Insane Bravery at the over-extended Hormagaunts to keep the tarpit active. Behemoth plus Adrenal Glands is an outstanding combination. We called it in my favour when OOE had activated Adaptive Biology and was chasing down the vehicles.

How did you get the hormagaunts in with the lictor? With the FAQ, it's no longer legal... But it wouldn't be legal before that if you didn't use some kind of rule like the jorm strategem to get them into reserves.

 Zimko wrote:
How did you get the hormagaunts in with the lictor? With the FAQ, it's no longer legal... But it wouldn't be legal before that if you didn't use some kind of rule like the jorm strategem to get them into reserves.

Huh. So... how is it even useable? FAQ says you can't have a unit deployed in tunnels or orbit follow the beacon. What can Lictors even do?

 lindsay40k wrote:

 Zimko wrote:
How did you get the hormagaunts in with the lictor? With the FAQ, it's no longer legal... But it wouldn't be legal before that if you didn't use some kind of rule like the jorm strategem to get them into reserves.

Huh. So... how is it even useable? FAQ says you can't have a unit deployed in tunnels or orbit follow the beacon. What can Lictors even do?

Only through either call the brood or endless swarm. Or spore mines, gets you an extra 3".

So, they're basically useless.

 lindsay40k wrote:

 Zimko wrote:
How did you get the hormagaunts in with the lictor? With the FAQ, it's no longer legal... But it wouldn't be legal before that if you didn't use some kind of rule like the jorm strategem to get them into reserves.

Huh. So... how is it even useable?

It's not. Unless you like narrative games.

For lols, check out Lictors voted as the most OP unit in the game pre-CA, second only after Malefic Lords: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/746010.page

 lindsay40k wrote:
Behemoth plus Adrenal Glands is an outstanding combination.

I have very much enjoyed Behemoth plus adrenal glands (and add Brute Force). It works great to heavily damage a rhino, then charge/surround it with hormagaunts and blow it up with Brute force, killing the guys inside.

Yeah Pheromone trail and sporefield are basically crap atm.

pinecone77 wrote:
Annother "fun Carnifex fact!" is if you run Jormongandr they have 2+ to help tank the Alpha.

Yeah, leviathan facts are not as funn as you have a hard time stacking synapse. However, most ffexes want run free (read advance) because of the relativly short range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I run 2 groups of 9 warriors. All adrenal glands. In each group 3 have boneswords and venom cannons, and 6 have scything tallons and deathspitters.

A prime is running with the. He has flesh hooks, adrenal glands, deatgspitters, and probably the norn crown (for backline hive guards) what melee weapon should I give him? Bone swords, or bone sword and whip. Keep in mind that wity the whip he can stick around til the end of the phase even if he drops to 0 wounds.

Build the prime for ranged combat. Make the most of being a less than 10 w character and keep him out of melee with your warrior screens.

Yeah, but he does need a melee weapon. They are both only 2 points. I am not wasting S5 and 4 attacks on scything tallons.

Why not take take swords on all your warriors?

1. They are 5th edition warriors most of them. A big lack of swords.

2. I consider them a prime target for getting shot at. "Say what? They are mini lascannons, and heavy bolters al at BS3+? I think I will shoot at them." While it is only 12 points on each squad, I am saving those points.

Put a Carnifex next to them. Then the Fex gets the 6++, and draws fire that the warriors would get. If they ignore it charge them, and teach them better.

I am.

Sounds like overanalysis to me. Swords significantly add to their versatility. Part of playing Nids is threat overload, if Warriors are the obvious target then you should consider replacing whatever is in your list that isn't worth targeting.

 Lance845 wrote:
Yeah Pheromone trail and sporefield are basically crap atm.

The bizarre thing is 60 people thinking they were better than Big Bobby G before CA.

 N.I.B. wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Yeah Pheromone trail and sporefield are basically crap atm.

The bizarre thing is 60 people thinking they were better than Big Bobby G before CA.

Movement is super key. Bobby G allows you to re-roll some dice.

Anyone tried sporocysts since the codex? I’ve just bought a second one - they’re super fun. I like dropping them directly on an objective and continually pumping out spores. They create a pretty effective no-go zone and require significant firepower to remove. Not sure on which fleet to go for with them though. Kraken gives them super speedy spore mines, Kronos lets them spread the deny bubble and makes them more accurate and jormungandr gives them a 3+ save with no drawbacks. Also which guns do people run? IMO deathspitters are the superior choice due to cost and guaranteed number of shots

I believe in the FAQ it said that created units do not count as part of a detachment. Does that mean spore mines from sporecysts or biovores do not get the hive fleet trait?

 Zimko wrote:
I believe in the FAQ it said that created units do not count as part of a detachment. Does that mean spore mines from sporecysts or biovores do not get the hive fleet trait?

Correct.

Razerous wrote:

 N.I.B. wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Yeah Pheromone trail and sporefield are basically crap atm.

The bizarre thing is 60 people thinking they were better than Big Bobby G before CA.

Movement is super key. Bobby G allows you to re-roll some dice.

ALL dice to hit and to wound, if you had a pulse when you made your list. And can't be targeted, is a badass in combat and provides 3 CP for showing up. But he can't hold a candle on the pre-retcon Lictor, who was ravaging tournaments before CA, no sir! Lictor was the most OP unit in the game, bar Malefic lords. Better than Celestine, or Conscripts! Pls, don't defend insanity, makes you part of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

C4790M wrote:
Anyone tried sporocysts since the codex? I’ve just bought a second one - they’re super fun. I like dropping them directly on an objective and continually pumping out spores. They create a pretty effective no-go zone and require significant firepower to remove. Not sure on which fleet to go for with them though. Kraken gives them super speedy spore mines, Kronos lets them spread the deny bubble and makes them more accurate and jormungandr gives them a 3+ save with no drawbacks. Also which guns do people run? IMO deathspitters are the superior choice due to cost and guaranteed number of shots

Yeah I like to place mine to either block enemy infiltrators (FO Berserkers) or just box in the enemy, preferably while standing on an objective. Kronos feels like the obvious choice - Deepest Shadow and reroll 1's to hit.

The new faq gave all mucolids and spore mines the <hive fleet> key word so they would count.

I love the three sporocysts I use every game. They make their points back just from pumping out free models, and anything that tries to melee them regrets it if they can’t kill them in one turn. I initially ran them with barbed stranglers just to fill in points, and honestly I think they’re better than spitters most of the time: The 36” range can help a lot, especially on things like the new CA missions where you can’t always expect your models to drop where you want them.

 N.I.B. wrote:

Razerous wrote:

 N.I.B. wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Yeah Pheromone trail and sporefield are basically crap atm.

The bizarre thing is 60 people thinking they were better than Big Bobby G before CA.

Movement is super key. Bobby G allows you to re-roll some dice.

ALL dice to hit and to wound, if you had a pulse when you made your list. And can't be targeted, is a badass in combat and provides 3 CP for showing up. But he can't hold a candle on the pre-retcon Lictor, who was ravaging tournaments before CA, no sir! Lictor was the most OP unit in the game, bar Malefic lords. Better than Celestine, or Conscripts! Pls, don't defend insanity, makes you part of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

C4790M wrote:
Anyone tried sporocysts since the codex? I’ve just bought a second one - they’re super fun. I like dropping them directly on an objective and continually pumping out spores. They create a pretty effective no-go zone and require significant firepower to remove. Not sure on which fleet to go for with them though. Kraken gives them super speedy spore mines, Kronos lets them spread the deny bubble and makes them more accurate and jormungandr gives them a 3+ save with no drawbacks. Also which guns do people run? IMO deathspitters are the superior choice due to cost and guaranteed number of shots

Yeah I like to place mine to either block enemy infiltrators (FO Berserkers) or just box in the enemy, preferably while standing on an objective. Kronos feels like the obvious choice - Deepest Shadow and reroll 1's to hit.

Deepest shadow does not apply. Again, sporocysts do not gain sitw. Only synapse.

Edit: NVM! Deepest Shadow doesn't require anything but being a Kronos unit. Carry on!

So, DA stuff is now out. How do you think this will impact us?
They seem to have a scary plasma fusilade per turn, extremely resilient terminators (-1 to wounds hurts a lot), good flyers with easy 4++ against shooting, high mobility on Ravenwing and in general a solid gunline thanks to the greenwing chapter tactic. They have a stratagem that allows any one unit to fall back and shoot. Lots of tricks and powers based on leadership.

Will this be a problematic matchup for us? Is it going to be easy?
Will this move the meta in a direction that favors us or that hinders us?

Here are my thoughts:

1) They probably have the lowest model count out of all the SM, bar maybe the GK. This means no screening, which can be a death sentence. We can put a lot of stuff in meele quite fast, though this isn't a game over like it is for AM because of the forementioned stratagem, the abundant number of flying vehicles they have and the fact that they usually pack a discrete punch in meele.

2) As far as leadership goes we are really in a good spot, we don't have a lot of problems there.

3) They can remove a target like a Leman Russ from the game with as much as 180 points in shooting units. This is enormous, but luckily it is plasma based, so all our -1 to hits are a good protection.

4) Those flyers are indeed an issue, but not something we can't somehow take care of.

All in all they probably have a bad matchup against us. What about the effects on the meta?

I think that the main characteristic of a DA army is that it's firepower comes mainly from stratagems, not from models. This means that they don't make good gunlines, since they have a diminishing return on theyr investments in ranged firepower. On the other hand, they can present a credible firepower with a small investment in points, and use the rest of the points in melee components, making for the first army that works at it's best when adopting a balanced approach.

Honestly i don't think that they will have any impact on the meta, DA lists will be hard to play correctly and will not see enough play to warrant any change in other factions lists.

Feel free to share your thoughts on this matter.

DA are absolutely crushing againgst Nidzilla lists but weak to gauntspam. Yet another reason to not use carnifex even with their points reduction.

However, DA with termies and flyers crush's out gaunts as well.


Basically our only chance againgst DA is to screen our shooters out of rapid fire range and to drop mortal wounds with either psychers or spores.

Awesome news, Azreals helm only affects bikes and infantry. That means that killing darkshrouds will be much much easier. I'll admit I was scared of a potential Fire Raptor Azreal Darkshroud list, but I guess not!

 jifel wrote:
Awesome news, Azreals helm only affects bikes and infantry. That means that killing darkshrouds will be much much easier. I'll admit I was scared of a potential Fire Raptor Azreal Darkshroud list, but I guess not!

Darkshrouds will advance each turn, meaning that they will always have a 4++.

do darkshrouds now give a bubble of 4++? In index they give -1 to hit, I haven't heard of that changing.

They still give -1 to hit, but jink now is 4++ when you advance, and shrouds will do it every turn.