Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured

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**Overdose**

Hi everyone-
Looking to get into Tyranids. I really like Genestealers and the Broodlord models so that’s the part I’d like to focus mainly on.

If I grab the Start Collecting box, what would be the next suggested upgrade to grab?
(Personally not a huge fan of having horde units...)

And which Hive Fleet fits the best for a Genestealer-focused army?

Thanks everyone

**Emicrania**

Haloa

I need an hand here, I´ll participate at a tournament next month and I need to send in my list in a couple of weeks.
The tournament should be CA + ITC style 1750 no LoW, no Named Char, limited FW models and some more limits depending on the lists: no spam, no cherry picking units and so on; is a friendly/competitive tournament in a big convention. We´ll be using the beta rules for smite and char.
My usual Alfastrike list got bummed, so I need an hand to get back some synergy. My usual, and extremely good, list has been so far:

Kraken BattallioN

***HQ***
-Swarmy
-Broodlord
-HT RC+HVC+ wigs+AG
***Troops***
20 Gene
22 Horma
1 Rippers

Kronos Spearhead:

***HQ***
Neuro
***Troops***
7 Terma Flesh+15 Terma Devs
***Heavy Support***
3 Bio
1 Trygon
1 Exocrine

The termagants are Kronos for the kronos stratagems vs psykers and because i can hold a whole flank for at least 2 turns without leaving the deployment zone with my Neuro.
Now without Swarmy I cant really Alfa Strike more than a unit for sure, so I need more board control and press to remove dangerous enemy units.
I was thinking either to add 2 thornbacks with double devourer on the kraken side, or to max the devourers on the termagants, full up the unit size with HG and maybe have a vanilla fex to eat up some fire.
What do you guys think is best?

**zerosignal**

Overdose wrote:
Hi everyone-
Looking to get into Tyranids. I really like Genestealers and the Broodlord models so that’s the part I’d like to focus mainly on.

If I grab the Start Collecting box, what would be the next suggested upgrade to grab?
(Personally not a huge fan of having horde units...)

And which Hive Fleet fits the best for a Genestealer-focused army?

Thanks everyone

Swarmlord in Tyrannocyte (double move) + Trygons as a delivery system?

You say you're not a fan of horde, but I think Genestealer-heavy lists will be exactly that (20-stealer blobs delivered via Trygon tunnel + Swarmlord double-move).
Correct me if wrong? (not much experience in 8th with nids yet).

**Odrankt**

Overdose wrote:
Hi everyone-
Looking to get into Tyranids. I really like Genestealers and the Broodlord models so that’s the part I’d like to focus mainly on.

If I grab the Start Collecting box, what would be the next suggested upgrade to grab?
(Personally not a huge fan of having horde units...)

And which Hive Fleet fits the best for a Genestealer-focused army?

Thanks everyone

I would recommend you buy he Genestealers on their own or to get another start collecting box if you want another Mawloc. You could also try the Space Hulk boxset. It contains 20 Genestealers and a brrodlord. I have seen some people sell that half of the box so shouldn't be to hard to find on Facebook Wargaming trading pages or eBay.

Best Hive Fleet for Genestealer in my opinion would be Kraken or Leviathan.

Kraken let's units Move, Advance and Charge. And while Gstealers already have this rule you get to roll 3 dice instead of 1 for advancing and pick the highest result. You can then spend 1CP to double that Advance dice giving your Gstealers extra movement e.g. Move 8, advance 6, double it via 1 CP and your Gstealers are now moving 20" across the board. Only issue is that you can only use that stratagem once per turn so while 1 unit moves 20 the others will move 14. It also let's you to fall back in the movement phase and charge again so is quite nice if you want to hold things up and charge or multi-charge different units.

Leviathan gives your whole army a 6+ FnP. However, if you cast catalyst your FnP goes to a 5+ as your not allowed stack them. This makes tours Gstealers 5+ invul and 6+ FnP. While you don't get the opportunity to move as much as Kraken and roll roll 3 dice for advancing they do become tankier which might help them last longer in CC and what not.

I also have a question, if we give Gstealers the 4+ invul save can we advance and charge using Kraken even though the unit specifically says it loses this ability.

Anyway, welcome to the Hive mind.

**Eihnlazer**

Odrankt genestealers never get a 4+ invun. If your talking about the +1 armor save from extended carapace you can stack that with the cover save bonus from jormugundyr to have them at 3+ armor save.

They only loose that if they advance or charge,so its not bad if your planning on walking them up the table slowly or deep striking them.

**Strat_N8**

Overdose wrote:And which Hive Fleet fits the best for a Genestealer-focused army?

Kraken is probably the best fleet overall for 'stealers since it plays to their strengths. Hydra is another possibility if you are only interested in spamming Genestealers since it gives them rerolls to hit and their stratagem can respawn slain units from any of the board edges if you set aside the reinforcement points to do so or play PL games. I also like Jormungandr for its deployment flexibility through its stratagem (can use cheaper Raveners/Mawlocs to deepstrike or bring along support through the tunnels), but the adaptation itself isn't quite as helpful for dedicated assault units like Genestealers as it is for shooting or hybrid units.

Also not technically a Hive Fleet, but if you are mainly interested in just Genestealers you might want to look towards the Genestealer Cults.

Overdose wrote:
Hi everyone-
Looking to get into Tyranids. I really like Genestealers and the Broodlord models so that’s the part I’d like to focus mainly on.

If I grab the Start Collecting box, what would be the next suggested upgrade to grab?
(Personally not a huge fan of having horde units...)

If you go Kraken or Leviathan I'd probably look towards some of the winged creatures. Kraken's adaptation gets even better with the Fly keyword since such units are able to act normally on the turn they leave combat and Leviathan likes having fly models around to trigger their stratagem and provide mobility. If you go with Jormungandr, I'd look towards any of the snake-body creatures (Raveners, Trygons,Mawlocs, Venomthropes). Venomthropes aren't an especially great unit on their own, but Jormungandr allows them to make use of their combat capabilities by dropping them at the front lines and the deepstrikers appreciate the -1 to hit bubble they provide. The other models provide alternate deployment options and in the case of Mawlocs extra drops you can use to enable more reserves (Mawlocs can start on the table and burrow into reserve).

Odrankt wrote:
I also have a question, if we give Gstealers the 4+ invul save can we advance and charge using Kraken even though the unit specifically says it loses this ability.

Kraken doesn't allow advance and charge, that ability comes either innately (Genestealers/Broodlord) or from Onslaught. If you take the Extended Carapace upgrade (4+ armor), you can't advance and charge with Genestealers unless you put Onslaught on them.

Emicrania wrote:

I was thinking either to add 2 thornbacks with double devourer on the kraken side, or to max the devourers on the termagants, full up the unit size with HG and maybe have a vanilla fex to eat up some fire.
What do you guys think is best?

Thornbacks don't get double devourers unfortunately, just Talons + Devourers/Deathspitters or Stranglethorn + Devourers/Deathspitters. I'd probably go ahead and add the rest of the devourers and use whatever points you have left to bring more units for redundancy.

**Odrankt**

Eihnlazer wrote:
Odrankt genestealers never get a 4+ invun. If your talking about the +1 armor save from extended carapace you can stack that with the cover save bonus from jormugundyr to have them at 3+ armor save.

They only loose that if they advance or charge,so its not bad if your planning on walking them up the table slowly or deep striking them.

Ah, your right. I thought it was +1 to invul. Thank you for clearing that up.

If we do give them Extended Carapace is the "Advance and Charge" ability totally debunked or does Onslaught allow you to Advance and Charge? (ignore, N8 already answered this. Much appreciated)

Also, is Extended Carapace w/ Jormungandr better then Leviathan Gstealers? While 3+ save in cover is nice I feel 5+ invul w/ 6+ FnP might be a better option. I suppose it depends on the other units of your army and tactics.

**lindsay40k**

Arkengate wrote:
Haven't played in 6 months. I play today, what's meta lately, other than flyrant spam?

Specifically, I'm against deathguard.

I plan on researching more, but, what should I bring? Which strains would be best for this situation?

Coming in the other way, I main CSM, and if my Death Guard were up against bugs I’d be looking to leverage Poxwalkers. I’d use the Stratagem that gives them Character-style protection from being targeted, and the Stratagem that enables them to infect every dead INFANTRY within a short distance, and turn your swarm against you. So either go Nidzilla (which would also mitigate Mortarion’s excellent reaping ability), or else take Kraken Swarmlord and Genestealers (or maybe Hormagaunts) and get a deep insertion force through the cracks and blending those zombies. A smart player won’t rely on the Poxwalker farm, but there’s a lot of ways to build a list around it, and if you can break its back then you may well find a lot of very juicy centres.

In general? Toxin Sacs will be useful. DG survive 33% of unsaved single wound attacks. Make it a 2W hit and you slash that to 11%. Rupturefex is a decent match against their T5 Terminators - though I think they’re Cataphractii, so good luck with those 4++. DTW coverage is probably a smart move, DG have got some decent buff and debuff spells, and a ‘free extra MWs on a 7 to cast’ gimmick. They have a lot of decent DAEMON units, and a recent influx of improved Chaos Daemon allies, so MW generators that ignore invulnerables seem like a good bet. They also have access to hit modifiers, and slow walking speed - so Biovores are a decent call for MW generators as their misses will enable some decent herding (I’m now thinking how that might work with Poxwalker farming). Also Miasma Cannon, which doesn’t care about minuses to hit or high T.

**Marmatag**

Tyrannofex with Acid Spray is also useful, even if it degrades to strength 6. Doesn't roll to hit, has a -1, and does d3 damage. Solid overall weapon for shooting - to hit mid range armies with feel no pain.

**lindsay40k**

Now that I think about it, lots of biovores against DG could be outstanding. Cut through Daemon and Cataphracti saves, and drop firebreaks around Poxwalkers to cut off their ability to drop a long conga line in an inconvenient direction. Move and shoot something with Miasma active and you’re placing a barrier on anything but a 6.

**Badablack**

I played a spore mine heavy list against death guard just the other day. Harpies, Sporocysts, and lots of Biovores. He actually had a pretty strong list against it, having one of the only armies that even gets a save against all the mortal wounds being thrown at him.

While he didn’t take much damage from them, I completely dictated where he was allowed to move and get charges off with masses of mines blocking lanes of traffic. Unfortunately it was a kill points game, for objectives they would easily win the game for me.

**Traceoftoxin**

Mines never count as scoring for KP or scoring yourself objectives though...

**Badablack**

The spores themselves can’t hold objectives, but they keep the opponent from getting near objectives too.

He kicked himself for not bringing one, but if the Deathguard guy had used a Lord of Contagion he would have laughed off all the spore mine shenanigans. That plague aura that does mortal wounds at the start of the movement phase just annihilates all of them.

**NackaNid**

Hey guys, read about the spore-discussion. What do you think about the Meiotic spores? Amazing unit to zone out deepstriker. Each mine does D3 MW on a 2+ and they come in units of 3. Its also sweet that you can deploy them after you know who goes first.

**Amishprn86**

NackaNid wrote:
Hey guys, read about the spore-discussion. What do you think about the Meiotic spores? Amazing unit to zone out deepstriker. Each mine does D3 MW on a 2+ and they come in units of 3. Its also sweet that you can deploy them after you know who goes first.

Only Spore i use for my FA, no reason to use others. Great at Bubble wrap / DS deny and pre-game stratagems.

I have a 9 HT list with 15 Meiotic Spores lol.

**Marmatag**

I managed to get 1st place this weekend. I don't run any spore mines. I'm noticing a lot of meta gunlines/shooty armies aren't bothering with deep strike due to all of the denial. Tau and Oblits are the exception due to the 24" range, but that's extremely hard to deny, it's easier just to leverage LOS.

**Spoletta**

Marmatag wrote:
I managed to get 1st place this weekend. I don't run any spore mines. I'm noticing a lot of meta gunlines/shooty armies aren't bothering with deep strike due to all of the denial. Tau and Oblits are the exception due to the 24" range, but that's extremely hard to deny, it's easier just to leverage LOS.

No DA plasmaceptors? Those tend to be nasty and hard to negate.

**Marmatag**

Spoletta wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
I managed to get 1st place this weekend. I don't run any spore mines. I'm noticing a lot of meta gunlines/shooty armies aren't bothering with deep strike due to all of the denial. Tau and Oblits are the exception due to the 24" range, but that's extremely hard to deny, it's easier just to leverage LOS.

No DA plasmaceptors? Those tend to be nasty and hard to negate.

Plasma Inceptors are cool but i'm not afraid of them. I would be more worried about their Heavy Bolter counterparts.

And DA have plasma everywhere already. Any DA list at this point has plasma heavy weapons in TAC squads or devastator squads, and on bikes.

My list really only has 3 deep strikers. And 2 of those are deep striking because if you don't DS you'll die turn 1. I would GREATLY prefer to start flying hive tyrants on the table in like half my games, but necessity breeds convention.

**slice'n'dice**

Hello - Currently looking at two different list variants for 1,500 points:

List 1

Kraken Battalion Detachment
Flyrant (wings, twin devs, MRC)
Neurothrope
17x Genestealer
18x Genestealer
3x Ripper Swarm

Kronos Battalion (for anti psyker strat)
Flyrant (wings, twin devs, MRC)
Neurothrope
15x Termagant
15x Termagant
30x Termagant (Devourers
Trygon)

OR

List 2
Kraken Battalion Detachment
Flyrant (wings, twin devs, MRC)
Neurothrope
20x Genestealer
20x Genestealer
3x Ripper Swarm

Kronos Battalion (for anti psyker strat)
Flyrant (wings, twin devs, MRC)
Neurothrope
15x Termagant
15x Termagant
15x Termagant
6 Hive Guard

Comments and feedback greatly appreciated - thanks!

**Dynas**

List 2. Trygon is just an expensive taxi. YOu have no anti tank in the other list. Might want to take HVC instead of devs on your Flyrants.

**Marmatag**

The lists seem torn between wanting to be in your face and also wanting to sit & hold objectives. Maybe consider a brigade at 1500 points. You'll have the same overall kind of synergistic list you'd have at 2k... just with less stuff.

**Wilson**

I'm having a thought on what is the best TAC loadout for Hive Tyrants. I know for sure I want to keep costs down, so Monstrous Rending Claws are a given. Wings too.
Toxin Sacs for the extra damage boost in CC. But in terms of weapons load out, I am seeing Heavy Venom cannons as a really good option. I am thinking of loading out 3 flying hive tyrants with HVCs + MRCs instead of Devourers + MRCs. Is this a better option?
its 199pts vs 188pts respectively.

What do people think about one set of devourers compared with HVCs?

**Niiai**

So i libared all my genestealers from the cardbord storage. I am in a levithan pattern. I am also starting GSC in leviathan colour, but a yellow orange inatead of the red. Now i am finishing these 40 genestealera. Should i paint 20 of them as GSC genestealers (orange claws) to take them with a primus, or keep all 40 as leviatan?

**Niiai**

My babies.

**Traceoftoxin**

Marmatag wrote:
The lists seem torn between wanting to be in your face and also wanting to sit & hold objectives. Maybe consider a brigade at 1500 points. You'll have the same overall kind of synergistic list you'd have at 2k... just with less stuff.

His first list is just our list style with 2x15 terms instead of horms. Considering it's 500 pts less than our lists, I think it's a pretty solid place for him to start and see what he likes, then adjust from there.

**babelfish**

Niiai wrote:
So i libared all my genestealers from the cardbord storage. I am in a levithan pattern. I am also starting GSC in leviathan colour, but a yellow orange inatead of the red. Now i am finishing these 40 genestealera. Should i paint 20 of them as GSC genestealers (orange claws) to take them with a primus, or keep all 40 as leviatan?

Honestly I can see you wanting both, depending on what else you are running.

I would be inclined to paint them all in Leviathan, then do 20 more, then run them up the board with some Broodlords and Malenthropes, because 60+ 'stealers is crazy fun in the sun. Maybe splash some Hive Guard and Neurothropes, it would be good times.

**Marmatag**

Traceoftoxin wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
The lists seem torn between wanting to be in your face and also wanting to sit & hold objectives. Maybe consider a brigade at 1500 points. You'll have the same overall kind of synergistic list you'd have at 2k... just with less stuff.

His first list is just our list style with 2x15 terms instead of horms. Considering it's 500 pts less than our lists, I think it's a pretty solid place for him to start and see what he likes, then adjust from there.

Hormagants win me games with their 6" pile in and 6" consolidate. I took first in a tournament this last weekend because of them being able to shut down 4 shooting units in a pivotal turn 3.

**Traceoftoxin**

Marmatag wrote:
Traceoftoxin wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
The lists seem torn between wanting to be in your face and also wanting to sit & hold objectives. Maybe consider a brigade at 1500 points. You'll have the same overall kind of synergistic list you'd have at 2k... just with less stuff.

His first list is just our list style with 2x15 terms instead of horms. Considering it's 500 pts less than our lists, I think it's a pretty solid place for him to start and see what he likes, then adjust from there.

Hormagants win me games with their 6" pile in and 6" consolidate. I took first in a tournament this last weekend because of them being able to shut down 4 shooting units in a pivotal turn 3.

Preaching to the choir.

I'm just saying, your critique was that his lists were mixed between forward and back, while I didn't see it that way at all. To me, it looks like he has the same strategy as us. Just short a quarter of an army.

500 pts is a huge difference, if you were to trim 500 pts off your list, where would you start?

**slice'n'dice**

Thanks for the advice - much appreciated!

Looks like list 2 is probably the best place to start. My original thoughts with the termagants was to use them to 'fill the space' between my board edge and my stealers to prevent people trying to deepstrike behind my line and divide my force (as well as capping any objectives in my half of the board). Perhaps more assault pressure is better though - I could easily swap the gants for hormies. If I did that, would you recommend swapping the 2nd detachment from Kronos to something else? (Kraken/other?), or keep Kronos to shut down psychic powers that might ruin my day/improve the return on the Hive Guard?

My Flyrants are magnetised, so any weapon loadout is possible. The heavy venom cannon always feels a bit naf when I use it - usually only putting out 1-2 hits and only 1 wound going through. I feel like I'm better off going in with claws for anti tank then trying to shoot them.

**lindsay40k**

...I’ve just noticed that Brood Brothers gives us access to Sanctioned Psykers, Crusaders, Ministorum Priests, and Ratlings.

People will not be expecting 2++ saves, and ten sniper rifles against which they can’t return fire.